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Advocacy & Safety Cyclists should expect and demand safe accommodation on every public road, just as do all other users. Discuss your bicycle advocacy and safety concerns here.

View Poll Results: Helmet wearing habits?
I've never worn a bike helmet 178 10.66%
I used to wear a helmet, but have stopped 94 5.63%
I've always worn a helmet 648 38.80%
I didn't wear a helmet, but now do 408 24.43%
I sometimes wear a helmet depending on the conditions 342 20.48%
Voters: 1670. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 03-05-12, 09:32 AM   #1751
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Just to temporarily threadjack, if I may: Why? Is it the cold or ice affecting braking? (doesn't really get all that cold here and I don't have steel rims...)
Steel rims are smooth polished chrome to protect against corrosion. A tiny bit of moisture acts like a lubricant. Both of these reduce the friction needed for effective braking. Steel was used because making sufficiently strong rims/wheels out of aluminum was more expensive.

Last edited by njkayaker; 03-05-12 at 09:37 AM.
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Old 03-05-12, 09:38 AM   #1752
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Just to temporarily threadjack, if I may: Why? Is it the cold or ice affecting braking? (doesn't really get all that cold here and I don't have steel rims...)
Here it's the wet primarily. My Raleigh Sports with brakes applied in the wet is barely different than it is without brakes applied.

If you've never ridden 70s bike boom gaspipe with steel rims, you'd likely be appalled at how poorly those brakes work in dry conditions.

Even dual pivot brakes provided a huge braking improvement as they hit mass market road bikes in the 1990s.
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Old 03-05-12, 09:51 AM   #1753
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They would, of course, be wrong in saying this. Certainly, no respectable health professional would say that anything would "prevent" strokes.

Because you won't get why your statement is funny: you keep saying (paraphrasing a bit) that helmets are worthless because no one claims they "prevent" concussions!
I suppose the obvious comeback would be that the science showing the role of regular aerobic exercise helping prevent strokes is far more sound than the science that shows helmets help prevent brain injuries.
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Old 03-05-12, 10:35 AM   #1754
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I suppose the obvious comeback would be that the science showing the role of regular aerobic exercise helping prevent strokes is far more sound than the science that shows helmets help prevent brain injuries.
That comeback would be "obvious" only to somebody who still doesn't get it.

Again, this is wrong. Strokes happen even in people who exercise regularly.

What exercise (and other things) do is reduce the rate of strokes. Nothing "prevents" them.
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Old 03-05-12, 11:33 AM   #1755
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I hope I'm not offending anyone by not being as articulate as some would like me to be.

I think the point is still valid though. Aerobic exercise reduces the rate of brain injury with greater success than helmet usage does.

(and the numbers of stroke victims are far greater than the numbers of bare headed brain damaged cyclist)

( - did I say that right? - )
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Old 03-05-12, 12:35 PM   #1756
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I think the point is still valid though. Aerobic exercise reduces the rate of brain injury with greater success than helmet usage does.

(and the numbers of stroke victims are far greater than the numbers of bare headed brain damaged cyclist)

( - did I say that right? - )
Yes. This is most likely (almost certainly) correct (of course, it depends highly on how much aerobic exercise is being done). Many, many cyclists don't cycle anywhere near enough for the aerobic exercise to have any real benefit.

And, of course, by itself, this statement (being true) really doesn't address the question of whether helmets work or whether they are (or can be) useful.

Note that I'm only criticizing your use of "prevent" for arguing for something (applied to strokes) and against something else (applied to concussions).

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Old 03-05-12, 12:55 PM   #1757
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... by itself, this statement (being true) really doesn't address the question of whether helmets work or whether they are (or can be) useful.
But it does provide a little perspective.

Some people are afraid of that which helps them

Last edited by closetbiker; 03-05-12 at 12:59 PM.
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Old 03-05-12, 01:15 PM   #1758
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My favorite pro helmet advice was a claim someone made that, they had fallen 3 times at 10 mph or less and the helmet they were wearing was destroyed, thus it had saved their life.
First, if you're falling that often at that speed, cycling isn't for you.
Second, if your hitting your head every time you fall, maybe you need to learn how to fall.
Third, just because your helmet turned into popcorn it doesn't mean your fate was death, it doesn't even prove a concussion was imminent. It proves helmets are designed to explode.
Don't get me wrong I'm not anti-helmet, I'm anti lie to you to get you to wear what we tell you is safer.
We've all seen a child riding a bike with a slipped helmet completely covering the kids eyes, right? self-fulfilling prophesy at work.
Helmets have their place, as do padded gloves, bike control, being aware of your surroundings and seeing.
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Old 03-05-12, 01:35 PM   #1759
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Yeah, it's funny how a number of posters don't answer questions. I'm sure we all have our reasons for doing so but I don't think you can say I haven't answered this question. I believe I said the data is in the tables, that the numbers of the different groups of cyclists observed were different.

