I just don't get it about the mirrors.
07-26-12, 08:16 AM
#526
Banned
From my personal experience, I'm more cautious when passing a cyclist that I'm not able to see a visible mirror on their bicycle or person, since most local cyclists that operate without a mirror are generally unaware of my presence until I am passing them. The local cyclists that do operate with a mirror, passing them is more difficult since the race has been going for sometime before I ever get close enough to them.
Just to let you know, there are no MUPs on my commute, and the local motorists don't even have a clue that two cyclists ever entered into a speed contest.
07-26-12, 09:00 AM
#527
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Perhaps we could end this thread on a conciliatory note. I'll go first.
There are two kinds of cyclists:
1. Timid, unsteady cyclists who are unable look behind them without putting themselves and others in grave danger, for whom mirrors are not only a godsend, but should be a legal requirement as well.
2. Skilled cyclists.
There are two kinds of cyclists:
1. Timid, unsteady cyclists who are unable look behind them without putting themselves and others in grave danger, for whom mirrors are not only a godsend, but should be a legal requirement as well.
2. Skilled cyclists.
As an evolutionary descendant of tool users, you've got my vote for one of the most direct and honest posts I've seen.
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07-26-12, 09:01 AM
#528
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Spoken like an evolutionary biologist! Darwin would be pleased. The Darwin award goes to those least likely to procreate. That's about as simple an explanation there is for natural selection. Hijacking Darwin? What a crock. I don't really give a rip if a rider uses (or not) a unique tool...a mirror. If you have a mirror and don't use it effectively, it's as good as not being there.
07-26-12, 09:20 AM
#529
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Howso?
No. Cars, and especially trucks (trust me, I drove them) have blind spots. That's why it is standard to "check your blind spot". Also, with head mounted mirrors, despite their small size, since they are closer to the eye the actual area you see is much larger than most mirrors. I know I can see more and more clearly than even most rearview+side car mirrors.
Absolutely. It isn't that one must have them to ride safely; I've not had it on me from time to time and I get along fine. Of course riding with a mirror doesn't make you Mr. Safety and make up for other cycling shortcomings. But there is simply no question that, all things being equal, a skilled rider with a mirror will be more situationally aware than a skilled rider without. When operating in traffic, mirrors allow you to "scan", keeping tabs on what is going on behind you. This makes merging, as an example, far easier than head checks. A head check forces you to completely move your field of view away from the front of you... don't most cyclists on here talk about how "it only takes a few seconds" of distraction for accidents to occur? A mirror keeps your field of view forward, so even if it is focused on the mirror, your peripheral still catches movement in front of you. Plays to our evolutionary advantages.
Another example would be that this "scanning" allows you to keep tabs during a pass, which saved me from being doored. I was cycling straight down a road with no turns in a bike lane... I would have had no need of a head check. Yet, scanning showed me the passing driver was drifting right, into me. Sure, I could have done a head check and might have done so at the very moment needed (unlikely though, since even the most paranoid head-checker can't "scan" as well as with a mirror), but would anybody have actually done so when there was no reason to necessitate it?
I just don't see any compelling argument why mirrors would give any sort of disadvantage or anything but an advantage while operating in traffic. If you don't want one, go for it. You can cycle reasonably safely without. But I refuse yo believe you'll be as aware of your surroundings as with a mirror. Of course, depending on the kind of traffic you deal with, you may not really need to be. That's valid, sure.
I'm not aware of any studies on mirror usage. Logic will have to suffice. Using logic, I don't see how one could argue that mirrors are in any way inferior and not superior to a head check. Takes less time to perform, and so can be done more often with little to no penalty, and doesn't divert your view from what is in front of you. One can argue that in a certain situation you don't really need that advantage, sure, but not that there is no advantage.
Absolutely. As I said, just because you have a mirror doesn't make you a safe cyclist. It is only a tool, and as with any tool, how effective it will be depends on the user. But that =/= head checks are just as effective. No, I do not think they are necessary to cycle safely; many people can and do well without. But I do think they are a useful tool to that end, and I'll take what help I can get out there.
