View Poll Results: Helmet wearing habits?
I've never worn a bike helmet
178
10.66%
I used to wear a helmet, but have stopped
94
5.63%
I've always worn a helmet
648
38.80%
I didn't wear a helmet, but now do
408
24.43%
I sometimes wear a helmet depending on the conditions
342
20.48%
Voters: 1670. You may not vote on this poll
The helmet thread
#6101
Senior Member
Fine. Want to argue the opposite, that the more you ride the greater the chances you will crash your bike?
#6102
Been Around Awhile
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Posts: 29,971
Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked 1,534 Times
in
1,044 Posts
No, I would argue, and have more than once, that any person (or study) that draws conclusions about bicycle safety/risk from data focused on number of "crashes," without a clue about the effects (severity of injuries) of those "crashes" is drawing a conclusion no more intelligent than a wild donkey guess.
#6103
Bicikli Huszár
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Fresno, CA
Posts: 2,116
Bikes: '95 Novara Randonee
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
The basic point is that there is a heavy penalty with a fall that involves a head impact. How those falls happens matters less to the idea of a helmet for when they do occur. It's pretty simple, a helmet is designed to make a fall to ground survivable in terms of head injuries. They are capable of that. Arguing that not wearing one is a better idea because they don't do as well when hitting a brick wall at the speed of sound is pretty silly, especially in the face of folks that have died as the result of a head injury while riding. It's happened enough times to enough people to know that it's a good idea whether we've avoided those impacts to date or not. If the argument was that current designs are doing something that keeps something better off of your head, then someone might have a valid point, but they simply offer a better alternative than hitting the ground without one in terms of a clear line between surviving and not surviving. They can't make pancakes for breakfast.
#6104
Bicikli Huszár
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Fresno, CA
Posts: 2,116
Bikes: '95 Novara Randonee
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
It is a matter of leadership for kids too. Kids are generally not only more likely to be riding, but also more likely to crash and crash poorly. I hope any kids seeing me riding take note of the helmet rather than the cigarette, even though their parents may be telling them to wear one already. Nobody is calling a helmet a replacement for any broad term of common sense or anything else. People are just calling it a good and worthy idea to wear one, and to take due care as well. Some folks may also be in to seeing more dedicated bike lanes on roads, trails, and other advocacy as well. It's not an all or nothing proposition.
The only all or nothing proposition is when you need a helmet and are not wearing one.
#6105
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Posts: 38,696
Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter
Mentioned: 140 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5774 Post(s)
Liked 2,571 Times
in
1,423 Posts
There are two things at work, the rate of accident or injury, and the likelihood.
Experience drives down the rate, so for any number of hours or miles or however you measure, the likelihood of an accident is lower. However the actual lifetime (or annual likelihood depends on how often, long (time) or far you ride. More riding time ], more exposure to risk, albeit at a possibly lower rate.
Also the benefits of experience plateau at some point, so thereafter the plot lines cross and the risk of injury (total, not per mile) start to climb again.
So we can say both that experienced, active, every day riders tend to be safer, and also that those who ride more are more likely to have an accident (eventually).
The accident vs. injury data is muddy because most data collected is based on hospital ER visits. So accidents that don't lead to injury and those that lead to minor injuries aren't counted, creating an understatement in the total accident rate. Likewise minor injuries aren't counted, skewing the reported data toward severe injuries. So if one doesn't read the data with a grain (or more) of salt, one will be led to an inaccurate conclusion that head injuries, and broken bones are highly likely in a bicycle crash, when actually the opposite is true.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
#6106
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Southern California
Posts: 588
Bikes: Gary Fisher Hi-Fi Deluxe, Giant Stance, Cannondale Synapse, Diamondback 8sp IGH, 1989 Merckx
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 51 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times
in
2 Posts
Some years ago (1986), after I researched and wrote an article for Bicycle Rider (now defunct) about bicycle helmets, I was contacted by a PhD candidate from the University of Illinois at Chicago. He was trying to learn what he could about bicycle accident head injuries amongst children. I did what I could for him, which was almost nothing. After about three months we both concluded that there was not enough useful data to conclude anything except that America didn't care enough about its children to bother studying the matter.