As I posted earlier, I can accept if you don't agree with this. Heck, there still a number of people who don't agree helmet laws reduce the number of cyclists, but that's another matter.

Speaking of avoiding questions, I don't think you've answered my question about if you think a sense of fear of injury while riding bikes keeps people from riding bikes.
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Must have missed it -- where did you relay it here...?
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See? There's a reason. I asked, but you just didn't see it. People miss stuff all the time.

Of course you know we agree about the culture of fear stuff and I'm not surprised you agree fear keeps people from riding.

It seems the disention centers on what it is that whips up fear in riders or potential riders. Near mention of possibilities? Experiences?
So...

You ask me about my claim that you are fearmongering and I reply with a specific post citation; I ask you where you cited three "experts" in this thread -- your claim -- and you dissemble. Where, exactly, did you post opinions of three experts regarding the study in question in this thread...?

You seem more than willing to ease debate into marginally related topics; less than willing to engage in honest answers to relevant questions...
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Old 03-05-12, 02:11 PM   #1760
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.. You seem more than willing to ease debate into marginally related topics; less than willing to engage in honest answers to relevant questions...
It's easier to come to an understanding when the parties work from areas of agreement.

It's also easier to come to an understanding when the parties pay attention to what has been posted...
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Old 03-05-12, 02:24 PM   #1761
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But it does provide a little perspective.

Some people are afraid of that which helps them
The little bit of perspective it provides is useful as long as it not presented in a misleading manner.

Many people manage to get lots of "aerobic exercise" riding with a helmet (which means they are not necessarily mutually exclusive).

I don't know but I suspect that most people discouraged from riding by MHL weren't getting much "aerobic exercise" benefit from the riding they were doing. (And no one here is talking about MHL, which means that any discouragement due to MHL is some other discussion.)
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Old 03-05-12, 02:36 PM   #1762
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... Many people manage to get lots of "aerobic exercise" riding with a helmet (which means they are not necessarily mutually exclusive).

I don't know but I suspect that most people discouraged from riding by MHL weren't getting much "aerobic exercise" benefit from the riding they were doing...
most people don't get much in the way of aerobic exercise

I'm sure the evidence that says being active reduces the chances of brain injury via stroke is much more reliable than the evidence that says wearing a helmet does the same

Last edited by closetbiker; 03-05-12 at 03:35 PM.
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Old 03-05-12, 03:54 PM   #1763
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Steel rims are smooth polished chrome to protect against corrosion. A tiny bit of moisture acts like a lubricant. Both of these reduce the friction needed for effective braking. Steel was used because making sufficiently strong rims/wheels out of aluminum was more expensive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LesterOfPuppets View Post
Here it's the wet primarily. My Raleigh Sports with brakes applied in the wet is barely different than it is without brakes applied.

If you've never ridden 70s bike boom gaspipe with steel rims, you'd likely be appalled at how poorly those brakes work in dry conditions.

Even dual pivot brakes provided a huge braking improvement as they hit mass market road bikes in the 1990s.
Ah. Thanks, I figured it must be something to do with lack of grippiness and poor braking.
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Old 03-05-12, 04:11 PM   #1764
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My favorite pro helmet advice was a claim someone made that, they had fallen 3 times at 10 mph or less and the helmet they were wearing was destroyed, thus it had saved their life.
First, if you're falling that often at that speed, cycling isn't for you.
Second, if your hitting your head every time you fall, maybe you need to learn how to fall.
Third, just because your helmet turned into popcorn it doesn't mean your fate was death, it doesn't even prove a concussion was imminent. It proves helmets are designed to explode.
Don't get me wrong I'm not anti-helmet, I'm anti lie to you to get you to wear what we tell you is safer.
We've all seen a child riding a bike with a slipped helmet completely covering the kids eyes, right? self-fulfilling prophesy at work.
Helmets have their place, as do padded gloves, bike control, being aware of your surroundings and seeing.
+1 This exactly.
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Old 03-05-12, 04:17 PM   #1765
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If you've never ridden 70s bike boom gaspipe with steel rims, you'd likely be appalled at how poorly those brakes work in dry conditions.
Actually on the bikes that I converted from chrome-plated rims to aluminum I found that the dry braking performance got marginally worse, but it was still more than adequate. But the braking performance in wet conditions was greatly improved. Wet chrome rims frequently didn't seem to be braking at all until the wheels had gone around once or twice to let the brake pads start drying them.
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Old 03-05-12, 04:44 PM   #1766
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most people don't get much in the way of aerobic exercise

I'm sure the evidence that says being active reduces the chances of brain injury via stroke is much more reliable than the evidence that says wearing a helmet does the same
But using a helmet doesn't necessarily preclude getting the aerobic exercise (ed: from cycling).

