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Advocacy & Safety Cyclists should expect and demand safe accommodation on every public road, just as do all other users. Discuss your bicycle advocacy and safety concerns here.

View Poll Results: Helmet wearing habits?
I've never worn a bike helmet 178 10.66%
I used to wear a helmet, but have stopped 94 5.63%
I've always worn a helmet 648 38.80%
I didn't wear a helmet, but now do 408 24.43%
I sometimes wear a helmet depending on the conditions 342 20.48%
Voters: 1670. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 12-18-13, 10:52 AM   #6551
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If you're talking to me, that was pretty much my point. (I was asking if he agreed with something another person wrote).

I said earlier that it's safer to NOT bash your head on the ground in the first place, and if person has a low probability of doing so then a helmet is pointless. And that we should respect people's own evaluations of their risks and capabilities. That respect should be extended to people on any side of the issue IMO.
Then we're OK with each other's decision. I was responding directly to the "wouldn't you agree.... are they vain....." you stated in your opening premise.

All too many of those who chose to wear helmets look down on those of us who don't, as ignorant neanderthals. (Many of) the helmeted simply cannot accept that it's possible to make a reasoned decision that's different that theirs.

I don't know how often you hear "what's that on your head?" or Yo! planning to fall?" or whatever, but non helmet wearers are constantly assaulted by "where's your helmet?" from sanctimonious helmet wearers. Nowadays I hear it from non cyclists as well. Mothers yell at me because I'm a bad example for their children, and motorists feel free to add to the chorus, as they pass.

Feel free to "educate" newbies about helmets, but when you see someone riding in control, who looks like maybe he's experienced, figure that by now he's heard it all. If he chooses to forgo a helmet it's a reasoned decision, so stifle the urge to proselytize.
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Old 12-18-13, 10:55 AM   #6552
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BTW we all pay dearly thru the nose in the price of a car for all the safety equiptment that the Fed b'crat nannies ordain that we must buy on our cars.
Darn them to heck. My baseball cap could be marketed and sold at every zoot suit LBS as a $200 SuperDuper Helmet with Head SavingTechnology™ if it weren't for those evil b'crat nannies and their stupid rules and regulations.
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Old 12-18-13, 11:00 AM   #6553
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Really-----------what is the bottom line here of riders that dont want to wear helmets. Are they too vain, have a hairy chested idea they are such good rider, or simply dont understand the fact that the unexpected can happen to anyone. If a helmet only prevents road rash to the head isnt it worth wearing one.
I hate to get personal, but I find this impassioned helmet safety argument coming from someone who chooses to ride on roads with his head carefully positioned at car bumper or grill height somewhat paradoxical.
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Old 12-18-13, 11:03 AM   #6554
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Then we're OK with each other's decision. I was responding directly with the "wouldn't you agree.... are they vain....." you stated in your opening premise. ...
Ah I see - you didn't see the string of four posts and took it out of context. That was more a closing statement than an opening premise.

I asked 350httr if he wouldn't agree with something quoted from another writer (rydabent). Because, although both were advocating helmet use, 350htr had a more balanced viewpoint than the other writer. I'm asking if he disagreed with what rydabent wrote. He did disagree with it. You disagree with it. I disagree with it.

You're arguing with me, evidently basing it on what you imagined that I probably wrote. I'm on the same side as you, having made the same arguments. Geeze, it must be something about this thread.

Does it help if I put it this way?

So in principle you would not agree with:
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Are they too vain, have a hairy chested idea they are such good rider, or simply dont understand the fact that the unexpected can happen to anyone. If a helmet only prevents road rash to the head isnt it worth wearing one.

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Old 12-18-13, 11:13 AM   #6555
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Ah I see - you didn't see the string of four posts and took it out of context. That was more a closing statement than an opening premise.

I asked 350httr if he wouldn't agree with something quoted from another writer (rydabent). ...
Right, I didn't see the post you referenced, nor do I try to remember who's who on this thread.

However as an aside, opening a statement with "wouldn't you agree...." is usually a rhetorical device of persuasion, implying that the following is assumed true. Which is what I inferred.

If the intent is that what follows in untrue, a negative context, such as "wouldn't you disagree....." or otherwise indicating that what followed was a falsehood, or that you as the writer disagreed with it would be clearer.
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Old 12-18-13, 11:17 AM   #6556
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But I said "you wouldn't agree", not "wouldn't you agree" as you have it. Rhetorical device of persuasion implying the DISagreeing is assumed true. Cheap trick yes, but you've reversed the wording.
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Old 12-18-13, 11:24 AM   #6557
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But I said "you wouldn't agree", not "wouldn't you agree" as you have it. Rhetorical device of persuasion implying the DISagreeing is assumed true. Cheap trick yes, but you've reversed the wording.
You're right. I think I may have "minority paranoia" on this thread and read everything defensively. In this case it had me resequencing the words to produced the implication I expected.
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Old 12-18-13, 12:25 PM   #6558
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You're right. I think I may have "minority paranoia" on this thread and read everything defensively. In this case it had me resequencing the words to produced the implication I expected.
I was about to say I should be more clear. It's this thread, it's an unhealthy atmosphere.
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Old 12-18-13, 12:30 PM   #6559
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.... It's this thread, it's an unhealthy atmosphere.
Kind of like that on Venus. This thread needs an "I don't wear a helmet" icon or emoticon so we know who we are.
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Old 12-18-13, 12:41 PM   #6560
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Kind of like that on Venus. This thread needs an "I don't wear a helmet" icon or emoticon so we know who we are.
But if you don't wear your space suit helmet on Venus you would die for sure... Come on ADMIT it, it's better to wear your helmet sometimes...
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Old 12-18-13, 12:41 PM   #6561
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Kind of like that on Venus. This thread needs an "I don't wear a helmet" icon or emoticon so we know who we are.
I actually find this to be he case with almost all of the A&S forum. Its nigh on impossible to recall who is coming form what angle especially when related to VC, lane taking, bike lane, no lane, Copenhagen, bike paths, MUPs and so on. Then there is the general argumentative tone and I cannot keep up with who is what and what is who. Its like a dark bramble bush infested forest at dusk.

I've seen more than one case of two people arguing the same point from the same side for multiple posts here, so you are not alone at all FB.
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Old 12-18-13, 12:43 PM   #6562
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But if you don't wear your space suit helmet on Venus you would die for sure...
Are you sure about that? Or is it more A&S dogma? Is there a peer reviewed study you can cite? You are just making this up, admit it.
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Old 12-18-13, 12:45 PM   #6563
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But if you don't wear your space suit helmet on Venus you would die for sure... Come on ADMIT it, it's better to wear your helmet sometimes...
Do I need to scroll the entire thread to decide if the second part is facetious or not? I'll just assume it is.
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Old 12-18-13, 12:46 PM   #6564
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Its like a dark bramble bush infested forest at dusk.

.
With feral dogs, bear traps and land mines.
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Old 12-18-13, 12:47 PM   #6565
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Are you sure about that? Or is it more A&S dogma? Is there a peer reviewed study you can cite? You are just making this up, admit it.
It's a bonafide FACT, sometimes a helmet can save your life, as in the Venus incident...
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Old 12-18-13, 12:54 PM   #6566
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It's a bonafide FACT, sometimes a helmet can save your life, as in the Venus incident...
If you can offer no proof wrt Venus, then its your opinion, not a fact. (You do know I am messing with you, using typical A&S methodologies, right?)
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Old 12-18-13, 12:56 PM   #6567
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Part of the problem in this thread and a possible reason for so much confusion and acrimony is that it blends multiple interlocked but different issues.

For those who wear helmets is legitimate discussion about relative safety of various helmets, helmet standards, and helmet technological progress. They wear helmets and have every reason to be concerned.

Those issues don't affect those of who don't wear helmets, since we're unaffected. However we have legitimate concerns about the assumption that bicycling is dangerous, and that there are those who'd make helmets mandatory. We also have issues with image and how we're barraged by well meaning? folks who can't resist proselytizing us.

