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  1. #26
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    It is NOT a bike lane..

    How do I know?

    Easy....

    I asked what area it was. She gave me the exact google map.. I looked at all the streets in the surrounding area, the (cross) street leading up to it has a bike lane clearly marked. Once you turn onto that road, there is no sign marking it as a bike lane and nowhere on that entire road is a bike lane marking on that "shoulder pavement" area...

    Since neither a bike lane sign nor marking is on that road, it is a paved shoulder with an attached "curb".
    So they were riding correctly or at the very least, legally.
    (I know "Keri's group" would say that if a car would like to pass, the car should just change lanes (or lane split) as the cyclists have full legal usage of that lane/road and will continue to "take the lane" and not change lane position (which they are more than in the "right" to do), however, if a cyclist wanted to pass, they would then move over to the right and allow a cyclist to pass more easily without having to "lane split")

    P.S. Here is the map co-ords, so you can see for yourself..

    http://g.co/maps/gfxhj
    Last edited by SpecialX; 05-06-12 at 02:30 AM.

  2. #27
    Cycle Year Round CB HI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpecialX View Post
    It is NOT a bike lane..


    http://g.co/maps/gfxhj
    But now you have gone and spoiled Bek's pointless attacks.
    Land of the Free, Because of the Brave.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    one needs look no further than the originator of that photo, Keri Caffery and her blog for the explanation.... it's tragic that such aggrandizing road behavior as pictured in the above photo prompted state legislators to censure bicyclists with a MBL law, but its very clear the riders most outspoken about their lane position were directly responsible for the legal censure.



    It's apparantly a morass of their own devising. its a shame aggrandizing club cyclists have made quite the mess for the rest of florida cyclists.


    Keri Caffery's blog on why florida cyclists got the MBL law

    I read Caffery's Commute Orlando article 'why-were-facing-a-mandatory-bike-lane-law' though I didn't read the transcript of the Florida Legislator being interviewed. I take it that Florida's bike lane law was a legislative action and not a vote put before the public. A possible common problem, is that many people living in states with bike lanes and bike lane laws may not particularly understand the type of need people traveling by bike have for bike lanes, or circumstances under which bike lanes are usable and not usable for bike travel. The general public might understand these things better if circumstances associated with bike lane use were presented over a period of months leading up to an election, rather than simply handing that thinking process and decision over to the legislators.

    Re; photo of the group of cyclists in my earlier post: traffic situation shown in the scene depicted does not seem particularly similar to that referred to by a lawmaker as quoted in an interview excerpt included in the Keri Caffery blog article: "... “along A1A they were having some challenges with cyclists who were choosing not to ride in that lane and causing backups and traffic. ...".

    As seen in the photo, there's two lanes of same direction travel, plus a road shoulder, and traffic is light with just a few motor vehicles visible in the entire picture. There is no traffic backed up. In that kind of situation, if traffic were backed up, assuming the shoulder was as clean and hazard free as that seen in the picture, the logical and reasonable thing for the group of people on bikes to do would probably be to fall into single file and either ride the space on the road between solid white line and curb, or barring this, far right as possible.

    Out here in Oregon, it's not uncommon to hear comments from people expressing their not understanding why someone riding a bike on the road wouldn't be riding in the bike lane when one may be right next to where they're riding. I don't think their lack of understanding is necessarily resentment of bike's presence on the road. Rather, it's just a simple result of their not understanding the conditions required for riding and also, different types of riding.
    Last edited by wsbob; 05-06-12 at 01:58 AM.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by wsbob View Post
    As seen in the photo, there's two lanes of same direction travel, plus a road shoulder, and traffic is light with just a few motor vehicles visible in the entire picture. There is no traffic backed up. In that kind of situation, if traffic were backed up, assuming the shoulder was as clean and hazard free as that seen in the picture, the logical and reasonable thing for the group of people on bikes to do would probably be to fall into single file and either ride the space on the road between solid white line and curb, or barring this, far right as possible.
    Now, I'm sorta gonna play "Devil on one shoulder, Angel on the other" here....

