View Poll Results: Helmet wearing habits?
I've never worn a bike helmet
178
10.66%
I used to wear a helmet, but have stopped
94
5.63%
I've always worn a helmet
648
38.80%
I didn't wear a helmet, but now do
408
24.43%
I sometimes wear a helmet depending on the conditions
342
20.48%
Voters: 1670. You may not vote on this poll
The helmet thread
#5001
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Copenhagen
Posts: 1,832
Bikes: A load of ancient, old and semi-vintage bikes of divers sorts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Right. And the bare head brigade never shifts the goalposts...
"I've never hit my head in a fall, so I don't need a helmet."
"You should learn to ride better so you won't crash."
"Your money is better spent on a class on how to fall better, than on a helmet."
"A helmet has never been proven to protect you."
"Your helmet actually puts you in more danger."
"The anecdotal tales of how your helmet saved you from injury is invalid, but my anecdotal tales of how many times I've fallen and survived without a helmet is perfectly valid."
"Any studies you post that might say anything positive about helmets were clearly done by a bias group of helmeteers, but the studies I've dug up that say helmets are worthless were performed by open-minded, fact-finding scientists."
"I may insult every person who posts an opposing view, but I don't really care if they wear a helmet."
"Wear a helmet if you want, but just don't make it a law. Yea, what I really care about is the liberty of being able to choose for myself. I know not a single person in this thread has posted any support for a mandatory helmet law, but if anyone thinks any of my previously listed reasons are invalid, then they must be posting in here because they have a secret MHL agenda."
"I've never hit my head in a fall, so I don't need a helmet."
"You should learn to ride better so you won't crash."
"Your money is better spent on a class on how to fall better, than on a helmet."
"A helmet has never been proven to protect you."
"Your helmet actually puts you in more danger."
"The anecdotal tales of how your helmet saved you from injury is invalid, but my anecdotal tales of how many times I've fallen and survived without a helmet is perfectly valid."
"Any studies you post that might say anything positive about helmets were clearly done by a bias group of helmeteers, but the studies I've dug up that say helmets are worthless were performed by open-minded, fact-finding scientists."
"I may insult every person who posts an opposing view, but I don't really care if they wear a helmet."
"Wear a helmet if you want, but just don't make it a law. Yea, what I really care about is the liberty of being able to choose for myself. I know not a single person in this thread has posted any support for a mandatory helmet law, but if anyone thinks any of my previously listed reasons are invalid, then they must be posting in here because they have a secret MHL agenda."
"A helmet has never been proven to protect you."
"The anecdotal tales of how your helmet saved you from injury is invalid, but my anecdotal tales of how many times I've fallen and survived without a helmet is perfectly valid."
And both are perfectly correct. The first one by way of facts, the second by way of logic (or let's say: the logics of scientific method).
#5002
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 6,401
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 13 Times
in
13 Posts
I think maybe MMACH5 doesn't know what "shifting the goalposts" means.
Regardless:
"I've never hit my head in a fall, so I don't need a helmet." - Illustrates the point that some of us fall so rarely that wearing protective gear doesn't make much sense.
"You should learn to ride better so you won't crash." - Usually said in reply to the guy who tells us he's had his life saved by his helmet a dozen times.
"Your money is better spent on a class on how to fall better, than on a helmet." - I haven't heard much about "falling better". "Riding better", maybe - and I would definitely prefer not to fall while bare-headed than to fall regularly with a helmet.
"A helmet has never been proven to protect you." - Essentially factual.
"Your helmet actually puts you in more danger." - One "anti-helmet" argument I don't much agree with, though I do think there is compelling evidence re. risk compensation.
"The anecdotal tales of how your helmet saved you from injury is invalid, but my anecdotal tales of how many times I've fallen and survived without a helmet is perfectly valid." - I can prove beyond a doubt that I have never been saved from injury by a bicycle helmet, because I have never hit my head while wearing a bicycle helmet. But it's essentially impossible to prove that a helmet made a significant difference in a fall, because we can't reproduce the accident with and without the helmet.
"Any studies you post that might say anything positive about helmets were clearly done by a bias group of helmeteers, but the studies I've dug up that say helmets are worthless were performed by open-minded, fact-finding scientists." - I'm not sure anyone has made that argument. The argument is that the statistics are all over the place.
