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  1. #26
    24-Speed Machine Chris516's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unterhausen View Post
    victim was deaf. He probably didn't think the cop was trying to stop him
    Typical, I know it isn't the actual reason, but it smacks as another reason to use a stun *** on someone with a physical health problem.

  2. #27
    Senior Member shawmutt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris516 View Post
    Typical, I know it isn't the actual reason, but it smacks as another reason to use a stun *** on someone with a physical health problem.
    According to the article, a family member "said her brother was disabled, suffered from seizures and had trouble hearing". This does not read as "victim was deaf". Was he blind too? The article stated it was "Sunday night" and "[the officer] followed Anthony in his patrol car, briefly put on his sirens and lights and yelled out of the window for him to stop". The whole story isn't being told here.

    My favorite part is where the Mayor throws the cop under the bus. That's a great way to keep an effective police force.
    Last edited by shawmutt; 11-27-11 at 02:37 PM.
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  3. #28
    Nobody mconlonx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shawmutt View Post
    You are trying to arrange my argument to fit your agenda. Read the comments following the article in the OP. Read the OP title--use hyperbole much? It's nothing but a witch hunt.
    Nope, sorry, you don't get to accuse me of hyperbole and use the term "witch hunt" in the same quote without getting called a hypocrite: you are a hypocrite. Of course I'm using your argument to fit my agenda, just like you're using mine to fit yours. Unfortunately, you're looking more the fool here because your argument is unsound and mine is indisputably superior, supported by facts.

    Quote Originally Posted by shawmutt View Post
    Some of what is reported, just enough to make their site look legit.
    They quote news reports of police misconduct, not hearsay unsubstantiated rumors and/or stories, and since there's no mandate on the cop end to officially keep track of police misconduct, it is the most legit site out there. Prove differently.

    Again: what's reported on the site is only what makes the news. I'd say, "Tip of the iceberg? How much is not reported?" but that would definitely be dipping into personal opinion and hyperbole, vs. simply reporting what's out there for them what want to look.

    You really haven't researched the issue much, have you? Just winging it here, based on your unfounded personal beliefs, perhaps? Y'know, like you're accusing others of doing?
    I know next to nothing. I am frequently wrong.

  4. #29
    Nobody mconlonx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shawmutt View Post
    My favorite part is where the Mayor throws the cop under the bus. That's a great way to keep an effective police force.
    Or maybe, just maybe, in this case, the cop was actually in the wrong...
    I know next to nothing. I am frequently wrong.

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by shawmutt View Post
    Y



    Policy should be decided on facts, not cooked up blogs with an agenda. How many lives were saved by not using the previous "pre-tazer" level of force?
    It does not matter. Not one bit. If you give bullies another tool to wield their authority they will use it. I am against the use of tasers. This local yocal threatened to tase my nephew to communicate his authority. He did not realize, due to his amazing power of observation, that the 35 year old he was threatening was severely handicapped and had the cognitive abilities of a 2 year old. I'm not saying all cops are bad. I'm saying if you give a bully a tool to make bullying easier, they will use it.
    Last edited by Mr Danw; 11-27-11 at 03:53 PM.
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  6. #31
    Senior Member Digital_Cowboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shawmutt View Post
    Actually, my post has to do with the demonizing of an effective tool and the people who are authorized to use it. The OP, and the news story, has no real information--but a tazer was used so the cop must have been wrong. Posting all the alleged misconduct on a daily basis doesn't prove anything.
    Come on, you're not really trying to say that's it's a "good" idea to use a taser *** on a person who is riding a bicycle? I think that any reasonable person can see that as being a recipe for disaster.

    Also if I am not mistaken, in the case in Ohio shortly after Trotwood v Selz I believe that one of the two cyclists had also been tased by a LEO while riding his bicycle in a safe and legal manner. And that if I am not mistaken his helmet was damaged in the process. What would have happened to him if he hadn't been wearing a helmet?
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  7. #32
    Senior Member sggoodri's Avatar
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    Court to Cops: Stop Tasing People into Compliance

    Now a federal appeals court in San Francisco has set down new rules for when police officers are allowed to use Tasers. In particular, the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals ruled that Tasers canít be used simply to force a non-violent person to bend to an officerís will. The courtís reason was that Taserís X26 stun *** inflicts more pain than other ďnon-lethalĒ options:
    http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2010...orce-behavior/

  8. #33
    Nobody mconlonx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shawmutt View Post
    How many lives were saved by not using the previous "pre-tazer" level of force?
    ^^^ legit observation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Danw View Post
    It does not matter. Not one bit. If you give bullies another tool to wield their authority they will use it. I am against the use of tasers. This local yocal threatened to tase my nephew to communicate his authority. He did not realize, due to his amazing power of observation, that the 35 year old he was threatening was severely handicapped and had the cognitive abilities of a 2 year old. I'm not saying all cops are bad. I'm saying if you give a bully a tool to make bullying easier, they will use it.
    ^^^ Also legit, but, if anything, might even support s'mutt's contention. Would your nephew have been better off in a submission hold? Threatened or assaulted with a baton? Peppersprayed?

