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View Poll Results: Helmet wearing habits?

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  • I've never worn a bike helmet

    178 10.66%
  • I used to wear a helmet, but have stopped

    94 5.63%
  • I've always worn a helmet

    648 38.80%
  • I didn't wear a helmet, but now do

    408 24.43%
  • I sometimes wear a helmet depending on the conditions

    342 20.48%
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  1. #8051
    Senior Member rydabent's Avatar
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    My whole position on this helmet thread kind of reminds me of what Thumpers mother told him. "If you cant say something nice, dont say anything at all". So---------if you cant say something nice about helmets dont say anything at all. You may be preventing someone especially a new rider that may need and benefit from using a helmet from wearing one. Why keep posting the false information that no one will benefit from wearing a helmet?

  2. #8052
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    Quote Originally Posted by keyven View Post
    so essentially, what use are any forms of helmets at all?

    In a construction site, it would barely - if at all - protect the wearer from a fall, collapsing concrete slabs, falling iron girders, etc so i guess construction workers should be allowed to wear their caps or bandanas or whatever is fashionable.

    Air bags have been known to suffocate occupants and seat belts have been known to get stuck and slow/prevent escape from a burning/submerged vehicle, so unless bicycle helmets have been known to actively kill their wearers, how are the other safety equipment any better??

    by all means, don't wear safety gear if you hate it, but stop making stupid excuses and stop dissuading others from doing so.


    +2
    He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts...for support rather than illumination. I do like my beer, so sometimes I do end up leaning on the lamp-post...

  3. #8053
    Quirky Grifter LesterOfPuppets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldTryGuy View Post
    I have a proposition for you.....

    Let's duplicate my fall of a few weeks ago and have your helmetless head bounce off the road as mine did on its back resulting in an impact sufficiently hard enough to cause a failure of the foam and we can find out how well your head/brain survives. This fall was only at 18mph.

    Then we can try another one were during a 70.3 triathlon I crashed at 25.3mph and smacked my head pretty hard this time on the side and again we can see how your head makes out.

    Just sayin.....
    Triathletes crash a lot at low speed, though. An experienced cyclist does so much less.

    Guy in the yellow hat? Probably a triathlete.

    Guy in the yellow jersey? Was a triathlete but grew out of it.

    1980ish Free Spirit Sunbird fixed * 1996 Mongoose IBOC Zero-G * 1997 KHS Comp * 1990-ish Scapin * Lemond Buenos Aires Triple

  4. #8054
    Senior Member rekmeyata's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarinusMalmari View Post
    Since I was talking explicitly about bicycle helmets:

    Attachment 389186


    Seat belts have a pretty impressive safety record, preventing 30-50% of fatalities alone, while it has yet to be seen if bicycle helmets are an effective means of protection. From what I can tell they're better than nothing, but there's no reason to believe they're very effective in preventing injuries. As for doing harm: some studies suggest that bicycle helmets increase the chance of neck injuries. That's only one of the suspected drawbacks. So what we've got is a safety device with a questionable safety record, that might have serious draw-backs for the wearer.


    I don't wear a bicycle helmet because it think they're uncomfortable, inconvenient, unnecessary and, as far as I can tell, fairly ineffective. It's a personal choice, and unlike you I don't expect anyone to do or believe the same as I do. And I should stop voicing my opinion about bicycle helmets? In this thread? Are you serious?
    More lies that have been disproven through statistics about the safety of bicycle helmets and their effectiveness. If you can prove, with facts not some mumbo jumbo nonsense from someone who is anti helmet but with actual impartial statistics with a long history behind it, that the government statistics that I and others have posted numerous times here that no one so far as dared to refute other than shooting off their mouths, about helmets history of reducing injury is all a pack of lies than prove it, otherwise quit talking out of your arse like all the others do here!