"I may insult every person who posts an opposing view, but I don't really care if they wear a helmet." - Are you trying to single out a particular group here? Because that behavior seems nearly universal on this thread...
"Wear a helmet if you want, but just don't make it a law. Yea, what I really care about is the liberty of being able to choose for myself. I know not a single person in this thread has posted any support for a mandatory helmet law, but if anyone thinks any of my previously listed reasons are invalid, then they must be posting in here because they have a secret MHL agenda." - Huh?
Regardless:
"I've never hit my head in a fall, so I don't need a helmet." - Illustrates the point that some of us fall so rarely that wearing protective gear doesn't make much sense.
"You should learn to ride better so you won't crash." - Usually said in reply to the guy who tells us he's had his life saved by his helmet a dozen times.
"Your money is better spent on a class on how to fall better, than on a helmet." - I haven't heard much about "falling better". "Riding better", maybe - and I would definitely prefer not to fall while bare-headed than to fall regularly with a helmet.
"A helmet has never been proven to protect you." - Essentially factual.
"Your helmet actually puts you in more danger." - One "anti-helmet" argument I don't much agree with, though I do think there is compelling evidence re. risk compensation.
"The anecdotal tales of how your helmet saved you from injury is invalid, but my anecdotal tales of how many times I've fallen and survived without a helmet is perfectly valid." - I can prove beyond a doubt that I have never been saved from injury by a bicycle helmet, because I have never hit my head while wearing a bicycle helmet. But it's essentially impossible to prove that a helmet made a significant difference in a fall, because we can't reproduce the accident with and without the helmet.
"Any studies you post that might say anything positive about helmets were clearly done by a bias group of helmeteers, but the studies I've dug up that say helmets are worthless were performed by open-minded, fact-finding scientists." - I'm not sure anyone has made that argument. The argument is that the statistics are all over the place.
"I may insult every person who posts an opposing view, but I don't really care if they wear a helmet." - Are you trying to single out a particular group here? Because that behavior seems nearly universal on this thread...
"Wear a helmet if you want, but just don't make it a law. Yea, what I really care about is the liberty of being able to choose for myself. I know not a single person in this thread has posted any support for a mandatory helmet law, but if anyone thinks any of my previously listed reasons are invalid, then they must be posting in here because they have a secret MHL agenda." - Huh?
Last edited by Six jours; 04-10-13 at 08:13 PM.
#5003
Cycle Dallas
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Land of Gar, TX
Posts: 3,777
Bikes: Dulcinea--2017 Kona Rove & a few others
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 197 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 10 Times
in
5 Posts
My interpretation of "shifting the goalposts" is that when you make an argument and it doesn't seem to get any traction, you come up with another argument in the hopes that it does gain traction. (i.e. - I can't score any points kicking the ball there. Maybe I could score, if the goalpost was over here.)
And I'm pretty sure that's what is going on in this thread.
(edit: "moving" to "shifting")
And I'm pretty sure that's what is going on in this thread.
(edit: "moving" to "shifting")
Last edited by MMACH 5; 04-11-13 at 09:57 AM.
#5004
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: NE Indiana
Posts: 8,686
Bikes: 2020 Masi Giramondo 700c; 2013 Lynskey Peloton; 1992 Giant Rincon; 1989 Dawes needs parts; 1985 Trek 660; 1985 Fuji Club; 1984 Schwinn Voyager; 1984 Miyata 612; 1977 Raleigh Competition GS
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1125 Post(s)
Liked 249 Times
in
200 Posts
Come on one and all, I want to read more babble.
#5005
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 932
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
My interpretation of "shifting the goalposts" is that when you make an argument and it doesn't seem to get any traction, you come up with another argument in the hopes that it does gain traction. (i.e. - I can't score any points kicking the ball there. Maybe I could score, if the goalpost was over here.)
And I'm pretty sure that's what is going on in this thread.
(edit: "moving" to "shifting")
And I'm pretty sure that's what is going on in this thread.