In most passenger cars (not talking about trucks, for example), mirrors can be set-up so there are no "blind spots" that are big enough to hide other motor vehicles. The blind spots that exist for other things aren't accessible to turning around and looking. One big difference between cars and bicycles is that cars can easily have multiple large mirrors.
Many bicycle riders do just fine without mirrors; many do just fine with them.
Another example would be that this "scanning" allows you to keep tabs during a pass, which saved me from being doored. I was cycling straight down a road with no turns in a bike lane... I would have had no need of a head check. Yet, scanning showed me the passing driver was drifting right, into me. Sure, I could have done a head check and might have done so at the very moment needed (unlikely though, since even the most paranoid head-checker can't "scan" as well as with a mirror), but would anybody have actually done so when there was no reason to necessitate it?
I just don't see any compelling argument why mirrors would give any sort of disadvantage or anything but an advantage while operating in traffic. If you don't want one, go for it. You can cycle reasonably safely without. But I refuse yo believe you'll be as aware of your surroundings as with a mirror. Of course, depending on the kind of traffic you deal with, you may not really need to be. That's valid, sure.
The problem with this thread is the arguments that one way is "better". In fact, no one has presented any evidence that one or the other, executed skillfully, is better. There's ample evidence that either can work.
I certainly know mirror users who are less aware of things going on around them than many non-mirror users. They might be better-off first learning how not to need the mirror.
Last edited by sudo bike; 07-26-12 at 09:28 AM.
07-26-12, 12:07 PM
#530
Senior Member
I'm proud of my heritage, which I trace back to when my Great[SUP]2,372,498,941,885,692[/SUP] Grandfather, a randy young amino acid, married a cute little nucleotide and got stuck by lightning while on their honeymoon.
07-26-12, 01:11 PM
#531
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ooh Darwin award, not Darwin's theory of natural selection/origins of species, where when you use senses and appendages you keep senses and appendages. and the more you use senses and appendages the more your descendants will develop the senses and appendages to further their advantage of them.
the Darwin awards have only been around since 1994 and do nothing to illuminate theories published in 1859 by Charles Darwin. instead of Darwin you really should have used Murphy's Law for the example of man's tendency to misjudge physics. you have to have offspring who suffer the detrimental consequences of your behavior to get Darwin evolved in your argument. it's hard to believe one could confuse natural selection with offing yourself in some hilarious manor but congratulations you've done it.
07-26-12, 01:43 PM
#532
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ooh Darwin award, not Darwin's theory of natural selection/origins of species, where when you use senses and appendages you keep senses and appendages. and the more you use senses and appendages the more your descendants will develop the senses and appendages to further their advantage of them.
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07-26-12, 03:37 PM
#533
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Uh no, that's Lamarckian evolution, the theory preceeding Darwin's which his theory opposed. It's not about whether or not you use something that allows you to pass it on, it's if you by chance get an inheritable trait and that trait makes you more likely to procreate then you'll pass the trait on according to Darwin (and current accepted evolutionary theory).
but it's not chance that precipitates the change, it's the needs of our situation that influences change. to simplify natural selection, if you don't use it you'll lose it, if you need it you'll grow it. we can see this in our own lifetime and within a few generations. why would the Irish have fair skin and dew proof hair if it was just by chance. why would Scandinavians have fairer skin and fluffy hair but for the need? current accepted scientific theory states our children and their children will develop longer, more agile thumbs because of the excessive use, from texting.(?) how could the thumbs get longer by chance? it's the need that precedes the change. none of these changes would interfere with the likelihood of procreating but it would affect changes in how we lived comfortably. that's the problem of theory, by definition it's not fact. Darwin opened the door to the possibilities but that's all he could do and dying from stupidity doesn't figure in to his theory.
07-26-12, 03:41 PM
#534
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I say you are full of yourself (among other things) and you have learned nothing about other cyclists from your super duper "experience."