    There are people that would say moving over into that paved shoulder and going single file is just being "subservient" and since the law allows them to ride (in their minds) AFRAP on the roadway (either single file or doubled up) then they're gonna "show those people in their cars" that they have the "power".

    There are some people that would say, your idea is a good idea.

    There are those that would argue both points (and every other in between), ad nauseam..

    There's a lot of "far right wing" and "far left wing" extremists in the bicycle world, each with their valid points, the best bet in my opinion, is to take the "best idea of both worlds", and just do what's safest in your mind and also be as courteous as you can be to others..

    In the referenced example we've been discussing, if I was a lone rider and the paved shoulder is/was clear of major debris, I would use it, as it would be the safest way, in MY MIND, to ride on that particular patch of roadway.

    I'm sure the cyclists that use that road are fully well aware if that paved shoulder is safe ["practicable"] to use or not.
    If it is clear of debris, the choice of whether they use it or not, is dependent on their own ideas of safety and other factors.

    (And there inlies the "conflict" between cyclists and cars (and other cyclist's thoughts on the matter)).
    Last edited by SpecialX; 05-06-12 at 02:35 AM.

  5. #30
    Cycle Year Round CB HI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpecialX View Post
    There are people that would say moving over into that paved shoulder and going single file is just being "subservient" and since the law allows them to ride (in their minds) AFRAP on the roadway (either single file or doubled up) then they're gonna "show those people in their cars" that they have the "power".
    I do not know any VC cyclist that say or think that. I know many motorist and guys like Bek that claim that is the point of view, simply to deride VC cyclist.

    It has been my experience that if traffic is backed up on a four lane roadway, it is not due to cyclist, it is due to too many motorist. Too bad the motorist refuse to clear even one lane of the road so we cyclist can make better time on our rush hour commutes.
    Land of the Free, Because of the Brave.

  6. #31
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpecialX View Post
    It is NOT a bike lane..

    How do I know?

    Easy....

    I asked what area it was. She gave me the exact google map..
    .....Since neither a bike lane sign nor marking is on that road, it is a paved shoulder with an attached "curb".
    So they were riding correctly or at the very least, legally.
    well, fair nough. Her blogpost content, context and photo title made it misleading.

    However, your position cyclists need not consider that part of the roadway appears to be incorrect. Counter to your position riders don't have to ride there, The Florida bicycle Association -you're familiar with them? - they helped develop the Floride Bicycle Law Tookit for Law Enforcement

    does not consider that a shoulder but part of the roadway, however, and suggests riders have a duty to consider that pavement ribbon as part of the roadway when considering where to ride.

    Quote Originally Posted by FBA
    unmarked ribbons on curb and gutter roadways should be treated as part of the roadway
    and

    Quote Originally Posted by FBA
    For the purpose of the laws, the ribbon you describe is simply part of the roadway since a curb is present, and if required to keep right under the circumstances, cyclists would be required to remain there, as close as is practicable to the rightmost curb or edge of the roadway. If the “ribbon” is four -five feet wide, there is probably room to safely share the roadway.
    I think Keri's group is pushing their road rights to some extent, and you and her are both misinterpreting Florida law.

    the pavement-ribbon is not a shoulder but part of the roadway
    Last edited by Bekologist; 05-06-12 at 07:02 AM.
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  7. #32
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wsbob View Post

    Out here in Oregon, it's not uncommon to hear comments from people expressing their not understanding why someone riding a bike on the road wouldn't be riding in the bike lane when one may be right next to where they're riding. I don't think their lack of understanding is necessarily resentment of bike's presence on the road. Rather, it's just a simple result of their not understanding the conditions required for riding and also, different types of riding.
    I agree the public doesn't understand why bicyclists choose the road positions they do when they see riders avoiding the right, a shoulder, or a bikelane.

    I think this lack of understanding is endemic to contemporary road use. I'm not sure there is a ready solution. Since the bikelane regs are now intwined with florida cyclists right to choose a safe road position, it's difficult to see a ready fix.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    It's funny, behaviors like this double file paceline riding while avoiding the bikelane is what got florida cyclists the mandatory bike lane law in the first place.
    You seem more pleased that some 'lane hogs' got their come-uppance than appalled that some politician would use this as 'evidence' against cyclists...and get away with it.

  9. #34
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pedaleur View Post
    You seem more pleased that some 'lane hogs' got their come-uppance than appalled that some politician would use this as 'evidence' against cyclists...and get away with it.
    no, i think mandatory bikelane laws are counterproductive to cyclists acceptance on the roads.
    what is truly unfortunate is that club riding behavior is what spurred all florida cyclists to be proscribed to a mandatory bikelane rule. Some club and group riding behavior surpasses the insouciance of critical mass rides. a critical mess of spandex CAT 6.


    I've lived in florida, and care about riding conditions there. I'd love to see more seniors on trikes getting to and fro in Florida, more kids on bikes riding to school, more people riding for transport and fun on florida roadways.

    A mandatory bike lane law is unfortunately misinterpreted by citizens of florida negatively towards bicyclists. the new, minor changes to the law won't change public perception of cyclists avoiding bikelanes.

    the current legal situation for bicyclists was a tragic backfire on the part of club riders exercising what they thought were their 'road rights' as specialx characterized it

    Quote Originally Posted by specialx
    ...and since the law allows them to ride (in their minds) AFRAP on the roadway (either single file or doubled up) then they're gonna "show those people in their cars" that they have the "power".
    Last edited by Bekologist; 05-06-12 at 07:52 AM.
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  10. #35
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    This is wrong. FL statutes specifically state that a shoulder is not considered part of the roadway.

    Title XXIII
    MOTOR VEHICLES
    Chapter 316
    STATE UNIFORM TRAFFIC CONTROL
    316.003 Definitions.—The following words and phrases, when used in this chapter, shall have the meanings respectively ascribed to them in this section, except where the context otherwise requires:
    (42) ROADWAY.—That portion of a highway improved, designed, or ordinarily used for vehicular travel, exclusive of the berm or shoulder. In the event a highway includes two or more separate roadways, the term “roadway” as used herein refers to any such roadway separately, but not to all such roadways collectively.
    [bold mine]

    Note that this definition does not specify whether the shoulder be paved or not, so includes all shoulders. The fact that there is a curb present is irrelevant since the curb is on the outer edge of the shoulder and the edge of the roadway is the white line to the left of that.

    The MBL law in FL specifically states that the BL must be "marked for bicycle use" in order for that requirement to apply. If it's not marked - it's not a BL.

    316.2065 Bicycle regulations.—
    (5)(a) Any person operating a bicycle upon a roadway at less than the normal speed of traffic at the time and place and under the conditions then existing shall ride in the lane marked for bicycle use or, if no lane is marked for bicycle use, as close as practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway except under any of the following situations: ...
    [bold mine]

    There is no law that requires cyclists to use a paved shoulder. Likewise, there is no law that specifically restricts cyclists from paved shoulders as there is for motor vehicles. So, under the law, whether or not a cyclist desires to use and does or does not actually use a paved shoulder is strictly up to the individual.

    Also it is important to remember that all of the exceptions to the requirement to ride FRAP, apply and have always applied to the MBL law. All the update to this law does is specify the exceptions to the MBL law more clearly.
    Last edited by CommuterRun; 05-06-12 at 01:39 PM.

  11. #36
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    its not a shoulder when there's a curb, commuterrun..... explained by both me and the Florida bicycle association......

    and I think you bolded the wrong section of the law, there, commuterrun....

    Quote Originally Posted by commuterrun
    as close as practicable to the right-hand curb
    is the section that would apply, not edge of the roadway.

    the florida bicycle association and drafters of the florida bicycle guide for law enforcement are calling it accurately and as it is..... riders need consider the curb ribbons part of the roadway when considering when and how to share the road.....

    Quote Originally Posted by florida bicycle association
    unmarked ribbons on curb and gutter roadways should be treated as part of the roadway



    For the purpose of the laws, the ribbon.... is simply part of the roadway since a curb is present, and if required to keep right under the circumstances, cyclists would be required to remain there, as close as is practicable to the rightmost curb or edge of the roadway. If the “ribbon” is four -five feet wide, there is probably room to safely share the roadway.


    there seems to be a major disconnect between the florida bicycle association and keri cafferys instructions on bicycle use along roads with edge ribbons - not shoulders - despite her involvement with the FBA.... there is an obvious instructional error on Keri's part.

    Is keri a politicized 'breakaway' rider, perhaps, publicly upset with bikelanes on florida roads, with the intent to encourage misguided critical messes of club cyclists to negatively affect cycling advocacy in Florida?
    Last edited by Bekologist; 05-06-12 at 02:26 PM.
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  12. #37
    Senior Member PatrickGSR94's Avatar
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    heh I guess Memphis doesn't have these sorts of laws. I went on a group ride last night, sort of a "social" ride of just folks having fun, and we took up pretty much the whole lane and had no issues. Of course this was mostly on main roads with 4 or more lanes. Only had one car passing the whole group while honking incessantly. Other than that it was a blast to ride with a group.
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  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    its not a shoulder when there's a curb, commuterrun..... explained by both me and the Florida bicycle association......

    and I think you bolded the wrong section of the law, there, commuterrun....

    is the section that would apply, not edge of the roadway.
    You are wrong again, Bek. The legally defined edge of the roadway is the white line. The pavement outside of that is the shoulder. The fact that there happens to be a curb on the outside edge of the shoulder is irrelevant. The law you refer to that refers to riding "as close as practicable to the right-hand curb" is for roads in which the curb is at the edge of the roadway. People like you are why laws have to be reworded and clarified.

    As for terms like "ribbons", "unmarked ribbons", "curb ribbons", etc.: they have no legal definition whatsoever. None at all. Not found anywhere in the FL Statutes. If it is marked as a BL, then it's a BL. If it's not marked as a BL, and falls outside the legal definition of "Roadway", then it's not a BL and is a paved shoulder. A cyclist may choose to ride a paved shoulder or not. There is no legal requirement either way on that. The FBA can recommend that a cyclist take this road position all they want; that in no way makes it a legal requirement.

    As for your personal position on this; I don't really care except that, from a legal standpoint, you're wrong.

  14. #39
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    I'm going to have to side with conventions of road design and the florida bicycle association on this one.

    when there's a curb, it's not a 'shoulder'.

    curb or edge of the roadway when there's not curb. florida law is pretty clear.

    its all about safe, practicable use of the public roads. encouraging clubs of cyclists to misinterpret the laws and chafe the motorists and encourage the legislators to pass a mandatory bikelane law seems truly a tragic backfire on the part of club cyclists perhaps a bit too intent to believe what Keri and her ilk are recommending as correct riding techniques by clubs of florida cyclists.

    its too bad the solitary riders and canoe haulers alike now have to deal with a florida public that will have heard 'there's a mandatory bikelane law in florida' as a result of aggrandizing clubs of cyclists, isn't it?
    Last edited by Bekologist; 05-06-12 at 03:11 PM.
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  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    curb or edge of the roadway when there's not curb. florida law is pretty clear.
    Yes, Florida law is pretty clear, and it's pretty clear you're not reading the law.

    316-2065(5)(a) Any person operating a bicycle upon a roadway at less than the normal speed of traffic at the time and place and under the conditions then existing shall ride in the lane marked for bicycle use or, if no lane is marked for bicycle use, as close as practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway except under any of the following situations:

    1. When overtaking and passing another bicycle or vehicle proceeding in the same direction.
    2. When preparing for a left turn at an intersection or into a private road or driveway.
    3. When reasonably necessary to avoid any condition or potential conflict, including, but not limited to, a fixed or moving object, parked or moving vehicle, bicycle, pedestrian, animal, surface hazard, turn lane, or substandard-width lane, which that makes it unsafe to continue along the right-hand curb or edge or within a bicycle lane. For the purposes of this subsection, a “substandard-width lane” is a lane that is too narrow for a bicycle and another vehicle to travel safely side by side within the lane.

