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Old 11-28-11, 06:34 PM   #51
Digital_Cowboy
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Originally Posted by mconlonx View Post
I am vehemently not anti-helmet, but thanks for the assumption. I do, however recognize the correct thread for a debate or even commentary on helmet use and effectiveness, and it's most definitely not this thread.
The article that I included the link to was not too dissimilar to the incident in the article in the OP. Two cyclists minding their own business confronted with by a LEO who wanted them to pull over. In that article the LEO in question not only tased one of the cyclists but had also called for backup and if I remember correctly the officers that responded to the call for backup along with the original LEO proceeded to beat the snot out of the tased cyclist. Had he not been wearing a helmet things probably would have ended very differently for him.

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Originally Posted by mconlonx View Post
Unless you're saying a helmet would have helped the tazed dead guy...?
It may have, we'll never know.

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You know how contentious the helmet debate is, it has nothing to do with this thread, yet you insist on inserting it into this discussion?!?
I wasn't trying to turn it into yet another helmet debate. Just pointing out that in a similar incident where a LEO tased a cyclist that a helmet had saved him from serious injury.

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What's the matter with you...?
What's the matter with you, if you can't see the similarities in the two cases and that in the first (not in order of being posted in this thread but chronological order) that a helmet probably saved a cyclist from serious injury, if not maybe death?

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Take your helmet trolling someplace else, it has no place here.
How was I engaging in helmet "trolling?"
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Old 11-28-11, 06:46 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Hippiebrian View Post
I thought tasers were supposed to be a non-lethal means of either self defense or defense of an innocent victim. No one was in danger here, so the use of a taser was inappropriate. The bicycle in this case is irrelevant (although how could anyone think tasing someone on a moving vehicle of any kind would wind up good?).
I agree, as that has always been my impression of them as well. And given some of the close calls that I've had with a couple of drivers who wanted to fight over their perception of me not being in a "bike lane" I still want to carry one of the models that fire the probes instead of the one that you have to get "up close and personal" to tase them.

Again, I agree. In this case we had a lone cyclist who was observed by someone who assumed that he was drunk simply for falling off of his bike. And who in turned called the cops. A rookie only on the job one month is dispatched apparently without a training officer to the scene. Who upon not getting the desired response decides that it's a "smart" idea to tase said cyclist. What did he really expect to be the result of tasing someone on a moving vehicle?

Would he have tased someone who was riding a motorcycle or scooter, or moped or a horse? Or even driving a car?

Some here have chastised the Mayor for "throwing the rookie cop under the bus." If this is an example of that rookie's training do we really want him to remain on the force? Do we really want the Mayor to defend his actions?
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Old 11-28-11, 07:06 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Digital_Cowboy View Post
Some here have chastised the Mayor for "throwing the rookie cop under the bus." If this is an example of that rookie's training do we really want him to remain on the force? Do we really want the Mayor to defend his actions?
Evidently it's too much to ask people to wait for the evidence before making proclamations of, let's see...abuse of power, racism, killer cops, poor old deaf men getting picked on, itchy trigger fingers...and all that just from this thread! The vitriol I witnessed on the news websites is astounding--so much information gleaned from a tiny article!

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Do all trolls use drunkard, anti-semite, woman beaters for their avatar? Just wondering...
Good for you sparky--if you can attack the arguer you can ignore the argument! It's my take on the Guy Fawkes™ sheeple mask--but that's for another forum.
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Old 11-28-11, 07:54 PM   #54
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According to the article, a family member "said her brother was disabled, suffered from seizures and had trouble hearing". This does not read as "victim was deaf". Was he blind too? The article stated it was "Sunday night" and "[the officer] followed Anthony in his patrol car, briefly put on his sirens and lights and yelled out of the window for him to stop". The whole story isn't being told here.