    Can't be worse than dead, but not seeing much of a possible better outcome if bike rider had been: tackled, baton-ed, or run down with the patrol car. <--All stuff that has also happened and resulted in injury or death.

    It's less about the taser, more as you say, the bullying. And lack of accountability.
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  9. #34
    Nobody mconlonx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Cowboy View Post
    What would have happened to him if he hadn't been wearing a helmet?
    Go away.
    I know next to nothing. I am frequently wrong.

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by mconlonx View Post
    ^^^ legit observation.



    ^^^ Also legit, but, if anything, might even support s'mutt's contention. Would your nephew have been better off in a submission hold? Threatened or assaulted with a baton? Peppersprayed?

    Can't be worse than dead, but not seeing much of a possible better outcome if bike rider had been: tackled, baton-ed, or run down with the patrol car. <--All stuff that has also happened and resulted in injury or death.

    It's less about the taser, more as you say, the bullying. And lack of accountability.
    A submission hold would be more effective since a taser would likely kill him because of his cardiac and respiratory conditions.

    I figure a big problem is that cops are spread pretty thin and now ride one per car. It is cheaper and easier to tase than send back up.
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  11. #36
    Dirt junkie. SnowJob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Danw View Post
    A submission hold would be more effective since a taser would likely kill him because of his cardiac and respiratory conditions.

    I figure a big problem is that cops are spread pretty thin and now ride one per car. It is cheaper and easier to tase than send back up.
    I think the cheaper and easier statement is true when it comes to the use of tasers. I've seen cops tase a person who was not being violent--she just refused to get out of her car during a traffic stop and she was being verbally abusive. Prior to tasers I imagine the cops would have been forced to either to continue to talk to her or manhandle her out of the vehicle. Now that they have tasers, which they are told are "non-lethal" they can just use it rather than, as they may see it, wasting time with talking.

    On the whole, as others have mentioned here, tasers can be lethal to people with certain health problems such as heart conditions. It's not smart policy to refer to them as "non-lethal" weapons.. perhaps "less-lethal" is more apt (although it will never fly because the Taser corporation has done such a good job of branding their weapon as a safe alternative to firearms).

    Anyway, this cop is certainly in the wrong. The cyclist was not being violent and cops are supposedly trained to use a level of force that is just enough to end violent situations. Since this scenario was not violent, the cop should not have had to resort to any force.

  12. #37
    Senior Member shawmutt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mconlonx View Post
    Or maybe, just maybe, in this case, the cop was actually in the wrong...
    Yes, that may be. Cops can and do abuse their power. This may be a case of that, and hopefully the investigation will come to the right conclusion. However, I see this knee-jerk response every time it comes up. The news article with few facts, but--cop tazed person, cop evil. The mayor is not helping things by making a pronouncement before the full investigation took place--he just threw the city employee under the bus. The mayor actually said he hopes the family sues.

    I did a Google search on the officer's name to see if there was more info, and came up with this brief article: http://www.witn.com/home/headlines/134378973.html 298 comments follow showing some pretty absurd assumptions on both sides. Perhaps "witch hunt" was a bit extreme of a term, but the knee-jerk reactions are telling.

    Again: what's reported on the site is only what makes the news. I'd say, "Tip of the iceberg? How much is not reported?" but that would definitely be dipping into personal opinion and hyperbole, vs. simply reporting what's out there for them what want to look.
    It's really a glass half-full vs half-empty argument. I see it as evidence that the system is working. Just about every death caused by police in this country is reported, stats can be gathered, improvements can be made. Compare that to a police force in Mexico or Iraq or etc. where in order to even move through the country you better have enough money to bribe the cops. Our police force isn't perfect, but it's pretty damn good.

    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Cowboy
    Come on, you're not really trying to say that's it's a "good" idea to use a taser *** on a person who is riding a bicycle? I think that any reasonable person can see that as being a recipe for disaster.
    We don't know the circumstances. All we know from the article is that the dude was falling off his bike and ignoring repeated requests to stop moving. Any reasonable person would not jump to assumptions about the circumstances.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Danw
    I am against the use of tasers.
    So what level of force are you for? The cop has to at least stop this guy to question him and make sure he is fit to ride--what SOP would you follow?