(edit: "moving" to "shifting")
#5006
Cycle Dallas
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Land of Gar, TX
Posts: 3,777
Bikes: Dulcinea--2017 Kona Rove & a few others
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 197 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 10 Times
in
5 Posts
Six jours said I didn't know the meaning of "shifting the goalposts."
I replied with my interpretation of the phrase.
Now, you made me go look it up:
"Moving the goalposts (or shifting the goalposts) is a metaphor meaning to change the criterion (goal) of a process or competition while still in progress, in such a way that the new goal offers one side an intentional advantage or disadvantage."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moving_the_goalposts
Please explain how I didn't know the meaning.
I replied with my interpretation of the phrase.
Now, you made me go look it up:
"Moving the goalposts (or shifting the goalposts) is a metaphor meaning to change the criterion (goal) of a process or competition while still in progress, in such a way that the new goal offers one side an intentional advantage or disadvantage."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moving_the_goalposts
Please explain how I didn't know the meaning.
#5007
Senior Member
I ride both with a helmet and without, depending mostly on mood. Interestingly, I have on several occasions been yelled at to wear a helmet by hemet clad cyclists, never have I been yelled at to get rid of a helmet by bare-headed cyclists. I think this is illustrative of the attitude of the personalities of the wear/don't wear crowds.
#5008
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
Posts: 85
Bikes: a lot... mostly vintage, one vintage made of plastic, er carbon
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I voted "always" but the caveat is the so called helmets we wore in the 70s were slightly more then leather (or pleather) thongs on our heads...
#5009
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Bay Area, Calif.
Posts: 7,239
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 659 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 7 Times
in
6 Posts
Six jours said I didn't know the meaning of "shifting the goalposts."
I replied with my interpretation of the phrase.
Now, you made me go look it up:
"Moving the goalposts (or shifting the goalposts) is a metaphor meaning to change the criterion (goal) of a process or competition while still in progress, in such a way that the new goal offers one side an intentional advantage or disadvantage."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moving_the_goalposts
Please explain how I didn't know the meaning.
I replied with my interpretation of the phrase.
Now, you made me go look it up:
"Moving the goalposts (or shifting the goalposts) is a metaphor meaning to change the criterion (goal) of a process or competition while still in progress, in such a way that the new goal offers one side an intentional advantage or disadvantage."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moving_the_goalposts
Please explain how I didn't know the meaning.
Your previous statement was: "My interpretation of "shifting the goalposts" is that when you make an argument and it doesn't seem to get any traction, you come up with another argument in the hopes that it does gain traction." I.e. just raising additional arguments in support of ones original point. That's not a case of 'shifting the goalposts' since the point of the argument is unchanged.
Here would be an example of shifting the goalposts in the helmet argument:
A: You should wear a bike helmet since otherwise you have a much greater chance of being killed in an accident. Points to TTR study showing 85% protection against head injuries.
[Original goal is to reduce fatality risk.]
B: Counters with studies that show the probability of fatality was unchanged in countries that greatly increased helmet use. Says the TTR study only looked at injury cases (many of which were minor), not fatalities.
A: Well, even if the fatality rate is unchanged you should still wear a helmet since it'll cut down on scrapes and bruises to your head.
[Note that the goal has shifted from saving lives to reducing more minor injuries.]
B: But if the goal is to reduce cuts, scrapes, and bruises, then knee and elbow pads would be more useful since those are more often injured parts of the body in bike crashes. Why insist that we should wear helmets but not be concerned about protecting those areas?
A: I'm not as concerned about knee and elbow injuries since they're very unlikely to kill me, but a head injury might.
[Goal has shifted back to reducing fatalities - and the argument can continue to go in circles.]
#5010
Cycle Dallas
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Land of Gar, TX
Posts: 3,777
Bikes: Dulcinea--2017 Kona Rove & a few others
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 197 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 10 Times
in
5 Posts
Ok.
Your previous statement was: "My interpretation of "shifting the goalposts" is that when you make an argument and it doesn't seem to get any traction, you come up with another argument in the hopes that it does gain traction." I.e. just raising additional arguments in support of ones original point. That's not a case of 'shifting the goalposts' since the point of the argument is unchanged.