My favorite part is where the Mayor throws the cop under the bus. That's a great way to keep an effective police force.
While the sister only said that he had trouble hearing, do you really think she would have mentioned that at all, if it was due to his own behavior before the fact? For instance religiously attending every WHO concert(they are in the Guinness Book of World Records for the loudest concert at 120 decibels) and being in the front row every time.....I don't think so.
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Old 11-28-11, 08:25 PM   #55
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Police officers, being human, are not immune to the stupidity which infects the rest of the human race.

BTW, partial deafness presents a fairly unique set of issues for the partially deaf, very poorly understood by the hearing public. I should know, I 've been missing over half my hearing since birth.

Sounds like very poor policing.
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Old 11-28-11, 08:35 PM   #56
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While the sister only said that he had trouble hearing, do you really think she would have mentioned that at all, if it was due to his own behavior before the fact? For instance religiously attending every WHO concert(they are in the Guinness Book of World Records for the loudest concert at 120 decibels) and being in the front row every time.....I don't think so.
I can be blasting my Sinatra with the windows rolled up, tinnitus and all, and still see lights flashing and at least give a glance to see what's going on. There are important details being left out of the local news story. Maybe the guy was blind too.
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Old 11-28-11, 08:58 PM   #57
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It's my take on the Guy Fawkes™ sheeple mask--but that's for another forum.
Ooh, sheeple reference. That's an automatic win.

Sorry folks, that rule is in Robert's Rules of Order and Forum Spamming v.6.66.

By the authority vested in me by the World Wide Web Consortium, Shawmutt is declared winner. The ruling declares we shall furthermore refrain from criticizing any and all law enforcement officers (including private security and TSA) who use excessive force upon elderly and/or disabled citizens.

That is all.
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Old 11-28-11, 09:29 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by shawmutt View Post
Evidently it's too much to ask people to wait for the evidence before making proclamations of, let's see...abuse of power, racism, killer cops, poor old deaf men getting picked on, itchy trigger fingers...and all that just from this thread! The vitriol I witnessed on the news websites is astounding--so much information gleaned from a tiny article!
Given the resulting backlash, don't you think that this rookie officer at the very least should be temporarily suspended? As he took a situation that clearly was not violent and turned it into one with a fatality. And what do you call using a taser on a person who is riding a bicycle? Again I think that any reasonable person with "half an ounce of common sense" would see it for "the recipe for disaster" that it turned out to be.

Think about it like this, how would you feel if it had been your father, brother, uncle, cousin or son who ended up dead after being tased by a cop? Would you be so forgiving and understanding of the rookie cop?

And again I have to ask given that this cop was only on the job for about a month where the bloody hell was his training officer?

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Good for you sparky--if you can attack the arguer you can ignore the argument! It's my take on the Guy Fawkes™ sheeple mask--but that's for another forum.
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Old 11-28-11, 09:42 PM   #59
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While the sister only said that he had trouble hearing, do you really think she would have mentioned that at all, if it was due to his own behavior before the fact? For instance religiously attending every WHO concert(they are in the Guinness Book of World Records for the loudest concert at 120 decibels) and being in the front row every time.....I don't think so.
Agreed, hearing loss can and does take all forms. There are people who have either lost the ability or was born not being able to hear sounds emitted at certain frequencies. And given that, it is reasonable to presume that even if a person is not totally deaf that they will not be able to hear either a car coming up behind them OR be able to hear a police siren.

And given the individual's lack of reaction to even the officer's yelling out his window at him it is safe to presume that his hearing loss was more profound then even that. So again I'd like to know what that rookie cop was thinking when he tased a person on a bicycle. Particularly a person that it had already been reported had fallen at least once.

Given that it'd been reported to presumably the 911 operator that the cyclist had fallen does it not follow that tasing him is not a smart idea?
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Old 11-28-11, 09:44 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Poguemahone View Post
Police officers, being human, are not immune to the stupidity which infects the rest of the human race.

BTW, partial deafness presents a fairly unique set of issues for the partially deaf, very poorly understood by the hearing public. I should know, I 've been missing over half my hearing since birth.