07-26-12, 03:46 PM
#535
Senior Member
BFD. 40 years ago I commuted from West Oak Lane to City Hall right down Broad Street for 6 years, 6.5 miles in; I usually returned Via East/West River Drive paths and Germantown 13 miles return; if in a rush I used Broad Street on the return. Still commute today in a vastly different traffic environment on 55mph highways.
I say you are full of yourself (among other things) and you have learned nothing about other cyclists from your super duper "experience."
I say you are full of yourself (among other things) and you have learned nothing about other cyclists from your super duper "experience."
BTW, climb the manayunk wall every day on mile 9 of the commute home, then tell me how rough it was going up broad street.
Also, is there, like, a reason why you would go on broad street instead of, say, 15th street, or 13th?
You are more full of yourself than even seems possible.
07-26-12, 05:01 PM
#536
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Incorrect.
BTW, climb the manayunk wall every day on mile 9 of the commute home, then tell me how rough it was going up broad street.
Also, is there, like, a reason why you would go on broad street instead of, say, 15th street, or 13th?
You are more full of yourself than even seems possible.
BTW, climb the manayunk wall every day on mile 9 of the commute home, then tell me how rough it was going up broad street.
Also, is there, like, a reason why you would go on broad street instead of, say, 15th street, or 13th?
You are more full of yourself than even seems possible.
What does climbing the Manayunk Wall ( a steep hill for the uninitiated in racer lore) have to with anything?
Broad Street offered better cycling through wider lanes, better visibility of cross traffic at intersections, no trolley tracks and less interaction with the local gentry. But would you know about that because YOU climb the Manayunk Wall. BFD I am suitably unimpressed.
07-26-12, 05:20 PM
#537
Senior Member
No one is talking about Rough Riding but you tuff guy. Climbing a hill or go fast bragging doesn't add up to cycling knowledge or experience, except maybe at the racer boy club house.
What does climbing the Manayunk Wall ( a steep hill for the uninitiated in racer lore) have to with anything?
Broad Street offered better cycling through wider lanes, better visibility of cross traffic at intersections, no trolley tracks and less interaction with the local gentry. But would you know about that because YOU climb the Manayunk Wall. BFD I am suitably unimpressed.
What does climbing the Manayunk Wall ( a steep hill for the uninitiated in racer lore) have to with anything?
Broad Street offered better cycling through wider lanes, better visibility of cross traffic at intersections, no trolley tracks and less interaction with the local gentry. But would you know about that because YOU climb the Manayunk Wall. BFD I am suitably unimpressed.
You seem to say BFD a lot.
Why is that?
07-26-12, 05:44 PM
#538
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In most passenger cars (not talking about trucks, for example), mirrors can be set-up so there are no "blind spots" that are big enough to hide other motor vehicles. The blind spots that exist for other things aren't accessible to turning around and looking. One big difference between cars and bicycles is that cars can easily have multiple large mirrors.
Car mirrors can be set-up on most passenger cars to eliminate any blind spot that you can look at by turning your head (that is, you can't look at the blind spot low behind the trunk).
Anyway, anything that you can look into (by any method) isn't a "blind spot".
Absolutely. As I said, just because you have a mirror doesn't make you a safe cyclist. It is only a tool, and as with any tool, how effective it will be depends on the user. But that =/= head checks are just as effective. No, I do not think they are necessary to cycle safely; many people can and do well without. But I do think they are a useful tool to that end, and I'll take what help I can get out there.
Last edited by njkayaker; 07-26-12 at 05:49 PM.
07-26-12, 06:52 PM
#539
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but it's not chance that precipitates the change, it's the needs of our situation that influences change. to simplify natural selection, if you don't use it you'll lose it, if you need it you'll grow it. we can see this in our own lifetime and within a few generations. why would the Irish have fair skin and dew proof hair if it was just by chance. why would Scandinavians have fairer skin and fluffy hair but for the need?
none of these changes would interfere with the likelihood of procreating but it would affect changes in how we lived comfortably. that's the problem of theory, by definition it's not fact. Darwin opened the door to the possibilities but that's all he could do and dying from stupidity doesn't figure in to his theory.