Here would be an example of shifting the goalposts in the helmet argument:
A: You should wear a bike helmet since otherwise you have a much greater chance of being killed in an accident. Points to TTR study showing 85% protection against head injuries.
[Original goal is to reduce fatality risk.]
B: Counters with studies that show the probability of fatality was unchanged in countries that greatly increased helmet use. Says the TTR study only looked at injury cases (many of which were minor), not fatalities.
A: Well, even if the fatality rate is unchanged you should still wear a helmet since it'll cut down on scrapes and bruises to your head.
[Note that the goal has shifted from saving lives to reducing more minor injuries.]
B: But if the goal is to reduce cuts, scrapes, and bruises, then knee and elbow pads would be more useful since those are more often injured parts of the body in bike crashes. Why insist that we should wear helmets but not be concerned about protecting those areas?
A: I'm not as concerned about knee and elbow injuries since they're very unlikely to kill me, but a head injury might.
[Goal has shifted back to reducing fatalities - and the argument can continue to go in circles.]
Your previous statement was: "My interpretation of "shifting the goalposts" is that when you make an argument and it doesn't seem to get any traction, you come up with another argument in the hopes that it does gain traction." I.e. just raising additional arguments in support of ones original point. That's not a case of 'shifting the goalposts' since the point of the argument is unchanged.
Here would be an example of shifting the goalposts in the helmet argument:
A: You should wear a bike helmet since otherwise you have a much greater chance of being killed in an accident. Points to TTR study showing 85% protection against head injuries.
[Original goal is to reduce fatality risk.]
B: Counters with studies that show the probability of fatality was unchanged in countries that greatly increased helmet use. Says the TTR study only looked at injury cases (many of which were minor), not fatalities.
A: Well, even if the fatality rate is unchanged you should still wear a helmet since it'll cut down on scrapes and bruises to your head.
[Note that the goal has shifted from saving lives to reducing more minor injuries.]
B: But if the goal is to reduce cuts, scrapes, and bruises, then knee and elbow pads would be more useful since those are more often injured parts of the body in bike crashes. Why insist that we should wear helmets but not be concerned about protecting those areas?
A: I'm not as concerned about knee and elbow injuries since they're very unlikely to kill me, but a head injury might.
[Goal has shifted back to reducing fatalities - and the argument can continue to go in circles.]
Don't wear a helmet because you shouldn't hit your head <not much traction so shift to> don't wear a helmet because it won't protect you <not much traction so shift to> don't wear a helmet because it will harm you <not much traction so shift to> don't wear a helmet because I never have and I'm fine <THE BIG SHIFT> okay, wear a helmet, but don't tell me I have to do the same
Each shift is made to try and convince someone with an opposing view to agree with the person arguing. When shifting the goals doesn't seem to get anywhere, then make a big shift to a goal that has already been achieved (MHLs). Since nobody on either side of this thread has mentioned supporting mandatory helmet laws, then the person arguing against them gets to sit back in satisfaction because obviously they've finally shifted their goals to where nobody is disputing them.
I would concede that perhaps the only actual "shifting of the goalposts" comes when someone decides not to argue for or against helmet use but against MHLs.
Let me see if this makes more sense:
-----cyclists log into BF.net-----
Helmeteers' goal is to convince riders to wear helmets.
Bare-Head Brigade's goal is to convince riders not to wear helmets.
-----Argue for 200 pages-----
Helmeteers' goal is to convince riders to wear helmets.
Bare-Head Brigade's goal is to convince riders not to support mandatory helmet laws (which we don't).
Who has shifted their goalpost?
#5011
Banned.
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Uncertain
Posts: 8,651
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times
in
2 Posts
I'm one of the most anti-helmet people I know, partly because I suspect that helmets may actually increase the chances of brain (as opposed to scalp) injury but mainly because I think encouraging helmet use deters people from cycling by falsely portraying a very safe activity as a dangerous one. But even I don't spend my time trying to persuade people not to wear one. I'm happy for people to make their own choice.
#5012
Banned
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Lincoln Ne
Posts: 9,924
Bikes: RANS Stratus TerraTrike Tour II
Mentioned: 46 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3352 Post(s)
Liked 1,056 Times
in
635 Posts
The whine against helmets just goes on and on. It sound like an F-16 getting ready for take off.
