Advertise on Bikeforums.net



User Tag List

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 53
  1. #1
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    San Francisco, CA
    My Bikes
    Custom Gunner 30-speed road bike with Campi parts; 1997 Bianchi Eros raised from the dead; Jamis road bike for city-bike replacement; 1990s-era Cannondale mountain bike
    Posts
    20
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Heedless, Entitled-seeming Hipster Cyclists in San Francisco - new phenomenon?

    Hey all...

    I'm sure some variant of this has been talked to death, but it's relatively new for me.

    I've lived in San Francisco for about 13 years, and cycled for many more than that. I can't say I'm the "perfect cycling citizen", but I'm pretty aware of my surroundings, at least slow down at stopsigns, stop at lights, give pedestrians right-of-way, am courteous, acknowledge other people on the road, etc.

    For the last couple of years, however, I've noticed a HUGE growth in the number of cyclists who seem heedless of their surroundings, TAKE right-of-way whether it's theirs or not, zig-zag through intersections without stopping even if there are peds or cars there already, using the street as a kind of personal expression space as they careen downhill in totally unpredictable trajectories, and basically act like they are the only people on the road.

    Most of those I see doing this I'd classify in the "hipster" or "fakenger" style - fixies/single-speeds, dickies, tattoos, etc. Not that there's anything wrong with that style, but it has seem to come with this kind of entitled attitude. I see this every day on my way to work and back (Haight/Ashbury neighborhood to downtown San Francisco). I also see it a lot on Valencia Street, which is, of course, Hipster Central.

    I can't believe the lack of concern for their surroundings most of these guys (and they are mostly guys, not too many women being this rude) show.

    Can anyone tell me what's changed in the last few years (besides the large growth in number of bikes on the streets, and prominence of bike advocacy) to make this happen? I mean, it's like the Keystone Cops On Bikes out there lately. As a cyclist, a pedestrian, and a driver, it's really starting to annoy me.

    - Tim
    Last edited by tbessie; 11-17-11 at 11:09 AM.

  2. #2
    I don't know. RB1-luvr's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Meriden, CT
    My Bikes
    '90 Bridgestone RB-1 , '89 SuperGo Access Comp, 2009 Access, 2010 Windsor Touring, 2014 Ritchey Road Logic, 2009 Kestrel Evoke SRAM Rival, 2003 Trek OCLV USPS livery, 1936 Westfield Seminole, 1946 Monark, '47 Western Flyer
    Posts
    1,034
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I think you nailed your answer in your title and your post. It's the Sense of Entitlement Generation.
    Rast ich so rost ich. (When I rest, I rust)

  3. #3
    Senior Member Seattle Forrest's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    9,866
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    No, whining and moaning about other people you don't like isn't a new phenomenon at all.
    Don't believe everything you think.

  4. #4
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    San Francisco, CA
    My Bikes
    Custom Gunner 30-speed road bike with Campi parts; 1997 Bianchi Eros raised from the dead; Jamis road bike for city-bike replacement; 1990s-era Cannondale mountain bike
    Posts
    20
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest View Post
    No, whining and moaning about other people you don't like isn't a new phenomenon at all.
    Eh, it's not merely "people I don't like". It's people who're putting other people in danger. Sure, I don't like it, but I don't like it for a very solid reason. It's not like I just don't like their clothes or something.

    Where're you coming from with your comment? You seem to have your own agenda there.

    - Tim

  5. #5
    ---- buzzman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Newton, MA
    Posts
    4,532
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I see people fitting that description all the time in NYC and sometimes in Boston. While I don't adopt that style of riding myself I'm actually pretty impressed at how seamlessly many of them "thread the needle". Is there any real evidence they are involved in accidents or cause accidents at any greater rate than other cyclists?

    Many traffic laws are designed for the flow of automotive traffic and have little to do with the flow and momentum of bicycle traffic. Sometimes that kind of rogue cycling may appear "selfish" but may have more to do with survival by instinct as opposed to following convention. I'm not advocating it but just suggesting there may be less of a need for a knee jerk blanket reaction that labels a group of individuals as "Heedless, Entitled-seeming Hipster Cyclists". It seems a little too easy a condemnation to make over an issue that is less black and white and actually has an underlying complexity.