Sounds like very poor policing.
Which comes back to my question of where was this rookie officers training officer?
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Old 11-28-11, 09:55 PM   #61
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I can be blasting my Sinatra with the windows rolled up, tinnitus and all, and still see lights flashing and at least give a glance to see what's going on. There are important details being left out of the local news story. Maybe the guy was blind too.
Given that he was riding a bicycle it is safe to presume that he wasn't fully blind. He may have been legally blind, he may have been colorblind. IF he WAS colorblind it is possible that all he saw was flashing lights and not the actual color of said lights. And given the number of cyclists who are riding with headlights that are set to flash/blink it is possible that is thought that he was being "followed" by another cyclist.

Also given that he is now dead, we have no way of finding out what he was thinking as the rookie officer was pulling up behind him.

And again, I ask, given that as I've said that about a month ago (give or take) while pulling out of the parking lot of a local shopping center my front wheel hit a patch of either loose sand or gravel and I went down. Does that mean that anyone who saw me fall should have called 911 and reported a "drunk" person having just fallen?

Also given that at the most the person was "guilty" of two presumably misdemeanor crimes (if he had been drunk) but actually possibly on one i.e. trespassing for being in the parking lot after hours. Does that really warrant his being tased?

Or what if the individual was unable to talk? You do know that "even in this day and age" that there are people who are "deaf and dumb."

This whole thing could have been avoided if the rookie cop had pulled his cruiser in front of the cyclist and stopped. As that would have gotten his attention without causing any injury or potential loss of life.
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Old 11-28-11, 10:39 PM   #62
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Even IF he heard the cop and even IF he saw the lights, that is still no reason for the officer to tase him.
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Old 11-28-11, 11:16 PM   #63
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Even IF he heard the cop and even IF he saw the lights, that is still no reason for the officer to tase him.
Agreed, as as he was not a danger to either himself or to anyone else. What was the rookie's reasoning for tasing the cyclist?

All he was really guilty of was not responding to the officers siren and lights or his yelling out of his window.

Given that he was hard of hearing what law did he break or crime did he commit?
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Old 11-29-11, 02:47 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by shawmutt View Post
I can be blasting my Sinatra with the windows rolled up, tinnitus and all, and still see lights flashing and at least give a glance to see what's going on. There are important details being left out of the local news story. Maybe the guy was blind too.
He may have been deemed blind(if he was), as to state DMV requirements for a driver's license. But if there is a hearing test for a driver's license, I have never heard of, or seen, one at the DMV.
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Old 11-29-11, 02:58 AM   #65
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Even IF he heard the cop and even IF he saw the lights, that is still no reason for the officer to tase him.
+1000000

You need to repeat this repeatedly!! Someone around here wasn't listening!!!!

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Old 11-29-11, 03:11 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by Digital_Cowboy View Post
Given that he was riding a bicycle it is safe to presume that he wasn't fully blind. He may have been legally blind, he may have been colorblind. IF he WAS colorblind it is possible that all he saw was flashing lights and not the actual color of said lights. And given the number of cyclists who are riding with headlights that are set to flash/blink it is possible that is thought that he was being "followed" by another cyclist.
Bingo!!!

My father is colorblind and whenever I see him, he will ask me what color something is, when he is focusing on something. My father will get green n' yellow mixed when the color's purpose is not obvious i.e. traffic lights are obvious because info regarding the placement of the green, yellow and red lights' respective positions in a traffic signal.
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Old 11-29-11, 03:49 AM   #67
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Or maybe, just maybe, in this case, the cop was actually in the wrong...
Agreed. The police often abuse their authority and get away with it, this is just one case of them getting caught.

