VIDEO : reasonable use of narrow lane, 55mph state highway
#201
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Originally Posted by ennis county superior court
.....constituted willful or wanton disregard for the safety of persons or property.
And so based on that, I am going to find you guilty of reckless driving.
And so based on that, I am going to find you guilty of reckless driving.
What a contrived mash-up of justice and quantum bicycle techniques, that goes something like this - Ride however you want, you won't ride afoul of the law, and if convicted, you're not guilty of anything!
Riders, beware the usupportable claims of those that would lead you into reckless operation of your bicycle. ride smart, ride safe, ride right (correctly, george!) according to traffic and road conditions at the time.
Ride reasonably to share the road with faster traffic. take the lane as needed for your safety, and move away from the right as is reasonably necessary according to road and traffic conditions at the time.
Do not neglect your duty to share the road and share the road considerately with faster traffic. Riders do not have the right to unduly and unceasingly obstruct traffic on a two lane road because they read at bike forums some erstwhile bicycling 'expert' *cough* thinks traffic laws and long standing conventions about sharing the road do not apply on two lane blacktop.
Beware faulty visions of the vehikular cyklist crewe. Avoid clubs (cults) of riders that feel riders can stay doubled up incessantly if 'same lane passing' isn't possible and cars might have to cross over the lane line to safely pass. Avoid clubs or individual riders that suggest a style of riding unceasingly left in a 13 foot wide lane for miles on end in the face of faster traffic behind, because 'the law says so'.
That is an overreach of our rights, in most every state. Riders, beware - the Florida nightmare rolls north.
i'm waiting for video of this new 'just take the marked lane on two lane roads' technique and how well that's been working out for John or sgoodri in North Carolina. I'm still waiting for video of solo riders exercising that technique on a road similar to the video, and how well that's been working out for them.
Until then - and afterward as well -
Do not listen to the wild and unsupportable claims about biking by those that defend reckless bicycling. Avoid bad advocacy.
Since we've topped yet another page on this apparently hot button topic of how to reasonably share rural high speed two lane roads, here's the video to keep it front and center as this threads' topic -
Reasonable use of a 55mph two lane state highway with 'unshareable' lanes and an unusable shoulder.
Last edited by Bekologist; 10-12-11 at 04:49 AM.
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Originally Posted by Bekologist
Originally Posted by ennis county superior court
I’m sympathetic to the defendant’s blight. In fact, what he was doing was in many ways very admirable, trying to get a job, exercising every means at his disposal to try to regain gainful employment, and utilizing the resources that he had available to him at the time to provide that he had available to him at the time to provide for his own needs without relying upon other people. And so in many respects his conduct’s admirable. And in many respects, it’s lawful. As the parties were arguing and even some of the evidence earlier, trying to think of an example that might apply and I don’t know that this is a good example, but this is the one that came to mind, is that it’s not unlawful for a boy to swing a bat. In fact, it’s good for them, it’s good exercise, it’s good for them to participate in athletics and be in team sports and things of that nature.
But there are times when swinging a bat can become more dangerous, get into a crowded room or you get into circumstances, the swinging of the bat circumstances can change in such a way that if you put other people at peril even if you’re not at risk of being hurt, they might be injured by the way that you’re doing something that otherwise is completely lawful.
And there are times when it can even go beyond that where it’s reckless to where it could even be construed as knowing that there’s a high likelihood that somebody would get hurt if you continue that type of behavior and at some point, some people can infer by your conduct that you’re intentionally putting other people at risk, so that you could be accused of assault and even at times aggravated assault with a deadly weapon with a piece of wood that otherwise completely lawful to be utilizing. So there’s a spectrum there that has to be taken into consideration. And there needs to be good judgement utilized by people not only with regard to their own safety but to the safety of others. And you may be right. It may have been safer for you under some circumstances to ride in the middle of the roadway, but that doesn’t mean that it doesn’t create a hazard for other people at times. And it may even jeopardize your own safety under certain circumstances. You have to take into consideration the safety of other persons and their property under those circumstances."
"It appeared to be at least in the center of the roadway and at times, maybe even be closer to the center stripe for a portion of that time. I’m sympathetic with the fact that there’s not designated biking lanes on enough of our roadways to accommodate a bicycle traveler. It would certainly do a lot to relieve a lot of the concerns we have regarding numerous issues including, physical health, obesity, and consumption of oil and petroleum products. However, that’s not really part of the decision I’m making today.