  6. #6
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    San Francisco, CA
    My Bikes
    Custom Gunner 30-speed road bike with Campi parts; 1997 Bianchi Eros raised from the dead; Jamis road bike for city-bike replacement; 1990s-era Cannondale mountain bike
    Posts
    20
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by buzzman View Post
    I see people fitting that description all the time in NYC and sometimes in Boston. While I don't adopt that style of riding myself I'm actually pretty impressed at how seamlessly many of them "thread the needle". Is there any real evidence they are involved in accidents or cause accidents at any greater rate than other cyclists?
    This I cannot say - I have searched for some stats on riding style/attitude vs. accident rate, but I haven't found a credible, serious study on the matter. I'm definitely impressed by the skill of some of these folks, but I can tell that it often scares the pants off of many peds, drivers, and even other cyclists. Rather than just tell those that it scares to suck it up, I tend to believe that cyclists need to be a bit more predictable in their riding movements. But that's just me. :-)

    Many traffic laws are designed for the flow of automotive traffic and have little to do with the flow and momentum of bicycle traffic. Sometimes that kind of rogue cycling may appear "selfish" but may have more to do with survival by instinct as opposed to following convention. I'm not advocating it but just suggesting there may be less of a need for a knee jerk blanket reaction that labels a group of individuals as "Heedless, Entitled-seeming Hipster Cyclists". It seems a little too easy a condemnation to make over an issue that is less black and white and actually has an underlying complexity.
    Of course - I'd like to see cities planned out much better such that bike, ped and car traffic were much more clearly separated, with separate and logical laws that applied to each transit type; given that we can't redesign cities from the ground up (not anytime soon anyway), and that as of this moment cars, peds and cycles have to share the road to a great extent, being more predictable (whatever way you travel) would be better for everyone. That said, even now that San Francisco has added more bike-friendly accoutrements (green-painted bike lanes, bicycle "islands", more bike routes, etc.), I find that that hasn't improved the friendliness or civic-mindedness of many of the bad-mannered cyclists I encounter - if anything, they are more rude to fellow cyclists, almost shouldering them aside in the bike lanes as they make their squirrelly way down the street to get to where they're going as fast as possible.

    Yes, I admit the "heedless, entitled-seeming hipster cyclist" title may've come out too judgmental-sounding, but it was more to get attention to the discussion than to paint those people in a single color. Indeed, I know the cycling community is filled with many different sorts of people. It's the behavior I'm mentioning that I'm most peeved with (eg. car starts to move through intersection or ped starts to walk across crosswalk, and cyclist who was a half-block away a few seconds ago zooms through the intersection mere feet from the ped or car without even acknowledging them - that's bad manners whatever angle you come at it from). I can only say that I have noticed it most in people who appear to match the demographic and personal style that I mentioned, though I can't say why that is.

    - Tim

  7. #7
    You gonna eat that? Doohickie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Fort Worth, Texas Church of Hopeful Uncertainty
    My Bikes
    1966 Raleigh DL-1 Tourist, 1973 Schwinn Varsity, 1983 Raleigh Marathon, 1994 Nishiki Sport XRS
    Posts
    13,909
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Yeah, I see stuff like that. I blow it off. I'm not the world's policeman.
    I stop for people / whose right of way I honor / but not for no one.



    Originally Posted by bragi "However, it's never a good idea to overgeneralize."

  8. #8
    Senior Member Looigi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    6,993
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Check out the traffic in places like Ho Chi Minh City. Bikes, scooters, cars, trucks all ride/drive like that.

  9. #9
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    San Francisco, CA
    My Bikes
    Custom Gunner 30-speed road bike with Campi parts; 1997 Bianchi Eros raised from the dead; Jamis road bike for city-bike replacement; 1990s-era Cannondale mountain bike
    Posts
    20
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Looigi View Post
    Check out the traffic in places like Ho Chi Minh City. Bikes, scooters, cars, trucks all ride/drive like that.
    Heh, yes I can imagine - Bangkok and all the cities in India I visited were like that. Everyone was driving like mad.