    Speaking of bullies and use of force, I need to get ready to join the orange army and shoot Bambi tomorrow. I'll need to drop this for tonight and get back into it tomorrow if I have a chance.
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  13. #38
    Senior Member Digital_Cowboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mconlonx View Post
    Go away.
    Why, are you so anti-helmet that you can't admit that it probably saved the cyclist considerable injury if not possibly his life?

    It's right there on page 6 of the article "When the Cop Says Stop."
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  14. #39
    Senior Member Digital_Cowboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shawmutt View Post
    Yes, that may be. Cops can and do abuse their power. This may be a case of that, and hopefully the investigation will come to the right conclusion. However, I see this knee-jerk response every time it comes up. The news article with few facts, but--cop tazed person, cop evil. The mayor is not helping things by making a pronouncement before the full investigation took place--he just threw the city employee under the bus. The mayor actually said he hopes the family sues.

    I did a Google search on the officer's name to see if there was more info, and came up with this brief article: http://www.witn.com/home/headlines/134378973.html 298 comments follow showing some pretty absurd assumptions on both sides. Perhaps "witch hunt" was a bit extreme of a term, but the knee-jerk reactions are telling.



    It's really a glass half-full vs half-empty argument. I see it as evidence that the system is working. Just about every death caused by police in this country is reported, stats can be gathered, improvements can be made. Compare that to a police force in Mexico or Iraq or etc. where in order to even move through the country you better have enough money to bribe the cops. Our police force isn't perfect, but it's pretty damn good.



    We don't know the circumstances. All we know from the article is that the dude was falling off his bike and ignoring repeated requests to stop moving. Any reasonable person would not jump to assumptions about the circumstances.
    From the article I read he fell once in a parking lot of a bank. A third party called the police and reported it as a possible drunk. So other then possibly being drunk in public and maybe trespassing for being in the parking lot after business hours. What crime had he actually committed?

    A month or so ago my front wheel hit a patch of loose sand or gravel and I went down. Does that mean that I committed some sort of crime that required police intervention?

    Given that according to the deceased's family he was hard of hearing as well as suffered from seizures it is reasonable to presume that he fell because he suffered a seizure, not because he was drunk.

    Again given that the man is/was hard of hearing (you do know that there are people who cannot hear certain frequencies, right?) he may not have heard the siren. He may or may not have seen the lights, but not being able to hear the siren he reasonably may have presumed that the lights were not meant for him.

    The next thing he knows he's being hit by a taser. And falls to the ground and is injured.

    Wouldn't it have been more prudent as others have suggested for the new on the force officer to pull in front of the cyclist and stop to get his attention? And again given that this officer was on the job for about a month where was his training officer?

    And again what did the officer think was going to happen when he hit a person who was on a bicycle? We do not know how fast the cyclist in question was traveling. I think that most here are capable of maintaining a speed in the high teens to low 20's without much effort. What do you think would happen if a cop thinking that they've committed some "horrendous" crime such as suffering from a medical condition that caused them to fall. Followed by them taking their anti-seizure meds, then pulling out their taser and tasing them while they're riding at 20+MPHs?

    Isn't it reasonable to presume that they're going to hit the ground and hit the ground hard? Resulting in injury? And possibly death?

    Quote Originally Posted by shawmutt View Post
    So what level of force are you for? The cop has to at least stop this guy to question him and make sure he is fit to ride--what SOP would you follow?

    Speaking of bullies and use of force, I need to get ready to join the orange army and shoot Bambi tomorrow. I'll need to drop this for tonight and get back into it tomorrow if I have a chance.
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  15. #40
    Senior Member shawmutt's Avatar
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    The next thing he knows he's being hit by a taser. And falls to the ground and is injured.
    This is conjecture.

    We do not know how fast the cyclist in question was traveling.
    You're right, we don't.
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  16. #41
    Senior Member Digital_Cowboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shawmutt View Post
    This is conjecture.
    Really? In the incident that I related above I wasn't traveling very fast and when I hit the driveway I skinned my knee pretty good. And that's just me traveling at probably about 10MPH or so. What do you think would happen if a person who is pretty much just minding their own business while riding a bike get's hit by a taser?

    Hint, read the article that I linked to above. In which a cyclist who was already stopped and off of his bike was tased and hit the ground hard enough to break his helmet.