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07-26-12, 07:07 PM
#540
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Perhaps we could end this thread on a conciliatory note. I'll go first.
There are two kinds of cyclists:
1. Timid, unsteady cyclists who are unable look behind them without putting themselves and others in grave danger, for whom mirrors are not only a godsend, but should be a legal requirement as well.
2. Skilled cyclists.
There are two kinds of cyclists:
1. Timid, unsteady cyclists who are unable look behind them without putting themselves and others in grave danger, for whom mirrors are not only a godsend, but should be a legal requirement as well.
2. Skilled cyclists.
Jseis, I agree. I would just take it a little further, listing the categories in a way that may make some thin skins a little softer:
CAT.1 - I have tried a mirror and I like it -- I still use one.
CAT.2 - I have tried a mirror and didn't like it -- no longer use one.
CAT.3 - I have not tried a mirror, but I am curious.
CAT.4 - I have not tried a mirror, and don't care to.
Let's all pick our category, and STFU about it; we're not going to win hearts and minds to our 'side'. I'm a CAT.4, so all you CAT.1's can ride on, the way you like, and allow me the same grace.
07-26-12, 08:28 PM
#541
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Another self proclaimed "competent/skilled" bicyclist, smugly superior to all others who don't meet your self proclaimed lordly standards. You represent the worst in bicycling and bicycling advocacy.
Last edited by I-Like-To-Bike; 07-26-12 at 08:47 PM. Reason: clarification
07-26-12, 09:55 PM
#542
Geck, wo ist mein Fahrrad
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Um, you're putting the cart before the horse here.
No, this is in fact not currently accepted scientific theory
I've noticed that.
True, that the Darwin award has nothing to do with Darwin (I prefer to call it a little chlorine bleach for the gene pool), but other than that this post is all wrong. Again, you're talking about Lamarckian evolution, which has been discredited by biologists for, oh, maybe 100 years or so. Because you use something, doesn't mean your kids will have that particular trait more developed. And new traits don't appear within a lifetime or two. That's just not how evolution works.
No, this is in fact not currently accepted scientific theory
I've noticed that.
True, that the Darwin award has nothing to do with Darwin (I prefer to call it a little chlorine bleach for the gene pool), but other than that this post is all wrong. Again, you're talking about Lamarckian evolution, which has been discredited by biologists for, oh, maybe 100 years or so. Because you use something, doesn't mean your kids will have that particular trait more developed. And new traits don't appear within a lifetime or two. That's just not how evolution works.
unfortunately we can never "darwin" the stupid gene out of us. it's with us whether we like it or not, so we all might as well go enjoy all the stupid while we can. life is short. I hope when your grandkids are born, that they're not born with tentacles for fingers and an elongated neck because of all the texting kids are doing with their chin in their lap for a better view, but if they are, nah nah na-aaahnah.
finally how does death know we died of stupidity? yes again with the darwin award, you'd think if our stoopid deaths really could breed a smarter people, why aren't deaths from disease breeding disease resistant people? it seems to be the opposite trend but I'm not a doctor and don't get me started on the medical community. I have to say the darwin awards do evolve the rest of us in way at least for our lifetimes. I know I've scratched a few projects off the list thanks to all ready seeing someone try it and not faring so well.
furthermore thanks again for the Lamarckianlesson, I'm going to name the resident raccoon, Lamarckian.
07-27-12, 12:37 AM
#543
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tell how your mirror helps you in a left cross situation, a right hook, a pull out or a door?
why don't you spend more time concentrating on the road in front of you and less time freaking out about any and all possibilities behind you? if you're that scared, you should take the bus. believing a mirror is helpful is one thing but you're trying to share your phobia and I'm just not that into your fear.
"ears have exceptional directional sensitivity" you say it like it's a joke. you should read up on how incredible senses really are. unless you never use these senses and then of course you would de-evolve and require some sort of aid to achieve what biology had blessed you with, then you'd have to mock others around you for not using the tools that made you lazy in the first place. 22 catch.
why don't you spend more time concentrating on the road in front of you and less time freaking out about any and all possibilities behind you? if you're that scared, you should take the bus. believing a mirror is helpful is one thing but you're trying to share your phobia and I'm just not that into your fear.