To all, the whole system of police is ineffective once the ego is factored in. Most, not all, officers get jollies off of being protected by a badge. I hate police, I hate the feeling of panic/paranoia/fear that I get around police, and I hate the fact that another human has the power to put me in a cage if that person feels fit.
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Old 11-29-11, 03:51 AM   #68
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But, OP - You should change the title of this thread, there is enough disinformation in the world.
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Old 11-29-11, 07:19 AM   #69
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Let me give you a little background on myself. I am a retired federal LEO and have also worked as a reserve sheriff's deputy. I have attended two LE academies. I have trained and trained with a myriad of federal, state and local agencies. All departments have use of force policies. They are all materially indifferent. Some of the language changes a little, but substantially they are similar. Below I have copied and pasted a relevant portions of Denver's use of force policy. I'd bet my life that the Scotland Neck NC use of force policy is basically the same. I made some highlights for those of us that are a bit ADD.

One thing that is not taught well in formal LEO training is that immediate action isn't always necessary. Officers are taught that they must control the situation. I learned that in certain circumstances quiet observation was the best way to control the situation. I learned and employed deescalation techniques. In some ways I feel badly for the young officer as I feel certain he wasn't taught alternative control techniques, but on the other hand intimate familiarity with his agency's use of force policy topped with a dollop of common sense would have prevented this tragic outcome.

For the idiot that first carted out the race card...you are an idiot. That you did so with so little information is a sad reflection on your character and mindset.

b. Types of Resistance
1. Psychological Intimidation - Non-verbal cues in attitude, appearance, demeanor or
posture that indicates an unwillingness to cooperate or a threat.
2. Verbal Non-Compliance - Verbal responses indicating an unwillingness to comply with
officer's directions or threat to injure a person.
3. Passive Resistance - Physical actions that do not prevent the officer's attempt to control,
for example, a person who remains in a limp or prone position.
4. Defensive Resistance - Physical actions that attempt to prevent officer's control including
flight or attempt to flee, but do not involve attempts to harm the officer.
5. Active Aggression - A threat or overt act of an assault, coupled with the present ability to
carry out the threat or assault, which reasonably indicates that an assault or injury to any
person is imminent.
6. Aggravated Active Aggression - Deadly force encounter.
7. Psychological Intimidation, Verbal Non-Compliance and Passive Resistance usually do
not involve conduct sufficient to support criminal charges related to resistance.

b. Acceptable uses of the ERD/TASER include:
1. To incapacitate a combative or physically resistive person; whose conduct rises
at least to the level of Active Aggression. The purpose is to neutralize the
person to the point they can be safely controlled and taken into custody. This
use of force option becomes necessary when other force options would be
inappropriate or ineffective under the circumstances. (Active Aggression: A
threat or overt act of an assault, coupled with the present ability to carry out the
threat or assault, which reasonably indicates that an assault or injury to any


person is
imminent.), OR
2. In situations when its use is likely to prevent an officer or a third person from
serious bodily injury, OR
3. To incapacitate a suicidal person who can’t be safely controlled with other force

options.


Last edited by Paul Barnard; 11-29-11 at 08:05 AM.
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Old 11-29-11, 07:22 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hippiebrian View Post
I thought tasers were supposed to be a non-lethal means of either self defense or defense of an innocent victim. No one was in danger here, so the use of a taser was innapropriate. The bicycle in this case is irrelevent (although how could anyone think tasing someone on a moving vehicle of any kind would wind up good?).
The term used now for such weapons is "less-lethal." Because it turns out to be lethal, just not as much as others.
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Old 11-29-11, 07:38 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by Digital_Cowboy View Post
Had he not been wearing a helmet things probably would have ended very differently for him.

It may have, we'll never know.

I wasn't trying to turn it into yet another helmet debate. ...a helmet had saved him from serious injury.

...a helmet probably saved a cyclist from serious injury, if not maybe death?

How was I engaging in helmet "trolling?"
srsly...?

Helmet use has what to do with the OP? You could easily have quoted the article to make a point regarding this recent killing, but there was actually no need--because there was absolutely no relevance to the OP--to bring up your personal views on helmet use.

So why do it?