    (b) Any person operating a bicycle upon a one-way highway with two or more marked traffic lanes may ride as near the left-hand curb or edge of such roadway as practicable.
    A law that is specifying how bicycles are to operate on a roadway can't specify that bicycles should operate on a roadway by operating off the roadway unless it specifically says so. It doesn't.

    Florida traffic law, definitions:

    (42) ROADWAY.—That portion of a highway improved, designed, or ordinarily used for vehicular travel, exclusive of the berm or shoulder. In the event a highway includes two or more separate roadways, the term “roadway” as used herein refers to any such roadway separately, but not to all such roadways collectively.
    You're making stuff up. Where are you getting this 'when there's a curb, it's not a 'shoulder''? From your own imagination. The area to between that white line and the curb, in your mind, is...what? Another travel lane?
    Last edited by benjdm; 05-06-12 at 05:34 PM. Reason: Add numbering for FRAP law

  16. #41
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    the definitions of 'vehicle' in florida law includes bicycles. a space intended for bicyclists placed as an undesignated bikelane adjacent to a curb is intended for 'vehicular' (bicycle) travel, and would be considered part of the roadway under the florida rules of the road. it's not just motor vehicles that are vehicles.

    did you also read what the florida bicycle association had to say about the matter? how about the florida bicycle law enforcement guide?

    the presence of a curb means it's not a shoulder from the FBA/

    I'm not 'making stuff up.' rather, i am using both common sense and looking at other interpretations as well as the clear intent of florida traffic law to clarify how the laws are meant to be interpreted in florida.

    did you also miss the provision in florida law you quoted that states "right hand' or 'edge of the roadway'? two separate conditions. and, to the dismay of bicycle drivers, doesn't mean the law leaves a choice for the bicyclist other than reasonable positioning away from the curb or edge of the roadway when there are flush shoulders.

    the florida bicycle law enforcement guide also differentiates between 'curbed roads' and roads with shoulders, and clarifies riders' duties.

    the florida bicycle association also clarifies that the section between a lane and the curb is not a shoulder.

    the section between a lane line and a curb is still part of the roadway. they previously had been intended for vehicular use by bicyclists as 'undesignated bicycle lanes' prior to 2007.

    the current florida 'green book' design manual includes shoulders in their definition of the roadway. and repeatedly refers to either curbed roads or roads with shoulders. it also recommends the minimum widths of shoulders as 8 feet. a four foot swath of road intended for bicycle use (albeit not a designated bikelane, a portion of the roadway) on a curbed road is NOT a 'shoulder' in florida.

    This is basic, common sense stuff about traffic law. too bad the intent of florida traffic laws got so misinterpreted by florida club cyclists they brought down a mandatory bikelane law onto all florida cyclists.

    the issues of this are clear, or should be, when considering the new, minor changes in florida traffic laws- cyclists DO have to consider this space



    to the right of Keri's group a portion of the road they need consider when deciding 'how far away from the curb is as far right as practicable?' when determining their lateral lane position.

    groups of cyclists ignoring this portion of the road under mistaken beliefs its not part of the roadway are misinterpreting the law.

    Keri Caffery is publicly opposed to roadway bike lanes in florida. I suspect her flagrant misdirect on the law and poor advice on riding position is intended to stall bicycle lane implementation in florida. this type of 'in your face' riding and ignoring safe space to cyclists right curries no favor among the rest of the road using public.
    Last edited by Bekologist; 05-06-12 at 06:33 PM.
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  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    did you also read what the florida bicycle association had to say about the matter? how about the florida bicycle law enforcement guide?

    the presence of a curb means it's not a shoulder from the FBA/



    I'm not 'making stuff up.'
    Fine. You're referring to someone else who is making stuff up.

    For the purpose of the laws, the ribbon you describe is simply part of the roadway since a curb is present
    Where is this coming from? Where is it found in the law?

    the florida bicycle law enforcement guide also differentiates between 'curbed roads' and roads with shoulders, and clarifies riders' duties.
    Reading the Florida Bicycle Law Enforcement Guide...it calls the area between the curb and the white stripe a 'gutter' and says that bicyclists don't have to ride there. Pages 18 and 19.

    Roads with curbs: the gutter is not part of the “roadway,” i.e., not “ordinarily used for vehicular travel"
    [316.003(42)]. Cyclists need to keep clear of the gutter
    area; pavement joints, drain grates or debris can cause
    steering difficulties or damage. On lower-speed curbed
    streets, parallel parking of vehicles adjacent to the curb
    is commonly allowed.

    A cyclist riding past a parallel-parked car should
    maintain clearance of 4 feet to avoid risk of collision with an opening driver-side door.


    Roads with flush shoulders: where no bicycle lane
    is marked, a white edge line is typically marked to
    indicate the edge of the roadway; any pavement to the
    right of the edge line is shoulder pavement, not a bicy-
    cle lane unless it is marked with the bicycle lane symbol.
    Since the definition of "roadway" excludes shoulders,
    cyclists are not required to ride on paved shoulders that
    are not marked as bicycle lanes, although they may
    prefer to do so. A cyclist who rides on a paved shoulder
    typically needs to maintain 2 feet of clearance from the
    pavement edge. The cyclist should still travel on the right
    because (1) this reduces crash risk at intersections and
    driveways (drivers don’t expect traffic on shoulders to
    approach from the “wrong” direction) and (2) whenever
    the cyclist enters the roadway (e.g., to pass a pedestrian
    or other cyclist, cross an intersection, keep clear of a
    vehicle approaching to enter the roadway at a driveway,
    avoid debris or obstructions, etc.), right-side operation
    becomes mandatory.
    See the bit about "Cyclists need to keep clear of the gutter area"? From the reference you just cited? Along with the "cyclists are not required to ride on paved shoulders"?

    the current florida 'green book' design manual includes shoulders in their definition of the roadway.
    When people start getting cited for moving violations of the 'green book' design manual then you will have a point. Until the law gets changed, it stands as is.
    Last edited by benjdm; 05-06-12 at 06:56 PM.

  18. #43
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    a previously undesignated bicycle travel lane is assuredly considered part of the roadway when there's an adjacent curb, benj, under florida traffic law definitions, and every other considered interpretation of traffic law coming out of florida.

    The section of roadway to the BObikes crewe right is assuredly part of the roadway.



    the 'gutter' is the pale white pavement contiguous with the curb in the photo. cyclists don't have to, never had to, ride in the gutter.

    Obstinate refusal to follow the letter and the spirit of the law on the part of clubs of cyclists in florida, exhibiting behavior as exemplified in the picture, is what brought down the mandatory bikelane law in florida in the first place. its a shame a small minority of cyclist ruined it for the rest of florida cyclists.

    the minor changes in bike law in florida aren't going to make that type of group positioning any more legal, or any more acceptable, on florida roads.

    clubs of cyclists that think the positioning of the bobikes crewe is the correct interpretation of current or new changes to florida bike law are riding blind to their duties and responsibilities.
    Last edited by Bekologist; 05-06-12 at 07:16 PM.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    a previously undesignated bicycle travel lane is assuredly considered part of the roadway when there's an adjacent curb, benj, under florida traffic law definitions
    “That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” - Christopher Hitchens

    Until you cite the relevant florida traffic law definitions, you are asserting without evidence. Not Geo's opinion, not 'green manual' design manuals, but florida traffic law definitions.

  20. #45
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    I've brought a fair bit of supporting evidence into the discussion. The traffic regulation itself "curb or edge of roadway", the Florida Bicycle Association, the florida bicycle guidebook for law enforcement, florida roadway design standards.

    BTW, Florida's traffic law definitions (which lynchpin your position) are not inclusive.... the florida traffic definitions don't even define bikelane, gutter, curb, or shoulder.... wow, does this mean florida bikelanes, curbs, gutters or shoulders actually don't exist. benjdm?

    maybe bike lanes don't even exist in florida!!! Digital cowboy, benjdm has pointed out florida bike lanes actually don't exist, you're all off the hook on this mandatory bikelane business!


    again, benjdm... what you might think of as a shoulder has previously been characterized in florida as an 'undesignated bikelane', designed and intended for bicycle (vehicular) travel, and therefore considered part of the 'roadway'. the space to the right of keri's group is not a 'shoulder' it is part of the roadway. it has a curb. it doesn't meet FDOT minimum specifications for a shoulder, it had been space allocated on the road for bike traffic (vehicles) and would be considered under the sparse FL traffic defintions part of the space intended for vehicular (bicycle) traffic.

    clear yet?

    everything in florida traffic law, bicycle regulation and road design points to that space as part of the road. the florida Bicycle advocacy group tasked with educating law enforcement about bicycle law considers that part of the road.

    misinterpreting the law to suggest riders need not consider this space as part of the roadway when then ask themselves 'where is as far right as practicable?' is what got florida bicyclists into this mess of a mandatory bikelane law in the first place!

    what is it with the hard core, politicized vehicular cyclists and their ardent misinterpretations of traffic laws? You folks are cycling advocacy's worst enemies, honestly.

    "Lets ride this way" BAM mandatory bikelane law, only the seventh in the nation.
    Yikes. Maybe its time for Keri and her crewe to take up golf instead?
    Last edited by Bekologist; 05-06-12 at 09:10 PM.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  21. #46
    Cycle Year Round CB HI's Avatar
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    Bek will endlessly argue in favor of any position which diminishes cyclist rights, no matter how wrong he is or how many times he is proven wrong.
    Land of the Free, Because of the Brave.

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    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    someone has 'proved' something?

    you mean, the "proof" offered that bike lanes don't even exist in florida as they aren't in the definitions, don't you?

    I think it's downright lousy what club riders begat the rest of florida cyclists. "Bicycle rights" riding totally backfired.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    someone has 'proved' something?

    you mean, the "proof" offered that bike lanes don't even exist in florida as they aren't in the definitions, don't you?

    I think it's downright lousy what club riders begat the rest of florida cyclists. "Bicycle rights" riding totally backfired.
    In thread after thread, you have expressed your extreme interpretations of FRAP, slow moving vehicle laws, bike lane laws and your unfounded hate for group cyclist. Only one or two of the extreme fringe share your view. Your incessant repetition will not alter the view of the more reasoned cyclist here.

    Did you go on a club ride or something and they just ignored your constant demands to get out of the motorist lane?
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    Quote Originally Posted by CB HI View Post
    I do not see it as a repeal of MBL law. You still have to prove why you left the bike lane if a cop stops you or you are in a collision.
    The sad thing is that out of all of the road users that cyclists are the only ones who have to explain and justify why they're riding where they are riding. Even a full repeal of the law sadly isn't going to change that.

    Quote Originally Posted by CommuterRun View Post
    Well, these are good changes to clarify actions that cyclists are already legally allowed to take. But it's not a repeal of a ridiculous law that should have never been passed.
    Yes, they are. I never said that it was a full repeal of a ridiculous law, I was quoting the article when I said that it was "effectively a repeal of the law."

    It is a good start, and hopefully now that we have gotten this small victory, the advocacy groups will use it to get the MBL repealed entirely.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cbhi
    ....the more reasoned cyclist....

    when you're talking about the more reasoned cyclists, you mean the Florida Bicycle Association - the group tasked with developing the bicycle guidebook for law enforcement in Forida- don't you?

    florida bicycle association on cyclist lane position
    Last edited by Bekologist; 05-06-12 at 09:53 PM.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

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