My beloved Professor Hurt conducted what he called the "death study" in the late '80s. He had a 'red phone' that various police departments, in the Los Angeles area, would call when they were at the scene of a fatal accident where the fatality was a motorcyclist. He would then study, in person, the decedent from the scene of the accident (all 139 of them were male) through autopsy.
The sample was kinda small but Harry was able to make some useful conclusions:
Medical examiners almost universally declared the cause of death to be a head injury if a fatal head injury was present; they tended to stop looking for other fatal injuries if they found a head injury, and, they tended look for head injuries first. He was present at all 139 autopsies and often found it necessary to insist on further work after the examiner had found a fatal head injury.
Most of the deaths were due to head injuries only -- if the rider was not wearing a helmet.
Those wearing helmets who died from a head injury also suffered 3.1 other fatal injuries.
The ratio of death by head injury only for those not wearing a helmet to those wearing them was about 250:1
He reasonably concluded that helmets work.
I don't bother me about apples and oranges; most bicycle helmets would come close to passing the DOT drop-test requirements for motorcycle helmets. It may be easy, sitting at our computers, to dismiss the small chance of suffering a debilitating brain injury from a fall off one of our bicycles, but -- I guarantee that you would be hauntingly affected if you could interview a couple of permanent residents at Ranch Los Amigos (Los Angeles) who are there because of their permanent brain injuries. Such interviews can be difficult because those affected are often no longer capable of sensible speech. Remember: brain injuries are permanent and affect one's entire future in a very bad way. I do not care to take that chance, small as it may be.
BTW: I have ridden motorcycles more than 600,000 miles and bicycles over 30,000. I have never, in the dozen or so times I have fallen or "thrown it away" struck my head. I have consistently worn helmets starting with the Kucharik (sp?) 'hair net' in 1962. Never put a scratch on the finish of a helmet, but, I wear one anytime I am going to go faster than I can run. I have interviewed brain-injured folks and still hear their voices (they tend to speak in a hollow monotone) often and even as I write this.
BTW#2: Almost (all) cars sold, since about '82, in the USA are helmets. All the rounding, recessing and padding of our car's interiors make it very unlikely that we'll experience more than 80gs in most accidents. Those who argue that car drivers should have to wear helmets if bicyclists and motorcyclists must just don't know how much their "cages" are helmets.
I honor and support one's right to not wear a helmet, but, I believe that such a decision should be an informed one. I also reserve the right to dial 911 and then walk away from someone who has put a dent in his head and has blood running out of his ears – there are enough faces in my nightmares as it is.
Joe
My beloved Professor Hurt conducted what he called the "death study" in the late '80s. He had a 'red phone' that various police departments, in the Los Angeles area, would call when they were at the scene of a fatal accident where the fatality was a motorcyclist. He would then study, in person, the decedent from the scene of the accident (all 139 of them were male) through autopsy.
The sample was kinda small but Harry was able to make some useful conclusions:
Medical examiners almost universally declared the cause of death to be a head injury if a fatal head injury was present; they tended to stop looking for other fatal injuries if they found a head injury, and, they tended look for head injuries first. He was present at all 139 autopsies and often found it necessary to insist on further work after the examiner had found a fatal head injury.
Most of the deaths were due to head injuries only -- if the rider was not wearing a helmet.
Those wearing helmets who died from a head injury also suffered 3.1 other fatal injuries.
The ratio of death by head injury only for those not wearing a helmet to those wearing them was about 250:1
He reasonably concluded that helmets work.
I don't bother me about apples and oranges; most bicycle helmets would come close to passing the DOT drop-test requirements for motorcycle helmets. It may be easy, sitting at our computers, to dismiss the small chance of suffering a debilitating brain injury from a fall off one of our bicycles, but -- I guarantee that you would be hauntingly affected if you could interview a couple of permanent residents at Ranch Los Amigos (Los Angeles) who are there because of their permanent brain injuries. Such interviews can be difficult because those affected are often no longer capable of sensible speech. Remember: brain injuries are permanent and affect one's entire future in a very bad way. I do not care to take that chance, small as it may be.
