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Advocacy & Safety Cyclists should expect and demand safe accommodation on every public road, just as do all other users. Discuss your bicycle advocacy and safety concerns here.

View Poll Results: Helmet wearing habits?
I've never worn a bike helmet 178 10.66%
I used to wear a helmet, but have stopped 94 5.63%
I've always worn a helmet 648 38.80%
I didn't wear a helmet, but now do 408 24.43%
I sometimes wear a helmet depending on the conditions 342 20.48%
Voters: 1670. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 01-06-14, 12:07 PM   #6676
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But still it remains no matter how great your bike handling skills and how defensively you ride, schidt happens and down you go.
The other night, I was carrying my bike out of the shop to load it into my car and I slipped on some ice, fell.

Should have been wearing a helmet -- such a fall had the potential for TBI. And, after all, I was near my bike, carrying it in fact. Even though I didn't hit my head. Not to mention, I climbed into a car and drove directly after.

Livin' dangerously, I tell you...
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Old 01-06-14, 12:15 PM   #6677
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DD = defensive driving

I think the other poster is saying speeds of defensive cycling make it potentially easier than defensive driving.
I suppose. But so what? You have to drive defensively even if it's hard and there's also a huge economic value/incentive in reducing automobile damage and injuries that makes it being harder mostly moot.

No one is arguing that helmets take the place of defensive riding. Anyway, it's not a case or one or the other.

People keep saying defensive riding is better but have no real proposals to implement it! One such person in this thread said that even when offered at no cost, very, very few of his customers took the LAB class his shop offered!!

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Some in this thread are fast. My average commute speed over a year was 12mph. Yes, you're right. Generalization is bad. Defining groups is bad. Everyone should choose their own PPE levels unless engaging in a race or other organized ride that may require certain equipment.
That average speed is higher than many Europeans riding around in cities. They are also often riding in areas with many other cyclists and pedestrians admidst drivers who are often cyclists too. The "look, Europeans don't wear helmets, so, Americans don't need to wear them" argument doesn't make sense since there are other things that Europeans have that people in the US lack (and aren't likely to get anytime soon).

PPE??

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Most bikes don't come with helmets. In the USA most don't come with lights or audible warning devices either, yet automobiles do.

And yes, racing automobiles or road bikes on closed courses is safer than the alternative. Auto Racing on open roads is quite rare. Road bike racing on open roads happens several times a year and races on partially closed roads happening ALL the time.
This is a mess. It's not clear what point you are trying to make.

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I think SOME of my everyday riding warrants helmet use, definitely not ALL.
Do you remove your helmet on your "everyday" ride when it isn't warranted?

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I would think those that rationalize everyday helmet use with "anything could happen" have too little in the way of personal protection. If anything could happen I'd really want a full face helmet and some kinda knee/elbow protection.
No, you would choose not to ride in the first place. If "some" of your "everyday" riding "warrants" a helmet, it makes sense to carry it on your head than elsewhere on your bike.

Last edited by njkayaker; 01-06-14 at 12:50 PM.
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Old 01-06-14, 01:18 PM   #6678
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For an everyday ride I consider the possibility of ice or snow and whether I'm really gonna push hard on my ride. These are my main considerations for PPE. PPE = Personal Protection Equipment, BTW.

I think pointing to Copenhagen 3 - speed riders an concluding that no one needs a cycling helmet is poor form. It is a good data point to support the viewpoint that not all cyclists need helmets, though.

No helmet for my morning rides. 3.8 miles each way on a 24 pound MTB with slicks and 27 speeds. Avg. speed 13.9 mph so far. I could probably wring a nice 11 mph out of a 45 pound 3 - speed though.

Average speed in the helmet thread. YESSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 01-06-14, 02:57 PM   #6679
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Average speed in the helmet thread. YESSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!
...if there was any doubt remaining about your shamelessness, it is now laid to rest.
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Old 01-06-14, 03:45 PM   #6680
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I think pointing to Copenhagen 3 - speed riders an concluding that no one needs a cycling helmet is poor form.
It's a common anti-helmet argument.