    - Tim

  10. #10
    Icantre Member stonefree's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    the Bayou City perpetually under construction
    My Bikes
    2001 DBR Axis TT, 1998 Trek 5500 OCLV, 1993 Trek 1100, 1971 Raleigh Grand Prix, 1972 Gitane Attic Beater
    Posts
    384
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I saw one like that in the local park a few weeks ago zig zagging around on an old ghetto cruiser with his tires nearly flat. I was not wanting to look at him when I passed for fear that I would see his eyes rolling and his tongue hanging out. Just chalked it up to a form of madness that seems to be getting more common, like inflation or the price of gas going up, or maybe a new street drug.
    "If we don't change direction, we will end up exactly where we are headed."

  11. #11
    Fair Weather Cyclist Transformer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    SF Bay Area
    My Bikes
    R&M Frog, Moulton TSR
    Posts
    141
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    "Riding with panache" isn't new or exclusive to San Francisco. I think we just notice it more, because there are so many more bikes on the road than there were ten years ago. There are a lot more cyclists and some of them are idiots.

  12. #12
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Copenhagen
    My Bikes
    A load of ancient, old and semi-vintage bikes of divers sorts
    Posts
    1,827
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest View Post
    No, whining and moaning about other people you don't like isn't a new phenomenon at all.
    I hope you've got a good excuse.

  13. #13
    Warning:Annoying to jerks RaleighSport's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    STS
    My Bikes
    Leader 725, Centurion Turbo, Raleigh Team Technium, Schwinn Premis, GT Tequesta, Bridgestone CB-2
    Posts
    5,718
    Mentioned
    19 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Just keep them on your side of the Golden Gate please.
    “Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.”


    ― Ralph Waldo Emerson, Emerson in His Journals

  14. #14
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    A land that time forgot
    My Bikes
    the ever shifting stable loaded with comfortable road bikes and city and winter bikes
    Posts
    18,016
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I don't know, i think the OP may be seeing things more from the windshield than from the streets?


    When I ride in San Francisco, I have been increasingly impressed at the level of compliance with traffic signals of the riders I am with. Whenever I ride Market Street into Downtown or up to the Castro, i find most of my fellow cyclists stopping at the lights. Folsom into town in the mornings is the epitome of orderly cycling IMO.

    I'm also of the opinion that once a 'critical mass' of riders coalesces on the street, an high degree of 'obey the rules' behavior spontaneously erupts in the cyclists. Queuing at stoplights is indicative of order in the bicycling population.

    I don't think its that bad, and its getting better not worse. maybe the law breakers stand out more than the vast majority of riders, blending in with the rest of the traffic?

    Quote Originally Posted by transformer
    "Riding with panache" isn't new or exclusive to San Francisco.
    I ALWAYS ride with panache. i also predominately obey the rules of the road.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  15. #15
    24-Speed Machine Chris516's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Wash. Grove, MD
    My Bikes
    2003 Specialized Allez 24-Speed Road Bike
    Posts
    4,928
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Sounds like transplanted New Yorker's.

  16. #16
    24-Speed Machine Chris516's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Wash. Grove, MD
    My Bikes
    2003 Specialized Allez 24-Speed Road Bike
    Posts
    4,928
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Looigi View Post
    Check out the traffic in places like Ho Chi Minh City. Bikes, scooters, cars, trucks all ride/drive like that.
    Don't forget Beijing, Kuala Lumpur, Phnom Penn, and Taiwan R.O.C.

    Traffic in those cities/locales', is horrendous. It is like a giant game of dodge ball.

  17. #17
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Eugene, Oregon
    Posts
    4,606
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by tbessie View Post
    Eh, it's not merely "people I don't like". It's people who're putting other people in danger...

    - Tim
    Let's see, over 30,000 people killed by lawless motorists per year in the U.S. One's probability of being injured by scofflaw motorists over the course of an average lifetime are just about 50:50. JNow, just how many people have been killed by cyclists in the U.S. over the past century? A few less than 30,000, I would guess. Yet you are upset over scofflaw cyclists and are trying to pass it off as a concern over safety. Your claim seems insincere, to say the least.