BTW: I have ridden motorcycles more than 600,000 miles and bicycles over 30,000. I have never, in the dozen or so times I have fallen or "thrown it away" struck my head. I have consistently worn helmets starting with the Kucharik (sp?) 'hair net' in 1962. Never put a scratch on the finish of a helmet, but, I wear one anytime I am going to go faster than I can run. I have interviewed brain-injured folks and still hear their voices (they tend to speak in a hollow monotone) often and even as I write this.
BTW#2: Almost (all) cars sold, since about '82, in the USA are helmets. All the rounding, recessing and padding of our car's interiors make it very unlikely that we'll experience more than 80gs in most accidents. Those who argue that car drivers should have to wear helmets if bicyclists and motorcyclists must just don't know how much their "cages" are helmets.
I honor and support one's right to not wear a helmet, but, I believe that such a decision should be an informed one. I also reserve the right to dial 911 and then walk away from someone who has put a dent in his head and has blood running out of his ears – there are enough faces in my nightmares as it is.
Joe
Last edited by Joe Minton; 09-01-13 at 06:11 PM.
#6107
Bicikli Huszár
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Fresno, CA
Posts: 2,116
Bikes: '95 Novara Randonee
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I don't bother me about apples and oranges; most bicycle helmets would come close to passing the DOT drop-test requirements for motorcycle helmets. It may be easy, sitting at our computers, to dismiss the small chance of suffering a debilitating brain injury from a fall off one of our bicycles
This logic simply doesn't fly. It's an appeal to emotion, and nothing more.
#6108
Been Around Awhile
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Posts: 29,971
Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked 1,534 Times
in
1,044 Posts
The accident vs. injury data is muddy because most data collected is based on hospital ER visits. So accidents that don't lead to injury and those that lead to minor injuries aren't counted, creating an understatement in the total accident rate. Likewise minor injuries aren't counted, skewing the reported data toward severe injuries.
And even ER visits may involve no injury/slight injury "crashes" of the getting checked out, just in case variety. Especially if a helmet or head got scratched.
#6109
Senior Member
The data for some bicycle safety "studies" does not come from hospital ER visits but rather from self reporting of "crashes" from non-random samples of bicyclists; some of the infamous "studies" oft used to allegedly substantiate the safety claims of Vehicular Cycling advocates were just that type. In these "crash" studies, there was no filtering out of minor injuries or even no injury crashes.
And even ER visits may involve no injury/slight injury "crashes" of the getting checked out, just in case variety. Especially if a helmet or head got scratched.
And even ER visits may involve no injury/slight injury "crashes" of the getting checked out, just in case variety. Especially if a helmet or head got scratched.
For example:
S: The patient, a 27-year-old male presents with headache and tenderness on the right side of his head after falling from his bicycle when jumping the curb from street to sidewalk one hour previously. Patient reports no nerve-like radiation of pain nor tingling or numbness of the extremities. The patient denies any recent changes in vision, one-sided weakness, dysphagia or dysarthria. No recent changes in balance or ability to walk. No pain or numbness in any of the extremities is noted. Patient reports no LOC. Patient was not wearing a helmet.
O: PERLA. Skin: no lesions observed. Pulse within normal limits and regular. Respiration normal and unlabored. Muscle tone normal. Mental status: normally responsive. active range of the affected area(s) was pain-free and within normal limits. mild edema with localized tenderness to palpation noted superior to right supraorbital ridge. Cranial Nerves II-XII normally responsive bilaterally. Musce stretch reflex wnl bilaterally. upper and lower extremity muscle strength +5 bilaterally.