"ears have exceptional directional sensitivity" you say it like it's a joke. you should read up on how incredible senses really are. unless you never use these senses and then of course you would de-evolve and require some sort of aid to achieve what biology had blessed you with, then you'd have to mock others around you for not using the tools that made you lazy in the first place. 22 catch.
Dude! You have got to lay off the bath salts.
07-27-12, 12:56 AM
#544
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You seriously suggest a mirror is useful when cars are pulling turns in front of you, opening doors in front of you and pulling out in front of you and then accuse me of bath salt usage? which way are your mirrors pointed? or better yet which way are you pointed? did you have anything to say with your post or did you just want to to endorse the pos-e-vac? I'm glad it works well for you, I've heard good things about it. I'm sure you're just trying to be be funny, keep trying you'll get there some day.
oh and that's okay I'm not that into my mother either.
oh and that's okay I'm not that into my mother either.
07-27-12, 04:06 AM
#545
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whoa - a fundament of the mirror equation has been revealed.
if people don't understand how mirrors can help in situations when cars are pulling turns in front of you, opening doors in front of you and pulling out in front of you, you just don't get it about the mirrors!
I can see why there's so many misconceptions.
if people don't understand how mirrors can help in situations when cars are pulling turns in front of you, opening doors in front of you and pulling out in front of you, you just don't get it about the mirrors!
I can see why there's so many misconceptions.
07-27-12, 04:34 AM
#546
Senior Member
SPIKE, your post was #522; here is #540 (I think). Somehow, your wish was unfulfilled. Maybe it was the conciliatory nature of it -- after all, this is A&S.
Jseis, I agree. I would just take it a little further, listing the categories in a way that may make some thin skins a little softer:
CAT.1 - I have tried a mirror and I like it -- I still use one.
CAT.2 - I have tried a mirror and didn't like it -- no longer use one.
CAT.3 - I have not tried a mirror, but I am curious.
CAT.4 - I have not tried a mirror, and don't care to.
Let's all pick our category, and STFU about it; we're not going to win hearts and minds to our 'side'. I'm a CAT.4, so all you CAT.1's can ride on, the way you like, and allow me the same grace.
Jseis, I agree. I would just take it a little further, listing the categories in a way that may make some thin skins a little softer:
CAT.1 - I have tried a mirror and I like it -- I still use one.
CAT.2 - I have tried a mirror and didn't like it -- no longer use one.
CAT.3 - I have not tried a mirror, but I am curious.
CAT.4 - I have not tried a mirror, and don't care to.
Let's all pick our category, and STFU about it; we're not going to win hearts and minds to our 'side'. I'm a CAT.4, so all you CAT.1's can ride on, the way you like, and allow me the same grace.
CAT.2 - I have tried a mirror and didn't like it -- no longer use one
07-27-12, 04:38 AM
#547
Senior Member
Because I think you are a pompous "character", full of hot air. Climb the Manayunk Wall - Zowie! Demanding eye contact from the lowly "unskilled" bicyclists who you "drop" left and right on while you blaze along on the MUP -Whoopdedoo! You must be the original Spike Bike himself.
Another self proclaimed "competent/skilled" bicyclist, smugly superior to all others who don't meet your self proclaimed lordly standards. You represent the worst in bicycling and bicycling advocacy.
Another self proclaimed "competent/skilled" bicyclist, smugly superior to all others who don't meet your self proclaimed lordly standards. You represent the worst in bicycling and bicycling advocacy.