Even though it may have been permissible for you to be in the right lane of traffic, operating the motor vehicle or your bicycle in the presence of motor vehicles, at this particular occasion, you were presenting a hazard to other vehicles. And you may not have been aware of it up until that point, but once the officers made you aware of the concerns that have been reported and the numerous calls that had been made regarding the circumstances on that day, for to you disregard that warning and return back into that same state of operating your bicycle in the presence of motor vehicles on that roadway on that day it constituted willful or wanton disregard for the safety of persons or property.
And so based on that, I am going to find you guilty of reckless driving."
Originally Posted by ennis county superior court
I’m sympathetic to the defendant’s blight. In fact, what he was doing was in many ways very admirable, trying to get a job, exercising every means at his disposal to try to regain gainful employment, and utilizing the resources that he had available to him at the time to provide that he had available to him at the time to provide for his own needs without relying upon other people. And so in many respects his conduct’s admirable. And in many respects, it’s lawful. As the parties were arguing and even some of the evidence earlier, trying to think of an example that might apply and I don’t know that this is a good example, but this is the one that came to mind, is that it’s not unlawful for a boy to swing a bat. In fact, it’s good for them, it’s good exercise, it’s good for them to participate in athletics and be in team sports and things of that nature.
But there are times when swinging a bat can become more dangerous, get into a crowded room or you get into circumstances, the swinging of the bat circumstances can change in such a way that if you put other people at peril even if you’re not at risk of being hurt, they might be injured by the way that you’re doing something that otherwise is completely lawful.
And there are times when it can even go beyond that where it’s reckless to where it could even be construed as knowing that there’s a high likelihood that somebody would get hurt if you continue that type of behavior and at some point, some people can infer by your conduct that you’re intentionally putting other people at risk, so that you could be accused of assault and even at times aggravated assault with a deadly weapon with a piece of wood that otherwise completely lawful to be utilizing. So there’s a spectrum there that has to be taken into consideration. And there needs to be good judgement utilized by people not only with regard to their own safety but to the safety of others. And you may be right. It may have been safer for you under some circumstances to ride in the middle of the roadway, but that doesn’t mean that it doesn’t create a hazard for other people at times. And it may even jeopardize your own safety under certain circumstances. You have to take into consideration the safety of other persons and their property under those circumstances."
"It appeared to be at least in the center of the roadway and at times, maybe even be closer to the center stripe for a portion of that time. I’m sympathetic with the fact that there’s not designated biking lanes on enough of our roadways to accommodate a bicycle traveler. It would certainly do a lot to relieve a lot of the concerns we have regarding numerous issues including, physical health, obesity, and consumption of oil and petroleum products. However, that’s not really part of the decision I’m making today.
Even though it may have been permissible for you to be in the right lane of traffic, operating the motor vehicle or your bicycle in the presence of motor vehicles, at this particular occasion, you were presenting a hazard to other vehicles. And you may not have been aware of it up until that point, but once the officers made you aware of the concerns that have been reported and the numerous calls that had been made regarding the circumstances on that day, for to you disregard that warning and return back into that same state of operating your bicycle in the presence of motor vehicles on that roadway on that day it constituted willful or wanton disregard for the safety of persons or property.
And so based on that, I am going to find you guilty of reckless driving."
The quote didn't say what the rider was doing, only that he wasn't breaking a specific traffic law, but somehow his actions rose to the level of reckless driving. The judge even goes so far as to say being in the right lane is permissible. This level of arbitrariness should be troubling to anyone who rides a bicycle. It sounds like the judge and LEOs didn't think the rider should have been on that road that day at all. If that's the case, then the activity should be made illegal.
There well may have been more to what the rider did wrong, but with the limited information posted, I am troubled by what appears to be an arbitrary judgement.
The analogy the judge uses of the boy swing the bat in a crowded room is simply ridiculous. What risk did the cyclist pose to other responsible road users? Was he going too slow for the flow of traffic even though there was no minimum speed limit? What if someone in a car had been doing the same thing? Would the result have been the same? I have to wonder. Thankfully examples of this kind of justice are few and far between.
On the other side of the coin, people who ignore the warnings of LEOs are asking for trouble. Even when you suspect LE may be wrong, it's best to simply cooperate at the moment and seek remedy through a more appropriate venue.