About the only point that the anti helmet league has is that in a crash a helmet "might" cause stiction and strain a cyclist neck. In what percentage of crashes would that happen. Can anyone post a real instance where a doctor or hospital said that was the case?
About the only point that the anti helmet league has is that in a crash a helmet "might" cause stiction and strain a cyclist neck. In what percentage of crashes would that happen. Can anyone post a real instance where a doctor or hospital said that was the case?
#5013
Senior Member
The whine against helmets just goes on and on. It sound like an F-16 getting ready for take off.
About the only point that the anti helmet league has is that in a crash a helmet "might" cause stiction and strain a cyclist neck. In what percentage of crashes would that happen. Can anyone post a real instance where a doctor or hospital said that was the case?
About the only point that the anti helmet league has is that in a crash a helmet "might" cause stiction and strain a cyclist neck. In what percentage of crashes would that happen. Can anyone post a real instance where a doctor or hospital said that was the case?
I'm perfectly happy and quiet and whineless and dialed in on when and where and why I wear helmets.
I don't wear one probably 75% of the time. I do NOT wear when I'm biking my quiet country road a half mile to my mother's house in a seersuckle ensemble and panama hat in the summer heat. I don't wear one on Gatsy and Tweed rides (which are quite a few of my normal small town urban "night out" rides). I don't wear one on mellow group rides when it's really hot'n'humid since they give me heat-stroke -- I'm happy to accept the risk of head-injury from the crashes I never have versus that definite "every time" condition.
I wear em when mtbiking or when on fast group rides or on hilly paved rides.
I can see having kids wear them, especially while they're training or before they're skilled.
I don't wear em when XC skiing even though my routes are highly technical. However, I'm considering it for some icier/hardpack days.
I can see why they're used sometimes in alpine skiing and I've worn them lately when doing so.
I can't see why they aren't used by all car drivers.
I can't see why they aren't used by anyone who has balance/fitness/agility injury-prone issues -- certainly the elderly but today, what, a good 10% of younger people as well. I know quite a few awkward people who are actually at sizable risk for head injury due to their lack of personal health maintenance (obese, sedentary) -- these are people who've already racked up sizable injuries due to their inclination to topple. Similarly, I see occasional riders (more in club rides than on race rides) who are crash prone. All such should lid-up. The folks I know seem to have at least one injurious dead-weight fall a year as it is. Tendons/bones are also hugely at risk. It might be good if they always wore braces and pads as well. These are the people that America is fast filling up with. They should do many things -- well, two things: eat less and allbody exercise an hour a day. But because they won't they'll ruin the nation soon.
I've had quite a few power-mad peers yell at me and shun me and cause a ruckus when I haven't worn a helmet -- they've strictly been the whiners. Very embarrassing every time for them. Never once helpful. Like, they've never reminded me when I've forgotten and really wanted to wear one. They've definitely, every time, felt free to HASSLE me when I've explicitly made decisions to not wear them for good reasons which had nothing to do with them other than encroaching on their sensed right to BOSS ME for whatever reason.
I note that these whiners come in two types: *lycra-bikers who use bikes for one purpose only in their lives (fitness and/or racing and/or "serious" riding); *and urban socialist "politically assertive" types. Both are FRINGE types who can't understand the reality of normal people who use bikes for a variety of purposes in a variety of ways. Since I live in the 'burbs I mostly encounter the first type -- I've never seen any of those people use a bike for more than one reason.
I'm still looking for good comebacks for people who yell (whine) at me about not wearing a helmet.
Last edited by JeffOYB; 04-12-13 at 07:52 AM.
#5014
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Beaverton, Oregon
Posts: 1,914
Bikes: Rans Stratus, Trek 1420, Rivendell Rambouillet
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
There are some newer studies out:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23570703
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23377086
John
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23570703
...BACKGROUND: Head injury is the leading cause of death and long term disability from bicycle injuries and may be prevented by helmet wearing. We compared the pattern of injury in major trauma victims resulting from bicyclist injury admitted to hospitals in the State of Victoria, Australia and South-West Netherlands, with respective high and low prevalence of helmet use among bicyclists...