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It is a good data point to support the viewpoint that not all cyclists need helmets, though.
Not really. It's possible that they could be better off (we don't know).
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Old 01-06-14, 06:00 PM   #6681
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...did she make you wear a helment ? She was always nagging me about it.
I know you served up the "Well, I did use protection" joke on a platter, but I'm too classy for that sort of thing.
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Old 01-06-14, 06:04 PM   #6682
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I don't care if you or someone else does or doesn't want to wear helmet...
Frankly, I don't think that's true. I think you actually get kind of hot under the collar when you someone making that kind of a decision for himself, and I'll bet you have to restrain yourself from commenting on it - and in point of fact, I'll bet your restraint is sometimes lacking.
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Old 01-06-14, 06:42 PM   #6683
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Frankly, I don't think that's true. I think you actually get kind of hot under the collar when you someone making that kind of a decision for himself, and I'll bet you have to restrain yourself from commenting on it - and in point of fact, I'll bet your restraint is sometimes lacking.
Gee, I so glad you know me better then me...you're the smartest girl in the world.
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Old 01-06-14, 07:49 PM   #6684
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I'm sure there's more to you than irrationality, lack of restraint, and disingenuity, but all I know about you is what I've seen online.
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Old 01-06-14, 08:05 PM   #6685
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I'm sure there's more to you than irrationality, lack of restraint, and disingenuity, but all I know about you is what I've seen online.
You did get one thing right, my lack of restraint, I don't see the point of restraining myself when an idiot is trying to make a point based on no facts.
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Old 01-06-14, 10:49 PM   #6686
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Says the guy who believes a few ounces of styrofoam are adequate protection against several tons of speeding steel.

And FWIW, we all make spelling and punctuation mistakes, but it's a good idea to double check any posts in which you call your opponent's intelligence into question.
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Old 01-07-14, 02:36 AM   #6687
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For me it's more about our personal rights, if I choose not to wear a helmet or a seat belt that's my right just as it is to wear either, my safety is my concern and my responsibility not the government's, the government should have more important things to do then watch us like hawks to make sure we wear seat belts or helmets
Exactly! This should be the focus of debate, not anecdotal evidence, or figures taken from outdated and error-prone reports on cycle injuries, or heated opinions on the use of a largely unstandardized (from an international perspective) safety device.

And my "...my money is on the cyclist who is aware of their surroundings ..." quip was meant to illustrate that the helmet should be a secondary concern to the use of your brain, aimed at the "helmet is the panacea for cycling safety" crowd or the anecdotal "i fell off by bike while drunk and my helmet saved me hurr hurr" or "I hit my head at low speed 'cause I didn't see the crack in the ground so the helmet saved my life, therefore everyone must use helmets!" groups - baseless commentary that I hear all too often as pro-arguments to make helmet use mandatory.

So far as can be determined, nowhere in the world has an increase in helmet use resulted in a fall in head or brain injuries relative to cycle use. Which is why helmet use should remain a personal choice, not a regulatory choice. Use your brain to make that choice, not give it up to lobby-controlled morons running the government.

closetbiker hit it right on the head at the beginning of this huge thread: "Focusing on helmets distracts people from what's more likely to actually save their lives: Learning how to ride safely. It's not that I'm against helmets, I'm against all the attention placed on helmets at the expense of safe riding skills. Helmets are not the most important aspect of bike safety. Not by a long shot."

more cycling, less debate!
more cycling, less debate!
more cycling, less debate!