    HOWEVER, I do agree with you that if don't want to wear a helmet due to all the reasons you listed then I think you should be free to do whatever you feel is right for you, so I agree with that one point. HOWEVER, I don't care if statistics, either about helmets or about seat belts etc, show that they are effective, it still doesn't mean that we should be forced to use them because it goes back to what we agree about...freedom of choice.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NF4MIEkIBZs

  5. #8055
    20+mph Commuter JoeyBike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rekmeyata View Post
    ...it still doesn't mean that we should be forced to use them because it goes back to what we agree about...freedom of choice.
    I live in the USofA. I do not have freedom of choice on many things. As a Libertarian, I keep track of all the freedoms my countrymen and women do not have. But I am not going to post a list because that would likely derail this thread. My only reason for posting here is to remind folks that in the USofA our freedom of choice across the board is very limited at this time. I agree that we SHOULD have freedom of choice, but what we have right now is pretty far removed from that concept. And I doubt that many Americans would be happy with true freedom of choice anyway.
    "For all we know his skills may be excellent, allowing him to ride like an idiot without actually being one." - FBinNY

  6. #8056
    Nobody mconlonx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rekmeyata View Post
    More lies that have been disproven through statistics about the safety of bicycle helmets and their effectiveness. If you can prove, with facts not some mumbo jumbo nonsense from someone who is anti helmet but with actual impartial statistics with a long history behind it, that the government statistics that I and others have posted numerous times here that no one so far as dared to refute other than shooting off their mouths, about helmets history of reducing injury is all a pack of lies than prove it, otherwise quit talking out of your arse like all the others do here!
    There's all kinds of studies which have been posted in this very thread refuting such claims of helmet efficacy.

    There's all kinds of studies which have been misquoted in this thread by both sides to support their claims.

    No one is claiming helmets are not at all effective in preventing or reducing some kinds of injury.

    Some claim that if they had crashed without their helmet, they would have died or been seriously injured, which is unsubstantiated and probably not at all true.
    I know next to nothing. I am frequently wrong.

  7. #8057
    Senior Member elcruxio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldTryGuy View Post
    I have a proposition for you.....

    Let's duplicate my fall of a few weeks ago and have your helmetless head bounce off the road as mine did on its back resulting in an impact sufficiently hard enough to cause a failure of the foam and we can find out how well your head/brain survives. This fall was only at 18mph.

    Then we can try another one were during a 70.3 triathlon I crashed at 25.3mph and smacked my head pretty hard this time on the side and again we can see how your head makes out.

    Just sayin.....
    Well if you crash so much...

    I've banged my head on a two iron once. I was not wearing a helmet but if I had I'm sure it would have saved my life.

    Btw. How does a tri helmet help if you land on your back? Just sayin'...

  8. #8058
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    Quote Originally Posted by elcruxio View Post
    Well if you crash so much...

    I've banged my head on a two iron once. I was not wearing a helmet but if I had I'm sure it would have saved my life.

    Btw. How does a tri helmet help if you land on your back? Just sayin'...
    crash so much...The Rev3 70.3 was in 2012 so that was some time ago.

    tri helmet...What tri helmet???? I use a regular road helmet.

  9. #8059
    Senior Member rekmeyata's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mconlonx View Post
    There's all kinds of studies which have been posted in this very thread refuting such claims of helmet efficacy.

    There's all kinds of studies which have been misquoted in this thread by both sides to support their claims.

    No one is claiming helmets are not at all effective in preventing or reducing some kinds of injury.

    Some claim that if they had crashed without their helmet, they would have died or been seriously injured, which is unsubstantiated and probably not at all true.
    incorrect answer, I asked you to refute the statistical site I gave with proof that the site was in error, and all I get from you is more mumbo jumbo.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NF4MIEkIBZs

  10. #8060
    Senior Member elcruxio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldTryGuy View Post
    crash so much...The Rev3 70.3 was in 2012 so that was some time ago.

    tri helmet...What tri helmet???? I use a regular road helmet.
    But you just mentioned you crashed a few weeks ago at 18mph. To me that sounds like two major crashes in two years. Two major crashes in decade would be a lot. The question is, why do you actually fall so much? Recless riding or other reason?

    Which also peaks my interest in your speeds. You have by your mention crashed at 25mph and 18mph. Neither of these speeds are insignificant. They are actually pretty fast. Yet you advocate helmets for all, even to utility cyclists who might have the average speed of 8mph.

    But of course it's not the speed....

    A tri helmet is one of those long pointy ones.

