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Old 04-17-12, 11:49 PM   #26
Digital_Cowboy
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Originally Posted by Commodus View Post
I don't think it's reasonable to require a driver to look for something that isn't allowed to be there.

When I drove, I encountered tons of driveways in which it would have been thoroughly impossible to see a cyclist at an adequate distance, moving at normal speed, due to various obstructions. This is why cycling on sidewalks is illegal.
Ever hear of the doctrine of last clear chance?
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Old 04-18-12, 06:56 AM   #27
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Ever hear of the doctrine of last clear chance?
Doesn't that require BOTH parties to make efforts to avoid collisions, regardless of right/wrong?
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Old 04-18-12, 06:59 AM   #28
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Let me pose an example: I am driving in your neighborhood where YOUR kids play. Do you still maintain that I can freely speed through YOUR neighborhood, and put YOUR KIDS at risk?
You can't freely speed through ANY neighborhood.

Even in this situation, let me provide a counter-example. Kid darts out from between parked cars and gets hit. Driver was obeying all laws. Driver at fault?

Depending on the geometry of the intersection (a driveway is a private intersection) it could be almost exactly the same thing. Hedges, mailboxes, poles, all kinds of things could have made it almost impossible for the driver to see. Some driveways are laid out such that a vehicle driver can't see what's on the sidewalk until the vehicle is already blocking a lot of it. I don't like those layouts but it's hardly the driver's fault.

In any case, I fail to see how citing a vehicle operator for violating a law after an accident is even contentious.
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Old 04-18-12, 07:01 AM   #29
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The motorist would have likely run over an electric wheelchair as well. Do you think the motorist should watch for electric wheelchairs and be held acountable if they run over them?
Doubtful. Wheelchairs don't usually go 10+ MPH, they go walking speed, perhaps 5 MPH, a speed which a driver is expecting on the sidewalk.
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Old 04-18-12, 08:05 AM   #30
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Ever hear of the doctrine of last clear chance?
Yes, and that's essentially what I agreed to in my last post. Even though the cyclist wasn't allowed to be there, the driver was still in a position to reasonably avoid this accident.
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Old 04-18-12, 09:31 AM   #31
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.....a speed which a driver is expecting on the sidewalk.
..and probably why the motorist crossed the sidewalk at the speed they did without much thought. In a word, complacency.

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Old 04-18-12, 09:53 AM   #32
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that's a big problem in Colorado every city has a different rule. in Pueblo I was yelled at by cops that said ride on the sidewalk. in Denver I was yelled at by cops because I rode on the sidewalk. in some cities it's ok to ride on the sidewalks but not "downtown", all two blocks of it. there should either be a general rule or at least signage to state the rule. the girl that got hit didn't know she couldn't ride there. mind you it's okay for the Denver cops on bikes to ride where ever they please.
Apparently those Denver bike cops fail to realize they are setting examples for anyone that sees them.
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Old 04-18-12, 09:55 AM   #33
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But running at 10 mph is legal. If the motorist hit the cyclist as he "crossed the sidewalk in a hurry", he would have also hit a runner. The motorist broke the law just like the cyclist broke the law and they both deserved tickets.

The motorist would have likely run over an electric wheelchair as well. Do you think the motorist should watch for electric wheelchairs and be held acountable if they run over them?
My wife typically bikes at 8MPH... while cycling on sidewalks is often illegal, doing 8MPH on the street would sure upset some drivers... I can't help but wonder how fast the cyclist was going... and whether the motorist would have seen her had she been right there in the street.
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Old 04-18-12, 11:19 AM   #34
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Apparently those Denver bike cops fail to realize they are setting examples for anyone that sees them.
They do that in Salem, too. They ride around on the sidewalks and ticket other bicyclists for riding on the sidewalks.
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Old 04-18-12, 11:59 AM   #35
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My wife typically bikes at 8MPH... while cycling on sidewalks is often illegal, doing 8MPH on the street would sure upset some drivers...
You can't win the speed battle when on a bike. If you're riding 15 MPH on the sidewalk, they'll get mad at you riding recklessly. If you ride 15 MPH in the street, they'll honk at you for going too slow, and then someone will right-hook or left-cross you because they "didn't think bikes moved that fast." I've even heard of people doing 30 MPH in the street getting harassed for riding recklessly (while just keeping up with traffic).
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Old 04-18-12, 12:01 PM   #36
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Apparently those Denver bike cops fail to realize they are setting examples for anyone that sees them.
I just got stopped by a Denver cop and boy am I beat. Denver cops are a good example of a bad example of a police officer.