*OK. So what we have here is the situation I-Like-To-Bike described. Some guy whacked himself upside the head; he didn't lose consciousness, he shows no sign of neurolgical damage or even significant musculoskeletal damage. EVEN SO, I don't want this coming around and biting me in the ass. So here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to order a CT scan, just to make sure there is no fracture or bleed, for which the insurance company is going to say "screw off, ER doc" if I code him with a contusion. So I'm going to give him a concussion (unspecified) diagnosis code of 850.9, which is a billable diagnosis, and which certainly supports my orders.
Assessment: 850.9 (primary) E8xxx.xx (secondary; external causes of injury involving pedal cyclist)
Plan: CT
Now, researcher Dr. Ilovehelmets PhD comes along with his database sniffing tools, and this gets culled into the "unhelmeted cyclist, MTBI" category.
Which is bullhockey, as we can see from the notes. The guy got a headache, a bump and a bruise, and probably went home to nurse it better with a Guinness.
But you know what? Across the country, this exact scenario plays out. Every. Single. Day. Thus, these types of studies are horribly skewed from the outset.
#6110
Banned
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Lincoln Ne
Posts: 9,924
Bikes: RANS Stratus TerraTrike Tour II
Mentioned: 46 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3352 Post(s)
Liked 1,056 Times
in
635 Posts
Last weekend our local bike club held its Heatstroke 100, with approx 400 riders. They ALL were wearing their helmets. I wonder how many bull headed anti helmet riders stayed home because they wouldnt be caught wearing a helmet? Can you say anti social????
#6112
Senior Member
No, I would argue, and have more than once, that any person (or study) that draws conclusions about bicycle safety/risk from data focused on number of "crashes," without a clue about the effects (severity of injuries) of those "crashes" is drawing a conclusion no more intelligent than a wild donkey guess.
#6113
Been Around Awhile
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Posts: 29,971
Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked 1,534 Times
in
1,044 Posts
Depends on what you want that study to highlight, doesn't it? I guess the only weak link on my part regarding a study like this is that they are correlating crashes with safety. I suppose that's a safe supposition, but I'm sure there are people here who will tell me it's wrong...
#6114
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: SE Mich.
Posts: 77
Bikes: 2011 Specialized Dolce Sport Compact, .. Novara 2013 Madrona 29'er, Trek 520 2012, Surly Pugsley fatbike 2014
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Does everyone have auto, homeowners insurance, health insurance? We don't expect the worst to happen, but it does. I see my helmet as my head protective insurance. But .. it's your head, do what you want. Just keep in mind that a truly serious head injury might have been prevented had you worn that helmet and your family been spared the consequences of your actions. Speaking *your* in general, not pointing at anyone in particular.
#6115
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Posts: 38,696
Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter
Mentioned: 140 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5774 Post(s)
Liked 2,571 Times
in
1,423 Posts
Good and proper sentiment. We each have to make our own decisions on this along with every aspect of our lives.
Unfortunately, you felt the need to follow it with this life insurance salesman's guilt message. Following this logic, maybe one shouldn't ride a bicycle in the first place.
Unfortunately, you felt the need to follow it with this life insurance salesman's guilt message. Following this logic, maybe one shouldn't ride a bicycle in the first place.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
#6116
Senior Member
Please. Get ONE SINGLE MANUFACTURER to state that their helmet can prevent a "truly serious head injury."
In comparison, the manufacturers with cars that have seat belts and airbags are willing to state unequivocally that their safety devices do save lives, so don't give me the "they're scared of litigation" crap.
If you get a statement from ONE SINGLE HELMET MANUFACTURER that their helmet can preven a "truly serious head injury," I will contribute $150 to the bicycle charity of your choice.
My money is safe. You know why? Because bicycle helmets cannot prevent a serious head injury. Your head is protected equally from serious injury by either a bicycle helmet or by a plastic Jesus taped to your handlebars.
The choice is yours.
#6117
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Posts: 38,696
Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter
Mentioned: 140 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5774 Post(s)
Liked 2,571 Times
in
1,423 Posts
The debate about helmets shouldn't be over whether they offer protection, but about the level of protection (for those who wear them) and about whether the risk of head injury when cycling warrants protection in the first place. The latter depends on the rider and how and where they ride, and is a personal decision.
For my part I don't have to argue that helmets don't do anything to support my decision not to wear one.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
#6118
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: SE Mich.
Posts: 77
Bikes: 2011 Specialized Dolce Sport Compact, .. Novara 2013 Madrona 29'er, Trek 520 2012, Surly Pugsley fatbike 2014
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Please. Get ONE SINGLE MANUFACTURER to state that their helmet can prevent a "truly serious head injury."
In comparison, the manufacturers with cars that have seat belts and airbags are willing to state unequivocally that their safety devices do save lives, so don't give me the "they're scared of litigation" crap.
If you get a statement from ONE SINGLE HELMET MANUFACTURER that their helmet can preven a "truly serious head injury," I will contribute $150 to the bicycle charity of your choice.
My money is safe. You know why? Because bicycle helmets cannot prevent a serious head injury. Your head is protected equally from serious injury by either a bicycle helmet or by a plastic Jesus taped to your handlebars.
The choice is yours.
In comparison, the manufacturers with cars that have seat belts and airbags are willing to state unequivocally that their safety devices do save lives, so don't give me the "they're scared of litigation" crap.
If you get a statement from ONE SINGLE HELMET MANUFACTURER that their helmet can preven a "truly serious head injury," I will contribute $150 to the bicycle charity of your choice.
My money is safe. You know why? Because bicycle helmets cannot prevent a serious head injury. Your head is protected equally from serious injury by either a bicycle helmet or by a plastic Jesus taped to your handlebars.
The choice is yours.
#6119
Senior Member
I don't wear a helmet, but the idea that helmets do little or nothing to prevent serious injury is as inaccurate as the belief that they prevent most or all serious injuries. Helmets mitigate brain or head injury by lowering the G-force of impacts. An impact that might result in a mild concussion, might be mitigated to no injury. An impact that might have caused a severe concussion or skull fracture may be mitigated to a mild concussion w/o skull fracture.
Secondly, serious TBI is not caused by the linear forces of impact. TBI is caused by the diffuse axonal injury that occurs with rotation. There is evidence that helmets not only do not mitigate such forces, but may, in fact, magnify them.
#6120
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: SE Mich.
Posts: 77
Bikes: 2011 Specialized Dolce Sport Compact, .. Novara 2013 Madrona 29'er, Trek 520 2012, Surly Pugsley fatbike 2014
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Good and proper sentiment. We each have to make our own decisions on this along with every aspect of our lives.
Unfortunately, you felt the need to follow it with this life insurance salesman's guilt message. Following this logic, maybe one shouldn't ride a bicycle in the first place.
Unfortunately, you felt the need to follow it with this life insurance salesman's guilt message. Following this logic, maybe one shouldn't ride a bicycle in the first place.
Like I said .. my helmet is just added insurance to protect MY head, which was reinforced after what my daughter experienced .. that was a wake up call that bad things happen when least expected. My daughter is a very good rider, properly trained her horses to be safe & obedient, but her school horse had other ideas.
#6121
Been Around Awhile
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Posts: 29,971
Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked 1,534 Times
in
1,044 Posts
#6122
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: SE Mich.
Posts: 77
Bikes: 2011 Specialized Dolce Sport Compact, .. Novara 2013 Madrona 29'er, Trek 520 2012, Surly Pugsley fatbike 2014
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
#6124
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: SE Mich.
Posts: 77
Bikes: 2011 Specialized Dolce Sport Compact, .. Novara 2013 Madrona 29'er, Trek 520 2012, Surly Pugsley fatbike 2014
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
She makes her 3 yr old son wear a helmet when he is on his bike.
https://thelcn.com/2012/03/01/every-t....popZrQpK.dpbs
Last edited by kris7047th; 09-02-13 at 12:41 PM.
#6125
Been Around Awhile
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Posts: 29,971
Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked 1,534 Times
in
1,044 Posts