  18. #18
    Senior Member silmarillion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Atlanta, Georgia
    My Bikes
    2012 Cinelli Mystic Rat, Nashbar CX
    Posts
    720
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I'llbedamned, and you would think that the cannabis cards would thin some of that riff-raff out.
    "Whenever you think you have something dummy-proof, someone builds a better idiot." - Wisdom overheard on the BF

  19. #19
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    San Francisco, CA
    My Bikes
    Custom Gunner 30-speed road bike with Campi parts; 1997 Bianchi Eros raised from the dead; Jamis road bike for city-bike replacement; 1990s-era Cannondale mountain bike
    Posts
    20
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    I don't know, i think the OP may be seeing things more from the windshield than from the streets?
    Not at all - I *do* drive, but I ride my bike a lot more than I drive... I'd say I walk or ride my bike or take public transport 80% of the time if not more. I avoid driving my car as much as possible. When I *do* drive, I'm more terrified of a cyclist weaving suddenly in front of me than I ever was in the past - might just be there's more bikes, but people seem to be riding less safely.

    I also get annoyed just as much when cycling - on the way home tonight, for example, I came to a 4-way stop, and there were cars and peds already there. I stopped, allowed for the whole "yield to the right" rule to take place as I crossed one corner, then the next, then pushed on. Meanwhile, a guy who was behind me slipped around me and went diagonally through the intersection despite the fact that cars and peds were about to enter it. This all on a dark, rainy, slippery evening.

    I had a momentary desire to catch up to him and push him off his neon-colored single-speed. :-/

    When I ride in San Francisco, I have been increasingly impressed at the level of compliance with traffic signals of the riders I am with. Whenever I ride Market Street into Downtown or up to the Castro, i find most of my fellow cyclists stopping at the lights. Folsom into town in the mornings is the epitome of orderly cycling IMO.

    I'm also of the opinion that once a 'critical mass' of riders coalesces on the street, an high degree of 'obey the rules' behavior spontaneously erupts in the cyclists. Queuing at stoplights is indicative of order in the bicycling population.

    I don't think its that bad, and its getting better not worse. maybe the law breakers stand out more than the vast majority of riders, blending in with the rest of the traffic?

    I ALWAYS ride with panache. i also predominately obey the rules of the road.
    Hmm, not sure what you mean *specifically* by "panache" - style, grace, skill?

    In any case, as some have said, perhaps it's just because there so many more cyclists on the road than there were that I notice the idiots, but the proportion of idiots really does seem to've increased in all the years I've been riding in the city somehow.

    Ah well.

    - Tim

  20. #20
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    San Francisco, CA
    My Bikes
    Custom Gunner 30-speed road bike with Campi parts; 1997 Bianchi Eros raised from the dead; Jamis road bike for city-bike replacement; 1990s-era Cannondale mountain bike
    Posts
    20
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by B. Carfree View Post
    Let's see, over 30,000 people killed by lawless motorists per year in the U.S. One's probability of being injured by scofflaw motorists over the course of an average lifetime are just about 50:50. JNow, just how many people have been killed by cyclists in the U.S. over the past century? A few less than 30,000, I would guess. Yet you are upset over scofflaw cyclists and are trying to pass it off as a concern over safety. Your claim seems insincere, to say the least.
    Just because I am bringing up the issue of bad manners and lack of concern for safety, etc. among cyclists doesn't mean I am not aware of the danger motorists present, or see lack of a need to address problems in that regard.

    However, that is another subject, and has nothing to do with the subject I started this thread with.

    What has my sincerity got to do with it? I'm certainly sincere in my statement and concerns.

    - Tim

  21. #21
    Senior Member gcottay's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Green Valley AZ
    My Bikes
    Trice Q; Volae Century; TT 3.4
    Posts
    3,772
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by tbessie View Post
    . . . .
    Can anyone tell me what's changed in the last few years (besides the large growth in number of bikes on the streets, and prominence of bike advocacy) to make this happen? I mean, it's like the Keystone Cops On Bikes out there lately. As a cyclist, a pedestrian, and a driver, it's really starting to annoy me.

    - Tim
    Maybe you are just a few years older.
    George
    Laissez les bon temps rouler

  22. #22
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    San Francisco, CA
    My Bikes
    Custom Gunner 30-speed road bike with Campi parts; 1997 Bianchi Eros raised from the dead; Jamis road bike for city-bike replacement; 1990s-era Cannondale mountain bike
    Posts
    20
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by gcottay View Post
    Maybe you are just a few years older.
    Heh - possibly. :-)

    I try to guard against the "Get off my lawn! Damn kids!" syndrome, though.