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Old 04-18-12, 01:09 PM   #37
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Doubtful. Wheelchairs don't usually go 10+ MPH, they go walking speed, perhaps 5 MPH, a speed which a driver is expecting on the sidewalk.
You and I must have seen different electric wheelchairs. And Segways are limited to 12.5 mph by a speed limiter which if overridden will allow them to go 20 mph.
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Old 04-18-12, 01:26 PM   #38
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I just got stopped by a Denver cop and boy am I beat.....
Any story behind this that you are willing to inform us about?
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Old 04-18-12, 05:44 PM   #39
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Yes, and that's essentially what I agreed to in my last post. Even though the cyclist wasn't allowed to be there, the driver was still in a position to reasonably avoid this accident.
Which applies as much to the cyclist.
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Old 04-18-12, 06:14 PM   #40
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Here's a google street view of the driveway: http://g.co/maps/xv7rj

Its the driveway for the starbucks strip mall going onto Asbury. Those look like some nice sight lines.
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Old 04-18-12, 09:49 PM   #41
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Doesn't that require BOTH parties to make efforts to avoid collisions, regardless of right/wrong?
It requires if I'm not mistaken for you as the driver to avoid hitting a salmoning cyclist, even though he is operating illegally. Here is a link for the Doctrine of last Clear Chance.
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Old 04-18-12, 09:55 PM   #42
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Doubtful. Wheelchairs don't usually go 10+ MPH, they go walking speed, perhaps 5 MPH, a speed which a driver is expecting on the sidewalk.
Really, what wheelchairs have you seen that usually go 10+ MPH? If that were the case then why did the VA put up signs in all of it's buildings telling wheelchair/mobility device users to use the SLOWEST speed when indoors?
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Old 04-18-12, 09:58 PM   #43
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Yes, and that's essentially what I agreed to in my last post. Even though the cyclist wasn't allowed to be there, the driver was still in a position to reasonably avoid this accident.
Agreed, or in an example that I was in not too long ago. I was riding to the library on a Sunday afternoon. There was a bus discharging a passenger. Who apparently had her cell phone "glued" to her ear before she got off of the bus. She is so engrossed in her conversation that she steps off of the curb without even looking.

If I hadn't been paying attention I would have run her over. And ironically I'd have been at fault cause I had the last clear chance to avoid the crash.
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Old 04-18-12, 10:50 PM   #44
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Really, what wheelchairs have you seen that usually go 10+ MPH? If that were the case then why did the VA put up signs in all of it's buildings telling wheelchair/mobility device users to use the SLOWEST speed when indoors?
when I lived in Denver I there was one fellow in a wheelchair that seemed intent on disabling pedestrians, with one hand (he had two) he absolutely flew down sidewalks giving little regard for others, and modified electric wheelchairs could easily exceed 15 mph.

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Old 04-19-12, 12:47 AM   #45
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when I lived in Denver I there was one fellow in a wheelchair that seemed intent on disabling pedestrians, with one hand he absolutely flew down sidewalks giving little regard for others, and modified electric wheelchairs could easily exceed 15 mph.
You'd think that someone in a wheelchair would be more not less careful around pedestrians.
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Old 04-19-12, 01:09 PM   #46
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Really, what wheelchairs have you seen that usually go 10+ MPH? If that were the case then why did the VA put up signs in all of it's buildings telling wheelchair/mobility device users to use the SLOWEST speed when indoors?
Did you not see the "DON'T" in my message?

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Wheelchairs don't usually go 10+ MPH, they go walking speed
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Old 04-19-12, 01:38 PM   #47
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Did you not see the "DON'T" in my message?
Yes, I did, and I stand by what I said. IF that was the case, then why does the VA "need" to put signs at EVERY entrance instructing wheelchair users to use the slow speed?
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Old 04-19-12, 04:32 PM   #48
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Yes, I did, and I stand by what I said. IF that was the case, then why does the VA "need" to put signs at EVERY entrance instructing wheelchair users to use the slow speed?
OK, your message was just oddly worded, you were asking if I'd ever seen a wheelchair that went 10+ MPH, implying that you didn't think any of them did, and that's exactly what I was saying as well.

I know that wheelchairs have multiple speed ranges but I wasn't aware that they commonly had ranges that went 10 or more miles per hour.
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Old 04-19-12, 06:14 PM   #49
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I've seen some pretty fast wheelchairs. I have no idea how fast, but certainly faster than a normal walking speed. I know because the driver barged his way past me!
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Old 04-19-12, 09:30 PM   #50
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OK, your message was just oddly worded, you were asking if I'd ever seen a wheelchair that went 10+ MPH, implying that you didn't think any of them did, and that's exactly what I was saying as well.

I know that wheelchairs have multiple speed ranges but I wasn't aware that they commonly had ranges that went 10 or more miles per hour.
I apologize for that. When I used to go to James A. Haley over in Tampa it was real bad. Vet's in electronic wheelchairs/electronic assist "vehicles" riding around and acting like those of us who didn't need to use them had to get out of their way.

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I've seen some pretty fast wheelchairs. I have no idea how fast, but certainly faster than a normal walking speed. I know because the driver barged his way past me!
Agreed, you'd think that people who are in wheelchairs/electronic assist "vehicles" would be more careful.
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