Last edited by digitalmouse; 01-07-14 at 02:46 AM. Reason: added closetbiker's initial comment
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Old 01-07-14, 05:30 AM   #6688
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And FWIW, we all make spelling and punctuation mistakes, but it's a good idea to double check any posts in which you call your opponent's intelligence into question.
You should comprehend what you read which makes me, and others, believe you can't read. I was giving an example of myself not restraining myself toward certain type of people to prove that you were right in that one area. Get it now? Hmmm, I somehow doubt it. But if you want to take credit for being such a person go ahead, I won't stop you!
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Old 01-07-14, 08:25 AM   #6689
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Has anyone here considered the fact that if more people wore helmets, it would keep the overbearing b'crats that want to run our lives off our backs. I for one dont want to be dictated to by Washington b'crats that I HAVE to wear a helmet.
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Old 01-07-14, 09:21 AM   #6690
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Has anyone here considered the fact that if more people wore helmets, it would keep the overbearing b'crats that want to run our lives off our backs. I for one dont want to be dictated to by Washington b'crats that I HAVE to wear a helmet.
This is surrendering to our nanny state! If we do what you say than the government will have more and more stupid regulations that dictate to us how we should run our lives! The government needs to stay out of some things and leave us alone, we have enough reasoning on our own without daddy telling us what to do, I understand daddy telling us what to do when we were minors, but we're not minors anymore so leave us alone to succeed or fail.
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Old 01-07-14, 09:31 AM   #6691
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Has anyone here considered the fact that if more people wore helmets, it would keep the overbearing b'crats that want to run our lives off our backs. I for one dont want to be dictated to by Washington b'crats that I HAVE to wear a helmet.
Are you saying we should wear helmets voluntarily simply to avoid having them mandatory?

I must be an idiot, because I can't see the difference, since either way we're wearing a helmet.

OTOH history says the opposite is true. Once a segment becomes a minority, then a small enough minority, then government feels secure enough to ring in the outliers.
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Old 01-07-14, 10:19 AM   #6692
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Originally Posted by rekmeyata View Post
For me it's more about our personal rights, if I choose not to wear a helmet or a seat belt that's my right just as it is to wear either, my safety is my concern and my responsibility not the government's, the government should have more important things to do then watch us like hawks to make sure we wear seat belts or helmets
Exactly! This should be the focus of debate...
Then this would be an empty thread.
99% or more of the posters in this thread agree that helmet use should not be mandated. Mandatory helmet law is not even part of the poll attached to this thread. However, for some reason, many in the Barehead Brigade have stated this as their primary reason to post in this thread (of course, when your point has no opposition, you've won the debate, right?).
So, no. This should not be the focus of debate. There is no debate here, in that regard.

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...
baseless commentary that I hear all too often as pro-arguments to make helmet use mandatory.
...
Please point out the posters calling for making helmet use mandatory. You are crying out against a bunch of folks who agree with you about MHLs.
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Old 01-07-14, 12:19 PM   #6693
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FB

Im saying that if the b'crats see enough people wearing helmets, they will stay off our backs. I may want to ride without a helmet in a local park on my trike.
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Old 01-07-14, 12:38 PM   #6694
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FB

Im saying that if the b'crats see enough people wearing helmets, they will stay off our backs. I may want to ride without a helmet in a local park on my trike.
You have it 100% backward. If they see enough people wearing helmets, they'll sense comunity support for helmets and feel safe to mandate them. Also, as more people wear helmets, not wearing them will become indefensible. Many years ago (before, and in the early days of helmets) I was on the board of a non profit that ran bicycle tours for youths. When helmets started gaining acceptance, we had to work with our insurer regarding whether to insist that out participants wore them, and how hard to enforce the rule. We got to where we recommended them, but didn't enforce a rule. This lasted a few years, until our insurer came back to us saying that just about all other organizations were mandating helmet use and enforcing the policy. They felt they'd b at a serious disadvantage defending us, and our (now in the minority) policy of not enforcing helmet use, in the event of an injury and lawsuit. That's when we also made them mandatory.

While we like to claim to be the most free country, the reality is that those holding minority views are at a disadvantage here in the USA. This is especially true on "motherhood and apple pie issues, like safety.

Cigarette smoking only became as highly regulated as it is now because the number of smokers became small enough that it's safe to alienate them. If 40% of Americans smoked, politicians would be wary of losing votes with tough regulation. Drinking has fared better because more people do so. And obesity, which shortens more lives, and has a greater impact on health care costs is immune from any serious effort to manage it, except for minor chipping at the edges.
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Old 01-07-14, 01:39 PM   #6695
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Exactly! This should be the focus of debate, not anecdotal evidence, or figures taken from outdated and error-prone reports on cycle injuries, or heated opinions on the use of a largely unstandardized (from an international perspective) safety device.

And my "...my money is on the cyclist who is aware of their surroundings ..." quip was meant to illustrate that the helmet should be a secondary concern to the use of your brain, aimed at the "helmet is the panacea for cycling safety" crowd or the anecdotal "i fell off by bike while drunk and my helmet saved me hurr hurr" or "I hit my head at low speed 'cause I didn't see the crack in the ground so the helmet saved my life, therefore everyone must use helmets!" groups - baseless commentary that I hear all too often as pro-arguments to make helmet use mandatory.
You must be new here. No one here is arguing to make helmet use mandatory. The strawman in this is large enough to get a job at burning man.

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closetbiker hit it right on the head at the beginning of this huge thread: "Focusing on helmets distracts people from what's more likely to actually save their lives: Learning how to ride safely. It's not that I'm against helmets, I'm against all the attention placed on helmets at the expense of safe riding skills. Helmets are not the most important aspect of bike safety. Not by a long shot."
This is spoken like a magic spell: merely saying makes it happen! One person here who said this indicate that nearly no one took the free riding classes his shop offered!

Anyway, what you are saying here is a "false dichotomy". Safe and experienced riders still manage to get into crashes.

Last edited by njkayaker; 01-07-14 at 01:49 PM.
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Old 01-07-14, 01:54 PM   #6696
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Says the guy who believes a few ounces of styrofoam are adequate protection against several tons of speeding steel.
This is silly. You say this like everybody who gets into a collision with a car always dies. Not all collisions are with "speeding steel".
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Old 01-07-14, 01:56 PM   #6697
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You must be new here. No one here is arguing to make helmet use mandatory. The strawman in this is large enough to get a job at burning man.
There have been a couple here and there throughout the years.

Either just plain ol' MHL proponents or the even more awesome proposers of laws regarding Denial of Medical Aid for the helmetless.
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Old 01-07-14, 02:00 PM   #6698
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This is spoken like a magic spell: merely saying makes it happen! One person here who said this indicate that nearly no one took the free riding classes his shop offered!

Anyway, what you are saying here is a "false dichotomy". Safe and experienced riders still manage to get into crashes.
Yeah, it is tough to encourage safe cycling education. Would probably have to mandate it by law or pay people to go if you wanted more than 1% attendance.
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Old 01-07-14, 02:02 PM   #6699
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There have been a couple here and there throughout the years.
It's extremely rare. Yet (some) people keep pretending like it's common. "closetbiker" was one such person!

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Yeah, it is tough to encourage safe cycling education. Would probably have to mandate it by law or pay people to go if you wanted more than 1% attendance.
Ironic. Also, no one has any idea whether it works (and people having gone through classes still have collisions). (Just to be clear: I don't have problems with training.) Anyway, training, by itself, isn't (likely) enough: it likely requires experience too.

Last edited by njkayaker; 01-07-14 at 02:12 PM.
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Old 01-07-14, 03:37 PM   #6700
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Either just plain ol' MHL proponents or the even more awesome proposers of laws regarding Denial of Medical Aid for the helmetless.
....I think we should load the brain damaged helmentless into wheelchairs and parade them around town at various
public functions, with big signs hanging on them saying, "See what can happen ? We warned you, but nooooooo."
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