#203
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I wouldn't be too worried about it. Reed, as poster boy for unreasonable lane use, took his riding to a level of reckless disregard of others.
The judge was quite clear as to what, specifically, reed was doing. that's why i highlighted some of the key portions - his riding near the center of the roadway at times and even to the center stripe at times rose to the level of reckless disregard for other road users.
The poster boy for UN-reasonable road use, convicted of reckless driving of his bicycle.
be reasonable about road and lane position while riding your bicycle.
The judge was quite clear as to what, specifically, reed was doing. that's why i highlighted some of the key portions - his riding near the center of the roadway at times and even to the center stripe at times rose to the level of reckless disregard for other road users.
The poster boy for UN-reasonable road use, convicted of reckless driving of his bicycle.
be reasonable about road and lane position while riding your bicycle.
Last edited by Bekologist; 10-12-11 at 06:21 AM.
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I wouldn't be too worried about it. Reed, as poster boy for unreasonable lane use, took his riding to a level of reckless disregard of others.
The judge was quite clear as to what, specifically, reed was doing. that's why i highlighted some of the key portions - his riding near the center of the roadway at times and even to the center stripe at times rose to the level of reckless disregard for other road users.
The poster boy for UN-reasonable road use, convicted of reckless driving of his bicycle.
be reasonable about road and lane position while riding your bicycle.
The judge was quite clear as to what, specifically, reed was doing. that's why i highlighted some of the key portions - his riding near the center of the roadway at times and even to the center stripe at times rose to the level of reckless disregard for other road users.
The poster boy for UN-reasonable road use, convicted of reckless driving of his bicycle.
be reasonable about road and lane position while riding your bicycle.
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#206
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Waving while riding a bike, for any reason, is extremely dangerous, especially on roads.
Also, unless you are signaling a turn using standard hand signals -- and only when it is absolutely safe to take your left hand off of your bars -- you have no business waving at motorists, bikers for greetings... and most certainly not for made-up hand signals, which are likely to add confusion to the already dangerous situation of a one-handed rider.
Also, unless you are signaling a turn using standard hand signals -- and only when it is absolutely safe to take your left hand off of your bars -- you have no business waving at motorists, bikers for greetings... and most certainly not for made-up hand signals, which are likely to add confusion to the already dangerous situation of a one-handed rider.
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Waving while riding a bike, for any reason, is extremely dangerous, especially on roads.
Also, unless you are signaling a turn using standard hand signals -- and only when it is absolutely safe to take your left hand off of your bars -- you have no business waving at motorists, bikers for greetings... and most certainly not for made-up hand signals, which are likely to add confusion to the already dangerous situation of a one-handed rider.
Also, unless you are signaling a turn using standard hand signals -- and only when it is absolutely safe to take your left hand off of your bars -- you have no business waving at motorists, bikers for greetings... and most certainly not for made-up hand signals, which are likely to add confusion to the already dangerous situation of a one-handed rider.
Do I need to stop my bike to take a bottle out of the cage to drink?
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55 mph narrow.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0aOCvU5THs
Here is a narrow 55mph
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKQwmXVyaJc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0aOCvU5THs
Here is a narrow 55mph
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKQwmXVyaJc
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Originally Posted by John Forester
Bek, you really are unable to understand anything but the motorists' point of view, of motorist superiority and cyclist inferiority.
It is not idiotic at all. Probably the majority of American cyclists think in the motorist-superiority, cyclist-inferiority manner, because that has been the social belief for seventy years or so. In the case of Bek, consider the evidence. I don't recall any written discussion in which Bek failed to prefer the motorists' view to the vehicular-cycling view.
Bek, you really are unable to understand anything but the motorists' point of view, of motorist superiority and cyclist inferiority.
It is not idiotic at all. Probably the majority of American cyclists think in the motorist-superiority, cyclist-inferiority manner, because that has been the social belief for seventy years or so. In the case of Bek, consider the evidence. I don't recall any written discussion in which Bek failed to prefer the motorists' view to the vehicular-cycling view.
#210
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I can do a lot of things while riding, such as getting my water bottle, taking a drink, and replacing it.
Waving, however, is preposterously unnecessary. Made-up hand signals to drivers are even worse.
Deal with it.
And do yourself and everybody on the road a favor and don't try to direct traffic while you're riding.
#211
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Originally Posted by spike
Made-up hand signals are dangerous. Period.