Because you're trolling. Take your helmet issues and go away. There's a stickied thread at the top of A&S specifically for helmet discussions. Suggest you post there instead of trolling here.
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Old 11-29-11, 07:58 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by Paul Barnard View Post

Let me give you a little background on myself. I am a retired federal LEO and have also worked as a reserve Sheriff's deputy. I have attended two LE academies. I have trained and trained with a myriad of federal state and local agencies. All depeartments have use of force policies. They are all materially indifferent. Some of the language changes a little, but substantially they are similar. Below I have copied and pasted a relevant portions of Denver's use of force policy. I'd bet my life that the Scotland Neck NC use of force policy is basically the same. I made some highlights for those of us that are a bit ADD. One thing that is not taught well in formal LEO training is that immediate action isn't always necessary. Officers are taught that they must control the situation. I learned that in certain circumstances quiet observation was the best way to control the situation. I learned and employed deescalation techniques. In some ways I feel badly for the young officer as I feel certain he wasn't taught alternative control techniques, but on the other hand intimate familiarity with his agency's use of force policy topped with a dollop of common sense would have prevented this tragic outcome.

For the idiot that first carted out the race card...you are an idiot. That you did so with so little information is a sad reflection on your character and mindset.

b. Types of Resistance
1. Psychological Intimidation - Non-verbal cues in attitude, appearance, demeanor or
posture that indicates an unwillingness to cooperate or a threat.
2. Verbal Non-Compliance - Verbal responses indicating an unwillingness to comply with
officer's directions or threat to injure a person.
3. Passive Resistance - Physical actions that do not prevent the officer's attempt to control,
for example, a person who remains in a limp or prone position.
4. Defensive Resistance - Physical actions that attempt to prevent officer's control including
flight or attempt to flee, but do not involve attempts to harm the officer.
5. Active Aggression - A threat or overt act of an assault, coupled with the present ability to
carry out the threat or assault, which reasonably indicates that an assault or injury to any
person is imminent.
6. Aggravated Active Aggression - Deadly force encounter.
7. Psychological Intimidation, Verbal Non-Compliance and Passive Resistance usually do
not involve conduct sufficient to support criminal charges related to resistance.

b. Acceptable uses of the ERD/TASER include:
1. To incapacitate a combative or physically resistive person; whose conduct rises
at least to the level of Active Aggression. The purpose is to neutralize the
person to the point they can be safely controlled and taken into custody. This
use of force option becomes necessary when other force options would be
inappropriate or ineffective under the circumstances. (Active Aggression: A
threat or overt act of an assault, coupled with the present ability to carry out the
threat or assault, which reasonably indicates that an assault or injury to any
person is
imminent.), OR

2. In situations when its use is likely to prevent an officer or a third person from
serious bodily injury, OR
3. To incapacitate a suicidal person who can’t be safely controlled with other force
options.
Thanks for that. By those definitions, it was definatelly not necessary, and a tragic loss.
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Old 11-29-11, 12:44 PM   #73
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In some ways I feel badly for the young officer as I feel certain he wasn't taught alternative control techniques, but on the other hand intimate familiarity with his agency's use of force policy topped with a dollop of common sense would have prevented this tragic outcome.
I agree, and I think it's also possible that the inexperienced officer may have had a run of bad experiences with drug couriers on bikes that may have adversely affected his perception of the threat posed by the bicyclist. Many departments here in NC, like other states, regularly stop people for bicycling infractions as a pretext for investigation related to drug activity. Less than a year ago, just 20 miles away, a bicyclist in Weldon NC shot at two officers who were attempting to stop him:

http://www.wral.com/news/news_briefs/story/8864682/

Quote:
Weldon, N.C. — A Weldon man is accused of shooting at two police officers who stopped him for riding a bike without lights Friday evening.

Chief Mark Macon told the Daily Herald of Roanoke Rapids that Michael Bernard Ponton, 51, tried to run from officers but they quickly caught up with him.

As they were trying to handcuff Ponton, he slipped on some ice, and a gun fell from his pocket. Macon said the suspect grabbed the gun and fired a shot that missed. The officers got the gun from the man's hand.
Both stops happened near the I-95 corridor, a major drug traffic route. While most of us reading this list may think of bicyclists as harmless, an inexperienced law enforcement officer who had mostly negative experiences where bicyclist enforcement has targeted drug crimes and resulted in a recent past shooting might end up trigger happy as a result, with tragic consequences.