    Quote Originally Posted by shawmutt View Post
    You're right, we don't.
    It is reasonable to presume though that he was traveling faster then walking speed. And given that the cyclist in the article that I linked above was tased while already off of his bike and hit the ground hard enough to break/damage his helmet what do you think is going to happen to someone who is tased while actually riding their bicycle?
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  17. #42
    Senior Member chrisb71's Avatar
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    Actually it's not cycling it's being ill that's illegal. There are tons of similar stories of people who had some illness that caused shaking, had Down's syndrome, or hard of hearing, that enraged a cop into tasering them, beating them, and sometimes killing them. Even if the person is well known in the community for being "slow" and everyone looks out for him, as in this case.

    And it's not just the US, you can find similar news stories in even civilized countries all over the world. tasers are a big enough problem, but the problem with how police treat the mentally ill, or people with diabetes, cerebral palsy, parkinsons, deaf, etc, has been around far longer.
    Last edited by chrisb71; 11-28-11 at 11:50 AM.

  18. #43
    Senior Member Digital_Cowboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisb71 View Post
    Actually it's not cycling it's being ill that's illegal. There are tons of similar stories of people who had some illness that caused shaking, had Down's syndrome, or hard of hearing, that enraged a cop into tasering them, beating them, and sometimes killing them. Even if the person is well known in the community for being "slow" and everyone looks out for him, as in this case.

    And it's not just the US, you can find similar news stories in even civilized countries all over the world. tasers are a big enough problem, but the problem with how police treat the mentally ill, or people with diabetes, cerebral palsy, parkinsons, deaf, etc, has been around far longer.
    Agreed, sadly we see this in the Cuba Gooding, Jr. movie Radio. Cuba plays a developmentally challenged man. Who the whole town turned out to give him Christmas presents. He turns around and decides to give them to others. A cop who was new to town and who didn't know "Radio" tries to pull him over (he was pushing a shopping cart down the street) to see where he got the stuff from and not getting an answer that he likes arrests "Radio."

    The irony is that when the other officers come back to the station and see who the "rookie" has arrested they let him out of the cell and feed him and let him watch TV until the High School football coach can come and pick him up. The "rookie" is then assigned to help "Radio" to finish distributing his presents to the townspeople.

    LEOs need to learn/realize that just because a person is not responding to them it does not mean that the person is doing anything wrong. They may be deaf/hard of hearing, have Downs Syndrome, be Autistic, or what have you. And that they should only use force of any sort as a last resort.
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  19. #44
    Senior Member shawmutt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Cowboy
    What do you think would happen if a person who is pretty much just minding their own business while riding a bike get's hit by a taser?
    Where in the article does it say this?

    Quote Originally Posted by chrisb71
    Even if the person is well known in the community for being "slow" and everyone looks out for him, as in this case.
    More guessing games--where in the article does it say this?
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  20. #45
    Senior Member Seattle Forrest's Avatar
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    Anyone who actually believes cycling is a capitol offense needs to turn the computer off and go outside in the real world.
    Don't believe everything you think.

  21. #46
    Senior Member shawmutt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Cowboy View Post
    Agreed, sadly we see this in the Cuba Gooding, Jr. movie Radio...
    What is this, Northern Exposure?
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  22. #47
    Senior Member mikeybikes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chicago Al View Post
    I'm going to take a wild guess (but no wilder than suggesting the cyclist was killed because he was on a bike): a big part of the offense was CWB, a variant on DWB.
    Quote Originally Posted by DX-MAN View Post
    CWB, for sure.
    Is there any evidence this is racially motivated?
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  23. #48
    Nobody mconlonx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Cowboy View Post
    Why, are you so anti-helmet that you can't admit that it probably saved the cyclist considerable injury if not possibly his life?
    I am vehemently not anti-helmet, but thanks for the assumption. I do, however recognize the correct thread for a debate or even commentary on helmet use and effectiveness, and it's most definitely not this thread.

    Unless you're saying a helmet would have helped the tazed dead guy...?

    You know how contentious the helmet debate is, it has nothing to do with this thread, yet you insist on inserting it into this discussion?!?

    What's the matter with you...?

    Take your helmet trolling someplace else, it has no place here.
    I know next to nothing. I am frequently wrong.

  24. #49
    Senior Member EsoxLucius's Avatar
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    Do all trolls use drunkard, anti-semite, woman beaters for their avatar? Just wondering...

  25. #50
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    I thought tasers were supposed to be a non-lethal means of either self defense or defense of an innocent victim. No one was in danger here, so the use of a taser was innapropriate. The bicycle in this case is irrelevent (although how could anyone think tasing someone on a moving vehicle of any kind would wind up good?).
    "There are many causes worth dying for. There are none worth killing for." Albert Camus

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