    - Tim

  23. #23
    ---- buzzman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Newton, MA
    Posts
    4,532
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by tbessie View Post
    Just because I am bringing up the issue of bad manners and lack of concern for safety, etc. among cyclists doesn't mean I am not aware of the danger motorists present, or see lack of a need to address problems in that regard.

    However, that is another subject, and has nothing to do with the subject I started this thread with...
    I don't think it's another subject. I actually think the two are related.

    Bicyclists are people on bikes. Drivers are people in cars. Pedestrians are people walking. Hmmm, anyone else see something in common between all of those groups. Why is it that when we see people do stupid things on bikes it's because they're "Heedless, Entitled, Seeming Hipster Cyclists", when it's people in cars doing something stupid they're "cagers". Come to NYC or any other busy city in the world and you want to see people do stupid things- watch the pedestrians!

    Or go to a supermarket and watch how people drive their shopping carts.

    Your observation has little to do with the means of conveyance. It has more to do with your perspective. It's all relative to the observer.

  24. #24
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Eugene, Oregon
    Posts
    4,606
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by tbessie View Post
    Just because I am bringing up the issue of bad manners and lack of concern for safety, etc. among cyclists doesn't mean I am not aware of the danger motorists present, or see lack of a need to address problems in that regard.

    However, that is another subject, and has nothing to do with the subject I started this thread with.

    What has my sincerity got to do with it? I'm certainly sincere in my statement and concerns.

    - Tim
    There is just no empirical evidence that they are endangering anyone, therefore your contention that safety is at issue rings rather hollow. You clearly consider yourself a cyclist. They cycle differently than you do. Does that threaten your view of yourself as a cyclist? Do you really think the box is that small?

    Sure, it would be nice if everyone played nice and by the rules. However, as long as no one is being physically hurt or threatened with harm, what is the big deal? Just for the record, I'm one of those strange cyclists who actually obeys all the traffic laws. I even come to complete stops at stop signs in the middle of nowhere. I still couldn't care less if other cyclists choose to do so as long as they don't harm anyone.

    Heck, after over four decades of using a bike as either my primary or only means of transportation I'm thrilled beyond belief to have so many youngsters eschewing the car and using bikes. I'd rather cheer them on and then laugh at them in a decade or two when they have their knickers in a twist over what the next generation of youngsters is doing.

  25. #25
    Senior Member squirtdad's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    San Jose (Willow Glen) Ca
    My Bikes
    '89 Miyata 1400, '82 nishiski (current utilty/commuter project)
    Posts
    3,214
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Empirical data: In SF last summer a cyclist hit ran a red light, hit a pedestrian who died a month later.. It was not clear that the cyclist was a pure hipster, but the bike appeared to be a fixie. It was very interesting in all of the day of video from the new stations you could see bike after biker running the same light. Mix of commuters and hipsters as best I can tell.

    Are Hipsters/Fixies inherently bad? No. My son 14, rides a fixie that we built...and knows how to ride in traffic, following rules. His fixie also has a brake.

    the problem is not a specirfic class/subclass of cyclists, but behavior and responsibility and a feeling of entitlement

    Cyclist are not entitled to run red lights. It is irresponsible
    Cylists are not entitled to ride withoutout brakes.....no matter what your "mad skills" are you do not have the control or the ability to handle many situations...resulting in more dangerous maneuvers.

    My observation of actual riders, is that as a current visible genre, many in the hipster/fixie crowd seem to feel entitled to do what they want....and be irresponsible. I see far more red light running, salmoning and just plan dumb behavior form this group (could be the teenage mind in many cases) Also as hipster/fixie is cool...there are many people riding who do not have the "mad skills" that reduce risk for all, but still ride as if they do.

    so be as hip and cool and ride the most rad fixie you can..... cool..... but don't take that a entitlement, follow traffic rules and if you are prepared to go down to avoid an accident...get a brake.
    '82 Nishiski commuter/utility
    '83 Torpado Super Strada ... cafe commuter
    '89 Miyata 1400
    Soma rush Fixie
    '78 Univega gran turismo (son's Fixie/SS)
    06 Haro x3 (son's bmx)
    Electra cruiser (wife's bike)

    looking for: De Rosa 58cm ELOS frame and fork internal cable routing

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •