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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by WickedThump View Post
    Now that I'm awake, it was a guy from Denmark telling me that's the way it is in Germany.
    Okay, you were in earnest. Sorry!

    I must say that I never heard of such a law in Germany, either, but then, why should I? .

    Maybe it's directed at commercial (/ocean) fishing?

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by hagen2456 View Post
    I don't know why you would stress the competition element, as it has nothing to do with the basical observations.

    Of course coaching will make most people better at any acticvity, be that football, sex or cycling. Still, some are able to learn a lot, some very little, and what they're able to learn obviously also has to do with age. All of which doesn't change the truth of what Genec and I wrote.
    "What is the truth of what Genec and [Hagen] wrote?" You are confronted with actual test results that show that almost anyone, of a wide range of ages, can learn to obey the rules of the road while cycling on real roads in real traffic. Do you two have test results that differ from that? Since you don't, you should cease debating the issue.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Forester View Post
    "What is the truth of what Genec and [Hagen] wrote?" You are confronted with actual test results that show that almost anyone, of a wide range of ages, can learn to obey the rules of the road while cycling on real roads in real traffic. Do you two have test results that differ from that? Since you don't, you should cease debating the issue.
    You know, those tests are of a very narrow scope, whereas the recommendations given by the Danish authorities are based on the number of casualties of cyclists over the whole age spectrum (with due consideration, of course, of all parametres such as the number of cyclists in any given sub group as well as the conditions of the accidents). And as I told you, the latest findings about children's ability to judge the speed of a vehicle supports those recommendations.

    Ah, I found it: http://www.cyclorama.net/blog/cycling-news/20s-plenty/
    Last edited by hagen2456; 04-28-12 at 05:10 PM.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Forester View Post
    Both Genec's and Hagen's comments apply to competitive activities in which some succeed and some fail. That was not the case in the child cycling classes that I taught; almost (possibly all) of those who completed the program up to the final test on real roads in real traffic (the same conditions in which they had been trained) past the test. Class average scores were about 95% when the average score for the local adults on the roads at commuting times was a miserable, and flunking, 55%. You see, obeying the rules of the road for drivers of vehicles is quite an easy task that almost anyone can do. I have had adult students who have overcome disabilities as well, although I have had a very few adult students whom I had to advise to not try to learn vehicular cycling. In each case, these persons could not control their bicycles through subconscious activity, but had to continually think about controlling their bicycle to such an extent that they could not pay the proper attention to traffic. My guess, based on very little information, is that these might be 2% of the adult population.
    It sounds as if the 2% of the adult population of which you are speaking were those folks that never rode a bike before.

    My comments are in the context of sending 10-13 year old children out to commute on 50, 55, and 65MPH roads where even skilled cyclists have been killed. Now seriously do you believe that children of that age should be on our US roads with traffic moving by at those speeds, and that those children could for instance negotiate a vehicular left turn in moderate to heavy traffic?

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Forester View Post
    Both Genec's and Hagen's comments apply to competitive activities in which some succeed and some fail. That was not the case in the child cycling classes that I taught; almost (possibly all) of those who completed the program up to the final test on real roads in real traffic (the same conditions in which they had been trained) past the test. Class average scores were about 95% when the average score for the local adults on the roads at commuting times was a miserable, and flunking, 55%. You see, obeying the rules of the road for drivers of vehicles is quite an easy task that almost anyone can do....
    Agreed on that. Simply following traffic rules and riding predictably is kid stuff. But that is not what safe cycling is.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by genec View Post
    It sounds as if the 2% of the adult population of which you are speaking were those folks that never rode a bike before.

    My comments are in the context of sending 10-13 year old children out to commute on 50, 55, and 65MPH roads where even skilled cyclists have been killed. Now seriously do you believe that children of that age should be on our US roads with traffic moving by at those speeds, and that those children could for instance negotiate a vehicular left turn in moderate to heavy traffic?
    Genec suggests that it is difficult for cyclists of age 13 (the age at which I said they were qualified for just about any road) to negotiate a vehicular left turn. What is it that makes that negotiation so more difficult for them, Gene. Do you assert that they are unable to tell when a motorist has slowed for them? Or do you assert that motorists will not slow down for cyclists who are aged 13?

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by hagen2456 View Post
    You know, those tests are of a very narrow scope, whereas the recommendations given by the Danish authorities are based on the number of casualties of cyclists over the whole age spectrum (with due consideration, of course, of all parametres such as the number of cyclists in any given sub group as well as the conditions of the accidents). And as I told you, the latest findings about children's ability to judge the speed of a vehicle supports those recommendations.

    Ah, I found it: http://www.cyclorama.net/blog/cycling-news/20s-plenty/
    Hagen asserts that Danish evidence demonstrates that some age groups have a high car-bike collision rate because they don't know how to obey the rules of the road for drivers of vehicles. How do the Danes develop such information, since the predominant cycling mode is not vehicular cycling? Pardon my skepticism about what the Danes say about the ability to perform vehicular cycling.

    The Danish claims about the inability of children to estimate the speed and distance of vehicles for traffic purposes are not made, according to the abstract, from actual measurement of this ability, but are calculated from some measure of visual acuity. Again, pardon my skepticism about such claims.

  8. #33
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Forester View Post
    Genec suggests that it is difficult for cyclists of age 13 (the age at which I said they were qualified for just about any road) to negotiate a vehicular left turn. What is it that makes that negotiation so more difficult for them, Gene. Do you assert that they are unable to tell when a motorist has slowed for them? Or do you assert that motorists will not slow down for cyclists who are aged 13?
    John, let's go back and read my statement again shall we... Go ahead we'll wait. Please do take notice of the road speeds and traffic conditions I mention and then try to answer the question.

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Forester View Post
    Hagen asserts that Danish evidence demonstrates that some age groups have a high car-bike collision rate because they don't know how to obey the rules of the road for drivers of vehicles. How do the Danes develop such information, since the predominant cycling mode is not vehicular cycling? Pardon my skepticism about what the Danes say about the ability to perform vehicular cycling.
    Really, you do like everything to be completely black/white, right? But I've several times informed you that lots of cycling in Denmark (and to a lesser degree, Holland) takes place where no bike facilites are present. In particular outside of the larger cities. Whether that is in the form of hard-core VC or not is irrelevant to the point(s).

    The Danish claims about the inability of children to estimate the speed and distance of vehicles for traffic purposes are not made, according to the abstract, from actual measurement of this ability, but are calculated from some measure of visual acuity. Again, pardon my skepticism about such claims.
    As you've now been informed, again, it is not a matter of abstract reasoning. It's based on experience, and backed up by psycological research.

  10. #35
    Senior Member WickedThump's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hagen2456 View Post
    Okay, you were in earnest. Sorry!

    I must say that I never heard of such a law in Germany, either, but then, why should I? .

    Maybe it's directed at commercial (/ocean) fishing?
    This was a much as I could find:
    http://berlin.angloinfo.com/information/32/fishing.asp
    No mention of age, but the other rumored requirements of classes and permits I'd heard of proved true. Not to besmirch our fine friends in Christendom, but merely to point up cultural differences in protecting the wee ones.

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by WickedThump View Post
    This was a much as I could find:
    http://berlin.angloinfo.com/information/32/fishing.asp
    No mention of age, but the other rumored requirements of classes and permits I'd heard of proved true. Not to besmirch our fine friends in Christendom, but merely to point up cultural differences in protecting the wee ones.
    Well, the wee ones being protected there are first of all the fish, isn't it?

    The Germans are very environment conscious. That makes for a lot of regulation, some of which may look a bit absurd at times. But they mean well, hehe.

  12. #37
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    [QUOTE=hagen2456;14157557]Really, you do like everything to be completely black/white, right? But I've several times informed you that lots of cycling in Denmark (and to a lesser degree, Holland) takes place where no bike facilites are present. In particular outside of the larger cities. Whether that is in the form of hard-core VC or not is irrelevant to the point(s).

    As you've now been informed, again, it is not a matter of abstract reasoning. It's based on experience, and backed up by psycological research.

    You are dodging the issues again. In a discussion of the ability of American trained child cyclists to obey the American rules of the road, you claim that the Danes have evidence disproving my test results. When I suggest that the Danes don't really have evidence about that type of cycling, you reply that whether or not the Danes use vehicular cycling is irrelevant. When you claim that Danish children (under 12 yrs wasn't it?) have been demonstrated to be unable to usefully determine the speed and distance of motor traffic, you offer experience of some kind and a supposed standard that was based on calculations performed on the measured results of visual acuity, without actual testing of the real issue.

  13. #38
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    10 certainly seems like a sound and conservative estimate from the National Traffic Highway Safety Administration to parents about child development and when its appropriate to let loose the kids to go play in traffic on their bicycles.

    I bet they even did some studies.

    of course, parents have considerable leeway. I think some safe cycling classes could only help. The League of American Bicyclists has a couple of courses geared to parents and their kids riding in traffic safely.

    I'm off for a ride now, but i will look into the recommendations from the only nationally recognized bicycle education program, and get back with their recommendations later.
    Last edited by Bekologist; 04-29-12 at 12:45 PM.

  14. #39
    genec genec's Avatar
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    John has conveniently chosen to ignore my comments about sending 10-13 year old children onto highspeed multilane streets with moderate to high traffic to make vehicular left turns....

    Do any of the rest of you think that is a good idea?

    See post 31, above. Do any of you believe that a child of that age has the proper judgement to figure out when and where to start a turn on a high speed road and to judge if the motorists are slowing down for them?

    And if children have such judgement, why don't we issue them drivers licenses?

  15. #40
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    [QUOTE=John Forester;14158438]
    Quote Originally Posted by hagen2456 View Post
    Really, you do like everything to be completely black/white, right? But I've several times informed you that lots of cycling in Denmark (and to a lesser degree, Holland) takes place where no bike facilites are present. In particular outside of the larger cities. Whether that is in the form of hard-core VC or not is irrelevant to the point(s).

    As you've now been informed, again, it is not a matter of abstract reasoning. It's based on experience, and backed up by psycological research.

    You are dodging the issues again. In a discussion of the ability of American trained child cyclists to obey the American rules of the road, you claim that the Danes have evidence disproving my test results. When I suggest that the Danes don't really have evidence about that type of cycling, you reply that whether or not the Danes use vehicular cycling is irrelevant. When you claim that Danish children (under 12 yrs wasn't it?) have been demonstrated to be unable to usefully determine the speed and distance of motor traffic, you offer experience of some kind and a supposed standard that was based on calculations performed on the measured results of visual acuity, without actual testing of the real issue.
    I'm finding it a little difficult to understand that you still can't grasp that the type of cycling is irrelevant to the point in question (unless, of course, we're talking about biking in completely motor vehicle free environments). The point being that whichever modern traffic you're in, the same kind of competences are needed. Of course VC is a lot more stressfull than biking on a segregated bike path, but on the bike path you still have be able to make judgements about the speed and development of traffic around you. And you know, I guess I'll have to tell you one more time that actually not all cycling in Denmark is done on bike paths
    Last edited by hagen2456; 04-29-12 at 01:54 PM.

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by genec View Post
    John has conveniently chosen to ignore my comments about sending 10-13 year old children onto highspeed multilane streets with moderate to high traffic to make vehicular left turns....

    Do any of the rest of you think that is a good idea?

    See post 31, above. Do any of you believe that a child of that age has the proper judgement to figure out when and where to start a turn on a high speed road and to judge if the motorists are slowing down for them?

    And if children have such judgement, why don't we issue them drivers licenses?
    Nope -- I DON'T believe 13-y-o is old enough for that. Nor do I think most drivers will accommodate them in traffic; it would be more of a case of "GET OUTTA THE F*&^%^& STREET, KID! YOU WANNA GET F%^&&^%$ KILLED? WHERE'S YOUR F%^&*((&^% MOTHER?" (A couple of my kids HAVE been cussed by drivers -- which just switches on the rage for me, at which point I turn the air blue for about a quarter-mile in that driver's direction. Well, hey -- if Katt Williams is so popular, you think those words are new to them?)