...CONCLUSION: Bicycle related major trauma admissions in the Netherlands trauma centre, and in South-West Netherlands had a higher mortality rate associated with a higher percentage of serious head injuries compared with that in the Australian trauma centre and the State of Victoria.
...CONCLUSION: Bicycle related major trauma admissions in the Netherlands trauma centre, and in South-West Netherlands had a higher mortality rate associated with a higher percentage of serious head injuries compared with that in the Australian trauma centre and the State of Victoria.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23377086
...Helmet use was associated with reduced risk of head injury in bicycle collisions with motor vehicles of up to 74%, and the more severe the injury considered, the greater the reduction. This was also found to be true for particular head injuries such as skull fractures, intracranial injury and open head wounds. Around one half of children and adolescents less than 19 years were not wearing a helmet, an issue that needs to be addressed in light of the demonstrated effectiveness of helmets. Non-helmeted cyclists were more likely to display risky riding behaviour, however, were less likely to cycle in risky areas; the net result of which was that they were more likely to be involved in more severe crashes.
#5015
Member
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: SE Louisiana
Posts: 44
Bikes: Trek Lime Light
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Has anyone's mind/opinion been changed by this continual rhetoric on pro/con helmet?
If it has, please tell us what it was that sent you to the "other" side....
If it has, please tell us what it was that sent you to the "other" side....
#5016
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: NE Indiana
Posts: 8,686
Bikes: 2020 Masi Giramondo 700c; 2013 Lynskey Peloton; 1992 Giant Rincon; 1989 Dawes needs parts; 1985 Trek 660; 1985 Fuji Club; 1984 Schwinn Voyager; 1984 Miyata 612; 1977 Raleigh Competition GS
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1125 Post(s)
Liked 249 Times
in
200 Posts
There are some newer studies out:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23570703
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23377086
John
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23570703
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23377086
John
#5017
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 6,401
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 13 Times
in
13 Posts
Are we having fun yet?
#5018
Bicikli Huszár
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Fresno, CA
Posts: 2,116
Bikes: '95 Novara Randonee
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
MMACH 5, as others have pointed out, hypocrisy isn't the same as shifting the goalposts. Shifting the goalposts is "There is no reason not to wear a helmet". "Yes there is, they are inconvenient for some people, and uncomfortable for others". "Well, that isn't a good reason to sacrifice your safety". Notice that the goal presented shifted from "You don't have a reason for what you are doing" to "I don't agree with the reasons you have chosen for doing it". A common cousin is "No True Scotsman". The Scotsman open the paper to see a serial killer on the loose in London, to which he comments "No Scotsman would do such a thing". The next morning he opens the paper to find a mass murderer captured in Edinburgh, at which he comments, "well, No true Scotsman would do such a thing". It redefines what you are arguing against after the fact... it creates an unassailable argument, because whenever counter points are presented, they are just "re-defined" to not matter.
Sorry if this sounds semantical, but it's an important point; people try and claim there are no reasons not to wear a helmet, and this is empirically false... people have valid reasons for not wearing them, they just disagree with the reasons. That's two way different things.
Sorry if this sounds semantical, but it's an important point; people try and claim there are no reasons not to wear a helmet, and this is empirically false... people have valid reasons for not wearing them, they just disagree with the reasons. That's two way different things.
#5019
Bicikli Huszár
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Fresno, CA
Posts: 2,116
Bikes: '95 Novara Randonee
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I was. Or rather, the debate led me to the research, which I felt was compelling enough to convince me that helmets don't really matter all that much in terms of safety. Since I don't see the safety benefit as all that great, I forgo the pain of having another thing to lug around with me everywhere, since my bike is my transportation most of the time.
#5020
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Beaverton, Oregon
Posts: 1,914
Bikes: Rans Stratus, Trek 1420, Rivendell Rambouillet
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by John C. Ratliff
There are some newer studies out:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23570703
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23377086
John
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23570703
...BACKGROUND: Head injury is the leading cause of death and long term disability from bicycle injuries and may be prevented by helmet wearing. We compared the pattern of injury in major trauma victims resulting from bicyclist injury admitted to hospitals in the State of Victoria, Australia and South-West Netherlands, with respective high and low prevalence of helmet use among bicyclists...
...CONCLUSION: Bicycle related major trauma admissions in the Netherlands trauma centre, and in South-West Netherlands had a higher mortality rate associated with a higher percentage of serious head injuries compared with that in the Australian trauma centre and the State of Victoria.
...CONCLUSION: Bicycle related major trauma admissions in the Netherlands trauma centre, and in South-West Netherlands had a higher mortality rate associated with a higher percentage of serious head injuries compared with that in the Australian trauma centre and the State of Victoria.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23377086
...Helmet use was associated with reduced risk of head injury in bicycle collisions with motor vehicles of up to 74%, and the more severe the injury considered, the greater the reduction. This was also found to be true for particular head injuries such as skull fractures, intracranial injury and open head wounds. Around one half of children and adolescents less than 19 years were not wearing a helmet, an issue that needs to be addressed in light of the demonstrated effectiveness of helmets. Non-helmeted cyclists were more likely to display risky riding behaviour, however, were less likely to cycle in risky areas; the net result of which was that they were more likely to be involved in more severe crashes.
John
#5021
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 922
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
rekmeyata
That is what is mainly the problem in the world today. Common sense and logic is tossed aside by the people that "know better". Common sense and logic says that an accident can happen any time. That is true no matter how good of a cyclist you think you are. The unexpected accident WILL happen, and it will happen to anyone. That is why I am prepared and wear a helmet.
That is what is mainly the problem in the world today. Common sense and logic is tossed aside by the people that "know better". Common sense and logic says that an accident can happen any time. That is true no matter how good of a cyclist you think you are. The unexpected accident WILL happen, and it will happen to anyone. That is why I am prepared and wear a helmet.
#5022
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 922
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Have you read either of these studies John? In the past whenever you've posted like this you've not actually read the paper.
If you have ... which I doubt ... what do you make of the finding that following the logic of "small sample size correlation suggests cause" you would have to also conclude that helmets _caused_ Australians to suffer more severe injuries to other body parts:
Does that not suggest to you that perhaps looking at correlations obtained from small sample sizes is problematic?
Do you remember this point being made to you years ago?
In addition for all the "helmut saaaayyvveed mah life" people... read it again ... a bit more carefully than John... spoiler below
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
[quote]
If you have ... which I doubt ... what do you make of the finding that following the logic of "small sample size correlation suggests cause" you would have to also conclude that helmets _caused_ Australians to suffer more severe injuries to other body parts:
The other body regions demonstrated significant differences in the AIS scores with significantly more serious injuries (AIS≥3) of the chest, abdominal and extremities regions in the Australian group.
Does that not suggest to you that perhaps looking at correlations obtained from small sample sizes is problematic?
Do you remember this point being made to you years ago?
In addition for all the "helmut saaaayyvveed mah life" people... read it again ... a bit more carefully than John... spoiler below
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
After adjusting for age, mechanism of injury, GCS and head injury severity in both hospitals, there was no significant difference in mortality
.
.
.
.
.
.
[quote]
Last edited by RazrSkutr; 04-13-13 at 07:41 PM. Reason: forgot mortality
#5023
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 922
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
#5024
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: NE Indiana
Posts: 8,686
Bikes: 2020 Masi Giramondo 700c; 2013 Lynskey Peloton; 1992 Giant Rincon; 1989 Dawes needs parts; 1985 Trek 660; 1985 Fuji Club; 1984 Schwinn Voyager; 1984 Miyata 612; 1977 Raleigh Competition GS
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1125 Post(s)
Liked 249 Times
in
200 Posts
Ok, now I'm confused, who's agreeing with who? Who's disagreeing with the ones that agree? Who's agreeing with the disagreeing people? Where is this headed...pun intended.
#5025
Galveston County Texas
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: In The Wind
Posts: 33,221
Bikes: 02 GTO, 2011 Magnum
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1350 Post(s)
Liked 1,243 Times
in
621 Posts
I was riding toward a parking lot handicapped ramp, When Crash bang (what was that).
Dark marks were from the tire.
Front tire hit the end of a Car Stop. I went down and my head hit the top of The Car Stop.
__________________
Fred "The Real Fred"
Fred "The Real Fred"