Last edited by sggoodri; 11-29-11 at 12:55 PM.
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Old 11-29-11, 12:53 PM   #74
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Let me give you a little background on myself. I am a retired federal LEO and have also worked as a reserve sheriff's deputy. I have attended two LE academies. I have trained and trained with a myriad of federal, state and local agencies. All departments have use of force policies. They are all materially indifferent. Some of the language changes a little, but substantially they are similar. Below I have copied and pasted a relevant portions of Denver's use of force policy. I'd bet my life that the Scotland Neck NC use of force policy is basically the same. I made some highlights for those of us that are a bit ADD.

One thing that is not taught well in formal LEO training is that immediate action isn't always necessary. Officers are taught that they must control the situation. I learned that in certain circumstances quiet observation was the best way to control the situation. I learned and employed deescalation techniques. In some ways I feel badly for the young officer as I feel certain he wasn't taught alternative control techniques, but on the other hand intimate familiarity with his agency's use of force policy topped with a dollop of common sense would have prevented this tragic outcome.

For the idiot that first carted out the race card...you are an idiot. That you did so with so little information is a sad reflection on your character and mindset.

b. Types of Resistance
1. Psychological Intimidation - Non-verbal cues in attitude, appearance, demeanor or
posture that indicates an unwillingness to cooperate or a threat.
2. Verbal Non-Compliance - Verbal responses indicating an unwillingness to comply with
officer's directions or threat to injure a person.
3. Passive Resistance - Physical actions that do not prevent the officer's attempt to control,
for example, a person who remains in a limp or prone position.
4. Defensive Resistance - Physical actions that attempt to prevent officer's control including
flight or attempt to flee, but do not involve attempts to harm the officer.
5. Active Aggression - A threat or overt act of an assault, coupled with the present ability to
carry out the threat or assault, which reasonably indicates that an assault or injury to any
person is imminent.
6. Aggravated Active Aggression - Deadly force encounter.
7. Psychological Intimidation, Verbal Non-Compliance and Passive Resistance usually do
not involve conduct sufficient to support criminal charges related to resistance.

b. Acceptable uses of the ERD/TASER include:
1. To incapacitate a combative or physically resistive person; whose conduct rises
at least to the level of Active Aggression. The purpose is to neutralize the
person to the point they can be safely controlled and taken into custody. This
use of force option becomes necessary when other force options would be
inappropriate or ineffective under the circumstances. (Active Aggression: A
threat or overt act of an assault, coupled with the present ability to carry out the
threat or assault, which reasonably indicates that an assault or injury to any


person is
imminent.), OR
2. In situations when its use is likely to prevent an officer or a third person from
serious bodily injury, OR
3. To incapacitate a suicidal person who can’t be safely controlled with other force

options.

So the bottom line is that given that the deceased did not pose a threat to anyone there was no need for the rookie to use his taser. Isn't that what most of us have been saying?
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Old 11-29-11, 01:08 PM   #75
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srsly...?

Helmet use has what to do with the OP? You could easily have quoted the article to make a point regarding this recent killing, but there was actually no need--because there was absolutely no relevance to the OP--to bring up your personal views on helmet use.

So why do it?

Because you're trolling. Take your helmet issues and go away. There's a stickied thread at the top of A&S specifically for helmet discussions. Suggest you post there instead of trolling here.
I could say the same thing to you. Both cases are (whether you see it or not) similar. As in both cases we have a person who was minding their own business when a LEO attempted to stop them. Both were tased, the only difference is/was that the first man survived his encounter with the LEO(s) and the second man didn't.

Given that the first man was wearing a helmet it is logical to presume that the helmet or lack there of had a bearing in each case.

There was no intent to do anything other then to compare the two cases. If you want to choose to see it as a case of someone trolling well I guess that's your right.
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