07-27-12, 05:07 AM
#548
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yes, I was learned on this Lamarckian business, thanks for that, nice to know I disagree with Darwin even more. as for current accepted scientific theories, if the science experts are anything like the experts in the other fun arenas of the world I imagine they're so busy trying to prove one another wrong, they lose sight of seeking the the truth. lest ways I fail to see why the scientific community would be different than the religious community, the educational community (Go State!), the political community, my family and this and every other forum there is.
unfortunately we can never "darwin" the stupid gene out of us. it's with us whether we like it or not, so we all might as well go enjoy all the stupid while we can. life is short. I hope when your grandkids are born, that they're not born with tentacles for fingers and an elongated neck because of all the texting kids are doing with their chin in their lap for a better view, but if they are, nah nah na-aaahnah.
finally how does death know we died of stupidity? yes again with the darwin award, you'd think if our stoopid deaths really could breed a smarter people, why aren't deaths from disease breeding disease resistant people? it seems to be the opposite trend but I'm not a doctor and don't get me started on the medical community. I have to say the darwin awards do evolve the rest of us in way at least for our lifetimes. I know I've scratched a few projects off the list thanks to all ready seeing someone try it and not faring so well.
furthermore thanks again for the Lamarckianlesson, I'm going to name the resident raccoon, Lamarckian.
unfortunately we can never "darwin" the stupid gene out of us. it's with us whether we like it or not, so we all might as well go enjoy all the stupid while we can. life is short. I hope when your grandkids are born, that they're not born with tentacles for fingers and an elongated neck because of all the texting kids are doing with their chin in their lap for a better view, but if they are, nah nah na-aaahnah.
finally how does death know we died of stupidity? yes again with the darwin award, you'd think if our stoopid deaths really could breed a smarter people, why aren't deaths from disease breeding disease resistant people? it seems to be the opposite trend but I'm not a doctor and don't get me started on the medical community. I have to say the darwin awards do evolve the rest of us in way at least for our lifetimes. I know I've scratched a few projects off the list thanks to all ready seeing someone try it and not faring so well.
furthermore thanks again for the Lamarckianlesson, I'm going to name the resident raccoon, Lamarckian.
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Bikes: 1996 Eddy Merckx Titanium EX, 1989/90 Colnago Super(issimo?) Piu(?),
07-27-12, 06:38 AM
#549
Senior Member
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Location: Hawthorne NJ
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Bikes: Surly LHT, Wabi Special, All City Big Block, 1933 Iver Johnson Mobicycle, Giant TCR Advanced
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SPIKE, your post was #522; here is #540 (I think). Somehow, your wish was unfulfilled. Maybe it was the conciliatory nature of it -- after all, this is A&S.
Jseis, I agree. I would just take it a little further, listing the categories in a way that may make some thin skins a little softer:
CAT.1 - I have tried a mirror and I like it -- I still use one.
CAT.2 - I have tried a mirror and didn't like it -- no longer use one.
CAT.3 - I have not tried a mirror, but I am curious.
CAT.4 - I have not tried a mirror, and don't care to.
Let's all pick our category, and STFU about it; we're not going to win hearts and minds to our 'side'. I'm a CAT.4, so all you CAT.1's can ride on, the way you like, and allow me the same grace.
Jseis, I agree. I would just take it a little further, listing the categories in a way that may make some thin skins a little softer:
CAT.1 - I have tried a mirror and I like it -- I still use one.
CAT.2 - I have tried a mirror and didn't like it -- no longer use one.
CAT.3 - I have not tried a mirror, but I am curious.
CAT.4 - I have not tried a mirror, and don't care to.
Let's all pick our category, and STFU about it; we're not going to win hearts and minds to our 'side'. I'm a CAT.4, so all you CAT.1's can ride on, the way you like, and allow me the same grace.
I wear prescription glasses and when I turn my head to look back my vision is impaired. When I use my helmet/hat mounted mirror my vision is not impaired. I see (pun intended) other advantages but this is the most important point for me.
Last edited by jerseyJim; 07-27-12 at 07:04 AM.
07-27-12, 08:07 AM
#550
Arizona Dessert
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: AZ
Posts: 15,030
Bikes: Cannondale SuperSix, Lemond Poprad. Retired: Jamis Sputnik, Centurion LeMans Fixed, Diamond Back ascent ex
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They are and it has been explained. But you are too busy trying to rile folks up instead of participating in an honest discussion to have noticed.