  11. #8061
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldTryGuy View Post
    I have a proposition for you.....
    I'm not very interested in falling, bare-headed or otherwise, thank you very much. And if I had to wipe out, I would opt for something better than a foam fruit basket to protect my head. Anyway, since I'm not very fond of falling, I made a habit out of staying on my bicycle, and I'm pretty good at it. I only fell off of my bicycle once since my childhood, despite the fact I cycle hundreds of kilometers each month. Also, your proposition can be used to promote anything from full body armor for cyclists to pedestrian helmets.

    Let's duplicate my fall of a few weeks ago and have your helmetless head bounce off the road as mine did on its back resulting in an impact sufficiently hard enough to cause a failure of the foam and we can find out how well your head/brain survives. This fall was only at 18mph.
    The one accident I had featured me smashing head first into the ground at a speed of 25-30 kilometers per hour and resulted in minor injuries only. So I already sort of found out. What I took away from that is that I shouldn't ride like an idiot, btw.

    Then we can try another one were during a 70.3 triathlon I crashed at 25.3mph and smacked my head pretty hard this time on the side and again we can see how your head makes out.
    I'm afraid we can't try that one, since I don't ride that fast. (well, except maybe when I'm going down-hill and need speed for the next hill, but since they didn't call this the Netherlands for nothing, that's not very often) Not because I can't, I've been known to ride that fast on an omafiets when I was younger, but because limiting your speed is one of the best ways to ensure your safety. Btw: note how I'm not arrogant enough to preach that people shouldn't ride faster than 25 km/h or even think I'm in the position to decide what risks people should or shouldn't take.

    Just sayin.....
    Love the smiley; you keep on smashing your head into the ground with a helmet, I'll just continue to avoid smashing my head into the ground at all. Let's see what works out best.

    Just saying....
    Last edited by CarinusMalmari; 06-25-14 at 04:18 AM.

  12. #8062
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    My whole position on this helmet thread kind of reminds me of what Thumpers mother told him. "If you cant say something nice, dont say anything at all". So---------if you cant say something nice about helmets dont say anything at all.
    Yes, how wonderful would it be if everyone who doesn't agree with me would STFU. No more ABHSML anecdotes. No more derp-faces chanting that "you should always wear a helmet", every time a cyclist bumps his toe or something. No more people sharing their unsolicited and often unwanted opinions about the merits of bicycle helmets and no more ecstatic BS of people who think their bicycle helmet is their lid and savior.

    Well, actually it would probably be rather boring, but more people promoting cycling as the efficient, fun, healthy and safe activity it is, would be nice.


    You may be preventing someone especially a new rider that may need and benefit from using a helmet from wearing one. Why keep posting the false information that no one will benefit from wearing a helmet?
    And you may discourage people from cycling altogether with your fear-mongering. You may cause riders to think a helmet equals bicycle safety, while that's not the case. You may prevent them from considering real bicycle safety, which would be preventing accidents. It's also telling that the people who whine about bicycle helmets the most (=Americans and Australians) do a pretty lousy job with the whole bicycle safety thing.

    Also: the Netherlands.
    Last edited by CarinusMalmari; 06-25-14 at 05:29 AM.

  13. #8063
    905
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    Taking my own suggestion!

    Having done a header at a speed at which a helmet probably would've been effective and knocked myself unconscious, unzipped part of my scalp, scared my wife half to death, and suffered vertigo for six months afterwards, I wish I'd been wearing a helmet. I know data is not the plural of anecdote, but no matter what this or that study says, at the end of the day it's my head hitting the ground.



    OK that was too easy, as I actually did have such a fall and aftermath. If I hadn't, and my argument wasn't essentially based on extrapolating myself, it would be more difficult for me to make a convincing case. My heart isn't in it. My heart isn't in it because I don't blame cycling, I blame life.

    Quote Originally Posted by rydabent View Post
    The anti helmet crowd keeps trying to shoot the messenger, which does little good.
    Quote Originally Posted by 905 View Post
    In life outside the helmet thread, how many times has a non-helmeted cyclist tried to "shoot the messenger"? In other words, how often are you approached and asked "Why are you wearing a helmet?"
    That wasn't a rhetorical question. I'd be interested to know.