Helmets might discourage riding but it would seems likely that most the people they might discourage don't ride enough to get any "aerobic exercise" benefit.

And, of course, any discouragement that MHL might induce is something else entirely. And next-to no one here is for MHL anyway.

Last edited by njkayaker; 03-06-12 at 07:25 AM. Reason: clearly, the exercise we are discussing is cycling
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Old 03-05-12, 06:06 PM   #1767
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It's easier to come to an understanding when the parties work from areas of agreement.

It's also easier to come to an understanding when the parties pay attention to what has been posted...
We agree on many things.

I answered specifically when you asked where I said something.

You refuse to do so.
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Old 03-05-12, 06:34 PM   #1768
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But using a helmet doesn't necessarily preclude getting the aerobic exercise..
Of course a helmet doesn't stop someone from exercise. It's the reliability of evidence of prevention between the 2 methods that's the issue
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Old 03-05-12, 06:58 PM   #1769
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Of course a helmet doesn't stop someone from exercise. It's the reliability of evidence of prevention between the 2 methods that's the issue
Only if you think that one should ignore all conclusions based on evidence that is less reliable than the stroke evidence.
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Old 03-05-12, 06:59 PM   #1770
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Helmets might discourage riding but it would seems likely that most the people they might discourage don't ride enough to get any "aerobic exercise" benefit.

And, of course, any discouragement that MHL might induce is something else entirely. And next-to no one here is for MHL anyway.
Agreed that ardent cyclists are unlikely to be discouraged.

But someone who is discouraged from being even a casual cyclist is then unlikely to later become an enthusiast. And while cycling among adults doesn't seem to be diminishing in the US, I see far fewer children cycling now than even 15 years ago - and there are many more jurisdictions that have MHLs for children than for adults. Will those who never did much cycling as kids be as likely to even think about becoming cyclists as adults?
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Old 03-05-12, 07:27 PM   #1771
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We agree on many things.

I answered specifically when you asked where I said something.

You refuse to do so.
Dude. If I do the same thing for you 3 times, I'm not helping you, I'm enabling you.

Last edited by closetbiker; 03-05-12 at 08:24 PM.
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Old 03-05-12, 07:28 PM   #1772
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Only if you think that one should ignore all conclusions based on evidence that is less reliable than the stroke evidence.
evidence that has less reliability should be given less weight than evidence that is been proven to be more reliable.
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Old 03-05-12, 07:35 PM   #1773
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Agreed that ardent cyclists are unlikely to be discouraged.

But someone who is discouraged from being even a casual cyclist is then unlikely to later become an enthusiast.
Who really knows if this is "unlikely" or not.

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And while cycling among adults doesn't seem to be diminishing in the US, I see far fewer children cycling now than even 15 years ago - and there are many more jurisdictions that have MHLs for children than for adults. Will those who never did much cycling as kids be as likely to even think about becoming cyclists as adults?
It's very hard to say whether it's MHL's for children that are reducing the numbers of child cyclists since there is a general trend of less activity in children (and adults). Fewer children walk (to school, for example) too.

Interestingly, not many people seem to object to children wearing helmets (or child-specific MHL's)!

Last edited by njkayaker; 03-05-12 at 07:42 PM.
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Old 03-05-12, 07:39 PM   #1774
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evidence that has less reliability should be given less weight than evidence that is been proven to be more reliable.
Kind of obvious but so what? There doesn't seem to be any clear personal downside to using a helmet even if the benefits don't have "reliable" evidence to support it.

Last edited by njkayaker; 03-05-12 at 07:43 PM.
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Old 03-05-12, 08:29 PM   #1775
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Kind of obvious but so what? There doesn't seem to be any clear personal downside to using a helmet even if the benefits don't have "reliable" evidence to support it.
If the benefits don't have "reliable" evidence to support it, there doesn't seem to be any clear personal upside to it either.

This compared to the significant upside to increased health benefits.

Last edited by closetbiker; 03-05-12 at 09:52 PM.
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