Lastly helmet wearer or not, we all need to be concerned with how bicycling and the "need" to wear helmets is view by outsiders, who may at some feel compelled to do something "for your own safety", or because of the externalities which many here insist on bringing up. That's a real concern because it extends beyond helmets, and can affect our rights to ride public roads.
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Old 12-18-13, 01:11 PM   #6568
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If you can offer no proof wrt Venus, then its your opinion, not a fact. (You do know I am messing with you, using typical A&S methodologies, right?)
Yea, I'm just messing too, trying to weedle a, yes helmets can save a life answer out of you guys... Even if it's only on Venus...
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Old 12-18-13, 01:26 PM   #6569
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Yea, I'm just messing too, trying to weedle a, yes helmets can save a life answer out of you guys... Even if it's only on Venus...
Dunno about that, you have no data that a fall in 93 bar pressure is dangerous. (I'm ignoring the obvious point about what you're protecting against, just 'cause.)

Besides, in that pressure and heat you're in an enclosed structure not outside with a suit and helmet. Always alert for a breach, because super-heated sulfuric acid won't allow much slack. So when you're riding your bike around in the corridors of Venus Station you probably don't want your senses dulled by a helmet.
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Old 12-18-13, 01:27 PM   #6570
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Sure I will agree with that, helmets can save live, maybe even on venus. I do believe helmets can save lives, but I am agreement with FB, in that the frequency of lives saved in so low as to making my wearing one unnecessary. Thats my evaluation of the risk of the kind of recreational and transportational cycling I do.

Everyone else needs to evaluate their own risk and make their own determination if wearing a helmet is necessary in their circumstances. The only reason I have even the slightest interest in this novella of a thread is that several times a year, some well meaning but ill informed cyclist will sing out at me wheres your helmet some such glop. Usually I smile and wave, but it irks me that some people can be so self righteous as to think they have a right to call me out for not wearing a helmet, or that they so believe that theirs is the only valid opinion such that I need to conform to their view of cycling safety.
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Old 12-18-13, 08:08 PM   #6571
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Everyone measures their chances of injury differently depending on what they are doing...
And yet for some reason you insist that in this particular case anyone who doesn't "measure their chance of injury" the same as you must be brain damaged.
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Old 12-18-13, 08:09 PM   #6572
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And yet for some reason you insist that in this particular case anyone who doesn't "measure their chance of injury" the same as you must be brain damaged.
Would that be before or after they didn't wear their helmet?
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Old 12-18-13, 08:14 PM   #6573
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I don't know how often you hear "what's that on your head?" or Yo! planning to fall?" or whatever...
I've mentioned it before, but I was an "early adopter" of hardshell helmets. I think I started wearing one on club rides about 1986 or so, and a lot of the "old guard" wouldn't get near me. I think they assumed that I was planning on crashing a lot or something. At any rate, I certainly took my share of insults from fellow riders.
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Old 12-18-13, 08:17 PM   #6574
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And yet for some reason you insist that in this particular case anyone who doesn't "measure their chance of injury" the same as you must be brain damaged.
NO, I just think they are making a mistake... Doesn't mean that I am right... Doesn't mean they are right either... JMO.
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Old 12-18-13, 08:28 PM   #6575
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I've mentioned it before, but I was an "early adopter" of hardshell helmets. I think I started wearing one on club rides about 1986 or so, and a lot of the "old guard" wouldn't get near me. I think they assumed that I was planning on crashing a lot or something. At any rate, I certainly took my share of insults from fellow riders.
If I remember correctly that far back, 1986 wouldn't have made you an early adopter, at least not in the Northeast. By then hard helmets were pretty well established among serious club riders. However I do agree that the true early adopters got a decent amount of ribbing, though that faded away within the first few years.

As I remember, the helmet early adopters among the folks I rode with back then, were those who had the most accidents. After hearing some of these telling their 3rd "the helmet saved my life" story, I concluded that as an alternative to wearing a helmet, I'd just keep distance from some of these bozos (not because of the helmet, but because of how they rode).
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