    Apropos JoeyBike's fashion post, I'm not sure where I fit in.


    as ever, the height of fashion

    Virtually all of the other 40something-year-old men I see riding for recreation where I live and work are wearing helmets, as are their younger brothers (not too many women, sadly). As we climb years the helmets start to go MIA. I'd say late 50s and above, about half are sporting cloth hats. It's rare to run into another barehead like me unless they're the minority in these parts who are strictly A to B'ing and – I'm guessing – haven't been asked by somebody "Why aren't you wearing a helmet?"

    One of the few people who's asked me is my doctor, the one with the shattered femur I mentioned upthread. I'm sure he's glad he was wearing his helmet; I'm glad he didn't need it.
    Last edited by 905; 06-25-14 at 09:13 AM. Reason: off with his head
    my personal FAQ bikereader.com/FAQ.html

  14. #8064
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    Quote Originally Posted by elcruxio View Post
    But you just mentioned you crashed a few weeks ago at 18mph. To me that sounds like two major crashes in two years. Two major crashes in decade would be a lot. The question is, why do you actually fall so much? Recless riding or other reason?

    Which also peaks my interest in your speeds. You have by your mention crashed at 25mph and 18mph. Neither of these speeds are insignificant. They are actually pretty fast. Yet you advocate helmets for all, even to utility cyclists who might have the average speed of 8mph.

    But of course it's not the speed....

    A tri helmet is one of those long pointy ones.
    The more often one gets up out of bed, the greater the chances are of falling down.

    18mph might be a significant speed for some, but we were backed down and chilling getting ready to take a break when a moment of inattention by another rider AND more so by myself resulted in me clipping his wheel.

    I have a pointy helmet that is utilized for stand alone TTs.

    Quote Originally Posted by CarinusMalmari View Post
    I'm not very interested in falling, bare-headed or otherwise, thank you very much. And if I had to wipe out, I would opt for something better than a foam fruit basket to protect my head. Anyway, since I'm not very fond of falling, I made a habit out of staying on my bicycle, and I'm pretty good at it. I only fell off of my bicycle once since my childhood, despite the fact I cycle hundreds of kilometers each month. Also, your proposition can be used to promote anything from full body armor for cyclists to pedestrian helmets.


    The one accident I had featured me smashing head first into the ground at a speed of 25-30 kilometers per hour and resulted in minor injuries only. So I already sort of found out. What I took away from that is that I shouldn't ride like an idiot, btw.


    I'm afraid we can't try that one, since I don't ride that fast. (well, except maybe when I'm going down-hill and need speed for the next hill, but since they didn't call this the Netherlands for nothing, that's not very often) Not because I can't, I've been known to ride that fast on an omafiets when I was younger, but because limiting your speed is one of the best ways to ensure your safety. Btw: note how I'm not arrogant enough to preach that people shouldn't ride faster than 25 km/h or even think I'm in the position to decide what risks people should or shouldn't take.


    Love the smiley; you keep on smashing your head into the ground with a helmet, I'll just continue to avoid smashing my head into the ground at all. Let's see what works out best.

    Just saying....
    Your body, your choice. HOWEVER!!!!!

    The vision of a once vibrant young boy with talent beyond comprehension who fell off his 20" bike hitting his helmetless head on the pavement resulting in a coma and upon awaking was not that vibrant boy again will never disappear from my memory. We will never know if a simple foam fruit basket might have changed the outcome. I suspect it might have.

  15. #8065
    Nobody mconlonx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rekmeyata View Post
    incorrect answer, I asked you to refute the statistical site I gave with proof that the site was in error, and all I get from you is more mumbo jumbo.
    You didn't ask me anything. I'm not anti helmet. And like an ardent anti-helmet guy who used to post here once posted in reply to a query of mine, I'm not going to do your research for you--there's hundreds of links in this thread for you to peruse and refute if you want. Not anything I said was "mumbo jumbo" or untrue. You just don't like that I am essentially correct in what I said.
    I know next to nothing. I am frequently wrong.

  16. #8066
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    The more often one gets up out of bed, the greater the chances are of falling down.
    But is that the reason why you fall every couple of years, while someone like me falls every couple of decades? Unless you cycle tens of thousands of kilometers per year, I'm going to assume there's a different reason you fall more often than I do.

    18mph might be a significant speed for some
    No, it IS a significant speed. The average cyclist on planet earth is a low-speed utility cyclist, that will probably move at speeds between 12-24 km/h or so.

    when a moment of inattention by another rider AND more so by myself resulted in me clipping his wheel.
    And what you take away from that is that you should wear a helmet.....

    Your body, your choice. HOWEVER!!!!!
    You fell a couple of weeks ago, I fell 12 years ago. You fell twice in the last 2 years, I fell once in the last 25 years. This suggests my choices are better than yours, and I'm a lot less likely to hurt myself than you do.

    The vision of a once vibrant young boy with talent beyond comprehension who fell off his 20" bike hitting his helmetless head on the pavement resulting in a coma and upon awaking was not that vibrant boy again will never disappear from my memory. We will never know if a simple foam fruit basket might have changed the outcome. I suspect it might have.
    I'm sorry to hear that, but it's the tragic exception to the fact that cycling accidents, especially single party crashes, will generally have a good outcome. It also proves little about the effectiveness of cycling helmets.

  17. #8067
    Senior Member rekmeyata's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mconlonx View Post
    You didn't ask me anything. I'm not anti helmet. And like an ardent anti-helmet guy who used to post here once posted in reply to a query of mine, I'm not going to do your research for you--there's hundreds of links in this thread for you to peruse and refute if you want. Not anything I said was "mumbo jumbo" or untrue. You just don't like that I am essentially correct in what I said.
    Still no proof that the statistics site is false, more mumbo jumbo. I'm just going to ignore you from now on because you just want to beat around the bush and not answer the question directly.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NF4MIEkIBZs

  18. #8068
    Senior Member rekmeyata's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarinusMalmari View Post
    But is that the reason why you fall every couple of years, while someone like me falls every couple of decades? Unless you cycle tens of thousands of kilometers per year, I'm going to assume there's a different reason you fall more often than I do.


    No, it IS a significant speed. The average cyclist on planet earth is a low-speed utility cyclist, that will probably move at speeds between 12-24 km/h or so.


    And what you take away from that is that you should wear a helmet.....


    You fell a couple of weeks ago, I fell 12 years ago. You fell twice in the last 2 years, I fell once in the last 25 years. This suggests my choices are better than yours, and I'm a lot less likely to hurt myself than you do.


    I'm sorry to hear that, but it's the tragic exception to the fact that cycling accidents, especially single party crashes, will generally have a good outcome. It also proves little about the effectiveness of cycling helmets.
    I don't see the reason for all this bantering about how many times a person has fallen down, I haven't fallen in over 20 years, so what? Does that make me better than you? If a person is racing the odds are they'll have more crashes; if a person cycles in a more dangerous environment the odds are they might fall down more; if, as you suggested, a person rides a lot of miles the odds are they might fall down more; if a person is less coordinated than another the odds are they might fall down more. SO WHAT? That doesn't mean they're a bad rider, I knew people who were a bit less coordinated and some of those guys could beat most of the other racers, so coordination doesn't make for a bad rider just makes for more accidents.

    Knock off the personal attacks and move on to the subject material of helmets.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NF4MIEkIBZs

  19. #8069
    rugged individualist wphamilton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rekmeyata View Post
    Still no proof that the statistics site is false, more mumbo jumbo. I'm just going to ignore you from now on because you just want to beat around the bush and not answer the question directly.
    I am the one who said he could refute the statistics on the site. I don't want to hash any of it out in detail, but I will say that assuming for the sake of argument that all of the numbers and data are correct, they don't lead to the conclusions drawn.

  20. #8070
    Nobody mconlonx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rekmeyata View Post
    A irrefutable statistical site that proves they work:
    Bicycle Helmet Statistics
    Which states clearly that people still die in crashes even if they are wearing a helmet. 15% of all cyclists killed in 2010 were wearing helmets. The disingenuous part of that link is when they harp over and over again that "In 1996, 96% of those killed in bike accidents were not wearing helmets" when that is not even the latest figure they report and there's plenty of years when a much greater percentage of helmet wearers die in crashes.

    Maybe you also missed a buried disclaimer where they reported that many of those who died without wearing helmets would probably have died anyway do to massive trauma separate from any head injury sustained.

    Hardly "irrefutable" evidence that helmets work. Unless by "working" you mean that you can wear a helmet and still die in a bicycle accident, even via head injury.

    Quote Originally Posted by rekmeyata View Post
    You're seriously linking to a list of anecdotes?

    Quote Originally Posted by rekmeyata View Post
    More statistics and debunking of the helmets don't work crowd:
    Cycle helmets - an overview
    Did you read all of the article you link to, here? At the bottom, past where it delves into pro-helmet talk, it also goes over all the arguments against. Because the link you posted supports assertions you say are "mumbo jumbo" in support of your argument, you have just proven me true regarding the following statements you also dismissed as "mumbo jumbo":

    Quote Originally Posted by mconlonx View Post
    There's all kinds of studies which have been posted in this very thread refuting such claims of helmet efficacy.

    There's all kinds of studies which have been misquoted in this thread by both sides to support their claims.
    I know next to nothing. I am frequently wrong.

  21. #8071
    Senior Member rekmeyata's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wphamilton View Post
    I am the one who said he could refute the statistics on the site. I don't want to hash any of it out in detail, but I will say that assuming for the sake of argument that all of the numbers and data are correct, they don't lead to the conclusions drawn.
    That's all you have is an assumption, an assumption based on ignorance.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NF4MIEkIBZs

  22. #8072
    Senior Member rekmeyata's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mconlonx View Post
    Which states clearly that people still die in crashes even if they are wearing a helmet. 15% of all cyclists killed in 2010 were wearing helmets. The disingenuous part of that link is when they harp over and over again that "In 1996, 96% of those killed in bike accidents were not wearing helmets" when that is not even the latest figure they report and there's plenty of years when a much greater percentage of helmet wearers die in crashes.

    Maybe you also missed a buried disclaimer where they reported that many of those who died without wearing helmets would probably have died anyway do to massive trauma separate from any head injury sustained.

    Hardly "irrefutable" evidence that helmets work. Unless by "working" you mean that you can wear a helmet and still die in a bicycle accident, even via head injury.



    You're seriously linking to a list of anecdotes?



    Did you read all of the article you link to, here? At the bottom, past where it delves into pro-helmet talk, it also goes over all the arguments against. Because the link you posted supports assertions you say are "mumbo jumbo" in support of your argument, you have just proven me true regarding the following statements you also dismissed as "mumbo jumbo":
    Still can't disprove the statistics site that I mentioned but you conveniently failed to mentioned, I'm wanting you to disprove this site: Bicycle Helmet Statistics with well established facts backed up by statistics for here in America. Now toddle off and find the proof.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NF4MIEkIBZs

  23. #8073
    Nobody mconlonx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rekmeyata View Post
    Still can't disprove the statistics site that I mentioned but you conveniently failed to mentioned, I'm wanting you to disprove this site: Bicycle Helmet Statistics with well established facts backed up by statistics for here in America. Now toddle off and find the proof.
    I don't have to disprove the statistics when the statistics you quote don't prove what you say they prove and the sites you link also support what I said.

    BTW, tut-tut:

    Quote Originally Posted by rekmeyata View Post
    I'm just going to ignore you from now on because you just want to beat around the bush and not answer the question directly.
    Maybe do what you say?
    I know next to nothing. I am frequently wrong.

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    Senior Member elcruxio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rekmeyata View Post
    Still no proof that the statistics site is false, more mumbo jumbo. I'm just going to ignore you from now on because you just want to beat around the bush and not answer the question directly.
    Please do this. Soon you will have to ignore everybody and then there's no one for you to talk to.

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    rugged individualist wphamilton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rekmeyata View Post
    That's all you have is an assumption, an assumption based on ignorance.
    Eh? "Assuming for the sake of argument" that all of THEIR data are correct, that every number cited in YOUR arguments are right ... how is that an assumption based on MY ignorance?

    You understand that "assuming" or "granting" the truth of someone's stipulations in order to examine his conclusions isn't actually assuming that anything is actually true in reality?

    If you do understand that, then can you tell me specifically what assumption you believe that I have made? And how you came to believe that I am ignorant about it?
    Last edited by wphamilton; 06-25-14 at 01:03 PM.

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