    My #2 nephew, 17-11/12 (lol), is VERY aware on the street -- partly because of riding with me, partly because of some close calls on his own, and partly because he wants his DL and a car SOOOOOO BAAAAADLY! My daughter, 14, can handle the streets... when she's with me. And she knows that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by genec View Post
    John has conveniently chosen to ignore my comments about sending 10-13 year old children onto highspeed multilane streets with moderate to high traffic to make vehicular left turns....

    Do any of the rest of you think that is a good idea?

    See post 31, above. Do any of you believe that a child of that age has the proper judgement to figure out when and where to start a turn on a high speed road and to judge if the motorists are slowing down for them?

    And if children have such judgement, why don't we issue them drivers licenses?
    Genec lies about my statements. I stated that 10 year old trained cyclists were good for multi-lane roads with medium-speed commercial traffic. I also stated that 13 year old trained cyclists were good for multi-lane roads in general.

    When Genec asserted skepticism about the ability of 13 year old cyclists to negotiate lane changes, I asked him whether he thought that the cyclist was unable to see that a motorist had slowed for him, or whether he thought that motorists would not respond to properly-behaved cyclists just because they were young. Genec has not answered my questions.

    Now Genec tries to put the issue in different terms. He asks the group if any of you believe that a child of that age has the ability to "judge if motorists are slowing down for them?" That's a loaded false question. The issue is not whether a motorist is in the process of slowing down. The issue is whether the motorist has already slowed down to make room for the cyclist, which is an entirely different issue.

  18. #43
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    was that instruction on changing lanes to stay out of the way of faster traffic if not going the speed of traffic and to ride the lane lines so traffic can pass on both sides like in the book about traffic cycling by john forester?

    I've seen some might dubious methodology in Effective Cycling about how not to get in the way of traffic ("properly behaved cyclists"?)that would likely endanger kids to a fair degree.

    instructing kids to be stay out of the way of faster traffic and to ride the lane lines is likely a poor way to teach kids how to negotiate with traffic, to be perfectly honest.

    I think the NHTSA has sound and conservative metrics on kids and road use. They are making general statements about kids under 10 bicycling in traffic.

    maybe traffic dynamics has changed in the last 20-30 years as well. I know when i was riding in the 1970's it was a different world out on the roads. There was a higher degree of attentive driving (no electronic hand held distractions) and lots more respect for kids on bikes.

    I remember riding state highways in Florida as a wee lad, barefoot in the rain... never thought twice about it. I think it might be a different world for kids interacting with traffic nowadays.
    Last edited by Bekologist; 04-30-12 at 09:14 AM.

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by hagen2456 View Post
    It lumps 6 year olds with 11 year olds. There isn't enough detail about the actual data to evaluate it (it's an agenda-driven article anyway).

    At vehicle speeds faster than 20 mph, primary school age children (6-11 years) may not be able to tell that a car is approaching.

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
    It lumps 6 year olds with 11 year olds. There isn't enough detail about the actual data to evaluate it (it's an agenda-driven article anyway).
    You're quite right that it does not go into enough detail to be decisive, but as it matches my own experience with kids, both cycling and football playing - as well as others' - and is in line with what danish autorities reccommend, I think it is safe to say that most of the material we're able to find, points accumulatively in the same direction.

  21. #46
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    As a 14 year old, I think around 13 is a more appropriate age to ride on the street, at least for an average kid. After being hit while riding down the sidewalk, on the wrong side of the road, it was a wake up call. Now, I am very careful, and have avoided many close calls since I started riding in the street. Just a couple weeks ago, a car, after blowing the horn, veered into the bike lane, (one of few in the city), and ran my friend and I into the curb. I can't really see my 12 year old sister knowing how to react in a situation like that.

  22. #47
    Senior Member EsoxLucius's Avatar
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    It is obvious that the conditions faced by bicyclists on our cities' roadways has changed a lot in 50 years. By age 10 I was riding my bike all around a city of 150,000+ which didn't involve getting on any multi-lane facility or speed limits faster than 35 mph. By now we have eliminated the grid pattern, widened streets and turning radii, forced most of the traffic onto thoroughfares/arterials, and increased speed limits. I can see why people are now concerned with even letting a 13 year old travel throughout a city on a bike.

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