A hand signal to help traffic stay back is an effective tool many riders employ regularly, absolutely.
'officially recognized'? no. officially prohibited? no. useful and widely recognized by motorists? yes.
the simple act of putting my hand out takes a foot more of the lane, physically, easy. Its the lazy mans' way to 'move left' in the lane. But hey - i didn't put the video up to show hand signals, the video doesn't even show my hands much.....
I posted the video of reasonable and considerate use of a narrow lane 55 mph state highway with 'unshareable lanes' and an unuseable shoulder. do not listen to advocates that wildly posture that riders can ride relentlessly, unreasonably left on two lane blacktop or far to the left in a 13 foot lane 'coz the law sez so' in their state.
THAT unreasonable interpretation of the law is an aggrandizement of cyclists rights and responsibilities as road users.
Ride smart, ride safely and responsibly. Stay true to your own safety and your duty of care to others. ride reasonably away from the edge for safety when faster traffic wishes to overtake.
the laws of most states allows a far left in the lane if reasonably necessary for your safety, not relentlessly, when faster traffic is behind and wishing to overtake. My suggestion is to take as much of the lane as needed for your safety ora fair bit of it in the absence of other traffic, if allowed where you ride.
My video is illustrative of reasonable use of a narrow, two lane lane state highway with an un-useable shoulder.
Last edited by Bekologist; 10-12-11 at 01:17 PM.
#212
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A hand signal to help traffic stay back is an effective tool many riders employ regularly, absolutely.
'officially recognized'? no. officially prohibited? no. useful and widely recognized by motorists? yes.
the simple act of putting my hand out takes a foot more of the lane, physically, easy. Its the lazy mans' way to 'move left' in the lane.
'officially recognized'? no. officially prohibited? no. useful and widely recognized by motorists? yes.
the simple act of putting my hand out takes a foot more of the lane, physically, easy. Its the lazy mans' way to 'move left' in the lane.
I live in the real world where not getting killed by some texting idiot is more important than making mysterious gestures which drivers can mirthfully decode and then dutifully obey.
Stick your hand out a foot into a lane you're not riding in, to hold back traffic (or whatever it is you're trying to do) and you're very likely to be needing a bandage for your hand.
#213
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whatever you say, spike! I live in a land of moss and honey
If you don't feel comfortable enhancing your potential safety buffer or communicating with others when you're travelling using a hand signal every now and again, i'm not recommending you compromise your riding in that regard.
I prefer a little superfluous signaling every now and again, just to give a little nod to my fellow road users.
oh, yeah- motorcycle riders do that. I wonder if it's legal, and who cares?
If you don't feel comfortable enhancing your potential safety buffer or communicating with others when you're travelling using a hand signal every now and again, i'm not recommending you compromise your riding in that regard.
I prefer a little superfluous signaling every now and again, just to give a little nod to my fellow road users.
oh, yeah- motorcycle riders do that. I wonder if it's legal, and who cares?
Last edited by Bekologist; 10-12-11 at 01:41 PM.
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Oh, I don't know. Just because someone rides a bicycle it doesn't mean that they have any particular understanding.
It's interesting that you'd single out John, though, while Bekologist has advanced a conspiracy theory a few posts before.
It's interesting that you'd single out John, though, while Bekologist has advanced a conspiracy theory a few posts before.
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Originally Posted by John Forester
Bek, you really are unable to understand anything but the motorists' point of view, of motorist superiority and cyclist inferiority.
It is not idiotic at all. Probably the majority of American cyclists think in the motorist-superiority, cyclist-inferiority manner, because that has been the social belief for seventy years or so. In the case of Bek, consider the evidence. I don't recall any written discussion in which Bek failed to prefer the motorists' view to the vehicular-cycling view.
Bek, you really are unable to understand anything but the motorists' point of view, of motorist superiority and cyclist inferiority.
It is not idiotic at all. Probably the majority of American cyclists think in the motorist-superiority, cyclist-inferiority manner, because that has been the social belief for seventy years or so. In the case of Bek, consider the evidence. I don't recall any written discussion in which Bek failed to prefer the motorists' view to the vehicular-cycling view.
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Explain how that's even remotely possible. You might as well say that a baseball player doesn't need to understand the rules of the game in order to play it.
#217
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whatever you say, spike! I live in a land of moss and honey
If you don't feel comfortable enhancing your potential safety buffer or communicating with others when you're travelling using a hand signal every now and again, i'm not recommending you compromise your riding in that regard.
I prefer a little superfluous signaling every now and again, just to give a little nod to my fellow road users.
oh, yeah- motorcycle riders do that. I wonder if it's legal, and who cares?
If you don't feel comfortable enhancing your potential safety buffer or communicating with others when you're travelling using a hand signal every now and again, i'm not recommending you compromise your riding in that regard.
I prefer a little superfluous signaling every now and again, just to give a little nod to my fellow road users.
oh, yeah- motorcycle riders do that. I wonder if it's legal, and who cares?
Waving is a distraction. Distractions are dangerous. On a bike, in a car, on a motorcycle. There is no other argument.
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And when I ride my MC, I keep my hands on the bars, regardless of how many bikers might get mad because I don't wave back at them. Who cares what some doofus going the other way thinks about me not waving at him to, what?, reinforce the brotherhood of dudes who wave at each other because they're on motorcycles?
Waving is a distraction. Distractions are dangerous. On a bike, in a car, on a motorcycle. There is no other argument.
Waving is a distraction. Distractions are dangerous. On a bike, in a car, on a motorcycle. There is no other argument.
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"reckless disregard n. grossly negligent without concern for danger to others. Actually reckless disregard is redundant since reckless means there is a disregard for safety. (See: reckless)"
Nothing Reed Bates was doing posed a danger to others.
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In general, I don't think motorists pay any attention to hand signals from a bicyclist.
In the case of the video, the motorists were probably a lot more focused on any threats to their safety from oncoming traffic, rather than Bek's hand signals. If anything, the hand signals probably only distracted motorists as they attempted to pass.
I don't mean to disparage the video or Bek, but to me the video only shows motorists going about their business as usual, and a guy riding a bike making lots of unnecessary and ineffective hand gestures.
I think it's likely that eventually someone would come along and misinterpret one of those signals as the international GTH / middle finger gesture.
In the case of the video, the motorists were probably a lot more focused on any threats to their safety from oncoming traffic, rather than Bek's hand signals. If anything, the hand signals probably only distracted motorists as they attempted to pass.
I don't mean to disparage the video or Bek, but to me the video only shows motorists going about their business as usual, and a guy riding a bike making lots of unnecessary and ineffective hand gestures.
I think it's likely that eventually someone would come along and misinterpret one of those signals as the international GTH / middle finger gesture.
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Made-up hand signals are dangerous. Period.
I can do a lot of things while riding, such as getting my water bottle, taking a drink, and replacing it.
Waving, however, is preposterously unnecessary. Made-up hand signals to drivers are even worse.
Deal with it.
And do yourself and everybody on the road a favor and don't try to direct traffic while you're riding.
I can do a lot of things while riding, such as getting my water bottle, taking a drink, and replacing it.
Waving, however, is preposterously unnecessary. Made-up hand signals to drivers are even worse.
Deal with it.
And do yourself and everybody on the road a favor and don't try to direct traffic while you're riding.
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You must live in a magical land where drivers look for your hand signals and then obey them.
I live in the real world where not getting killed by some texting idiot is more important than making mysterious gestures which drivers can mirthfully decode and then dutifully obey.
Stick your hand out a foot into a lane you're not riding in, to hold back traffic (or whatever it is you're trying to do) and you're very likely to be needing a bandage for your hand.
I live in the real world where not getting killed by some texting idiot is more important than making mysterious gestures which drivers can mirthfully decode and then dutifully obey.
Stick your hand out a foot into a lane you're not riding in, to hold back traffic (or whatever it is you're trying to do) and you're very likely to be needing a bandage for your hand.
#224
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And a decade of which I commuted 10 miles from the suburbs to downtown Philly and back, except when it was snowing.
Sticking your hand out into a lane with a bunch of cellphone heads and text junkies racing against the next light? Good way to lose a hand.
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Hell, I use hand signals from time to time. I think the only difference between Bek and I is that I don't attribute any magical powers to doing so. I hope they get it, but don't expect them to...and I sure don't use them as some kind of lane positioning tool. But on a winding road where I can see what the driver behind me can't...or when signaling a turn for some poor schmuck who is patiently waiting for me to clear an intersection I ain't gonna pass thru, most motorists seem to appreciate it.
Hey Spikey, I still got my hands...yada, yada, warden!
Hey Spikey, I still got my hands...yada, yada, warden!
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"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey