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  1. #76
    Senior Member Digital_Cowboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scooper View Post
    At the D.A.'s press conference yesterday, two significant facts came out that had previously been the subject of speculation:

    1. The rider who was accompanying Bucchere on the ride back to San Francisco from the Marin headlands stopped safely before entering the Castro/Market intersection, while Bucchere continued through the intersection at speed with his head down, apparently making no effort to slow or stop.

    "District Attorney George Gascón said Thursday that Bucchere was racing on an informal course that began in the Marin Headlands. A co-rider stopped at the intersection as the light changed, but Bucchere blew through that light as well as previous red lights and stop signs, said Gascón."

    2. Multiple witnesses said Sutchi Hui had a green walk light before stepping into the crosswalk at the intersection just before being struck by Bucchere.

    "Witnesses reported that Bucchere, who was riding south on Castro Street, struck Hui as he walked east in a crosswalk with a green light at the time of the collision. Hui died at a hospital on April 2."
    This new information does change things. Thank you for it. But I still do not know that even with this new information that I would be able to find the cyclist guilty of felony vehicular manslaughter. Speeding, reckless driving, yes, felony vehicular manslaughter, I don't think that I would be able to find him guilty on that charge.

    Particularly in light of the fact that so many motorists in a similar circumstance are not themselves charged with felony vehicular manslaughter or have any charge filed against them.
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  2. #77
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    As we previously reported, the problem wasn't that Bucchere ran a red light. Prosecutors believe the light was yellow when he rode into the intersection heading south on Castro.


    Since the cyclist apparently entered the intersection legally, it is the now-dead pedestrian who violated his right-of-way. I just don't understand how a felony conviction can be forthcoming for legally entering an intersection and striking a person who is there illegally. Sure, there's evidence he was speeding and is an asshat, but that's not the same as being a criminal. I would like to have speeding be a felony, but if we're going to go there I think we need to do it legislatively.

    Oh well. Since any jury will be pretty unsympathetic to this defendant, he is probably going down. On the bright side, there may now be some pressure on the D.A. to begin prosecuting some of the scofflaw motorists, which would make the roadways safer (in my opinion).

  3. #78
    Senior Member Big Lebowski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by B. Carfree View Post
    Since any jury will be pretty unsympathetic to this defendant, he is probably going down.
    Yes, he probably will and he will deserve whatever he gets. I forget the quote from "A Few Good Men", but someone needs to be blamed for the death. So, unless the 71 year-old that was in a crosswalk when he got a signal ran into the middle of the street, the cyclist is to blame. You guys can discuss the law all day long, but I can't see a jury letting this go unpunished.

  4. #79
    Senior Member Chicago Al's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Cowboy View Post
    [1.] I am relying on what (I believe it was) CB HI has said in regards to what is and isn't admissible.

    [2.] Given that presumably the cyclist hasn't been convicted of the earlier in the day reckless behavior how does it make any sense that it would be admissible in court?

    [3.] Is it also not possible that after possibly receiving negative responses to the plea deal offered to the last cyclist involved in a fatal crash with a pedestrian that they are intending to make an example out of the cyclist in this case?
    1. I asked what your legal training or experience was that made you so confident and definite in your many, many statements here, in this thead and the earlier one about this same incident. Finding that your legal authority is Some Guy on an Internet Forum does not inspire confidence.

    2. The perpetrator was apparently seen by witnesses blowing through lights shortly before this incident. It's like saying you observed the guys wearing masks approaching the bank. I'm not a lawyer (neither are you evidently) so I'll just say that sounds pretty darn relevant and immediate to me. Why would that not be admissible?

    3. Yes it is possible, however the facts that come out in court will be the same whatever that intent. It's also possible that this is a different case with different circumstances. Particularly, there was remorse shown by the cyclist in the earlier case vs. in this case, the perpetrator apparently trying to cover his tracks with a bogus story about what happened. (And in the earlier case the cyclist pled guilty.)

    BTW, 'I hope he's okay' as the perp apparently posted in reference to the victim is not a statement of remorse. Quite the opposite.
    Last edited by Chicago Al; 06-15-12 at 09:55 PM.
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  5. #80
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    His behavior (speeding, blowing red lights and stop signs) just before the accident is relevant because it demonstrates his recklessness and callous disregard of the laws and the safety of others at the time.
    His prior behavior could be relevant if there was some dispute whether he entered the intersection legally or not. In the absence of evidence that he ran this specific red light, prosecution might try to use evidence of previously-run red lights to demonstrate a pattern of behavior.

    If the DA believes that the light was yellow (as earlier comments claimed), it is irrelevant whether he was running red lights, evading paying taxes, or beating his wife.

  6. #81
    Decrepit Member Scooper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hamster View Post
    His prior behavior could be relevant if there was some dispute whether he entered the intersection legally or not. In the absence of evidence that he ran this specific red light, prosecution might try to use evidence of previously-run red lights to demonstrate a pattern of behavior.

    If the DA believes that the light was yellow (as earlier comments claimed), it is irrelevant whether he was running red lights, evading paying taxes, or beating his wife.
    I don't think the D.A. can prove Bucchere ran a red light, so he is saying he'll take Bucchere's word for it that the light was yellow. However, the timing of the light is such that the pedestrian could not have had a WALK light (as witnesses have stated he had) if the light was yellow when Bucchere crossed the intersection threshold as he contends. I think the D.A. is simply unwilling to state conclusively that Bucchere ran a red light, and instead will explain the light timing at the intersection and let jurors reach their own conclusions.
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  7. #82
    Senior Member Chicago Al's Avatar
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    Some people seem to think that the presence of a yellow light and the 'right of way' amount to a get out of jail free card for the perpetrator here.

    But it's not so, there's no exemption from 'duty of care' to avoid a collision. (And, really, if a couple of 'boy racer' motorists were racing in a busy area like this, one jumped through a stale yellow light and hit a cyclist, would you be looking for excuses for him?)



    From http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/di...le=21949-21971

    >>21950. (a) The driver of a vehicle shall yield the right-of-way to a pedestrian crossing the roadway within any marked crosswalk or within any unmarked crosswalk at an intersection, except as otherwise provided in this chapter. (b) This section does not relieve a pedestrian from the duty of using due care for his or her safety. No pedestrian may suddenly leave a curb or other place of safety and walk or run into the path of a vehicle that is so close as to constitute an immediate hazard. No pedestrian may unnecessarily stop or delay traffic while in a marked or unmarked crosswalk. (c) The driver of a vehicle approaching a pedestrian within any marked or unmarked crosswalk shall exercise all due care and shall reduce the speed of the vehicle or take any other action relating to the operation of the vehicle as necessary to safeguard the safety of the pedestrian. (d) Subdivision (b) does not relieve a driver of a vehicle from the duty of exercising due care for the safety of any pedestrian within any marked crosswalk or within any unmarked crosswalk at an intersection.<<
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  8. #83
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    I wouldn't say he entered the intersection legally.
    If the light turns yellow-you are supposed to stop if you can.
    The other rider stopped-therefore the "bad cyclist" should have been able to stop.
    That is how the DA and the jury will see it.

    Of course he is being overcharged-trying to scare him into a plea-typical DA technique.

    And he is being heavily charged for the same reasons Zimmerman is being overcharged
    1)Someone died
    2)Lotta publicity-so GOV "has" to act
    3) EXTREMELY UNSYMPATHETIC PERP!- Like the Zimmerman-Martin case-Zimmerman "was" a 250 lb Germanic White man who without provocation shot a tiny unarmed black child- now he has morphed into a Hispanic Jewish pudgy wanna be cop who was getting beaten like a drum by a 6'3" man-Our bike perp hasn't morphed into anything- he is a fool who was reckless- not murderous- he is unsympathetic-foolish- reckless- but not murderous evil-this was dumb- not mean

    He is going to pay the price for all riders who have pissed off car drivers and peds in CA
    CA has plenty of ill will toward bike riders!!

  9. #84
    Senior Member Digital_Cowboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Lebowski View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by B. Carfree
    Since any jury will be pretty unsympathetic to this defendant, he is probably going down.
    Yes, he probably will and he will deserve whatever he gets. I forget the quote from "A Few Good Men", but someone needs to be blamed for the death. So, unless the 71 year-old that was in a crosswalk when he got a signal ran into the middle of the street, the cyclist is to blame. You guys can discuss the law all day long, but I can't see a jury letting this go unpunished.
    Yes, he deserves to be punished for what he did, but let's make sure that he is punished for the correct crime. Is that too much to ask?

    Let's not try him for what someone else did and "got away with." Also let's change the situation slightly. And instead of the individual having been riding a bicycle. Let's say that he was driving a car, would he be facing the same backlash?

    Based on all the cases that we have seen posted here as well as our various local/national media outlets. I think that we all know that he wouldn't.

    Pointing back to the other case in which another cyclist struck a pedestrian who ultimately passed from their injuries. There are some big differences between the two cases.

    a) that cyclist was able to render aid to their victim
    b) in this case the cyclist was also injured and rendered unconscious
    c) unconscious people cannot render aid
    ...1) despite what Squirt Dad feels (admittedly based on what it has been alleged that the cyclist posted) being knocked unconscious is signs of having been seriously injured
    d) it's been alleged that the cyclist in question made a post or posts shortly after being released from the hospital
    ...1) posts that along with the actions of the cyclist in question that some are using as a basis for the claim that he was in a "depraved, reckless manner with little to no regard for human life"
    ...2) have those posts been verified as actually having come from the cyclist in question? I'm sure that we all know that it is possible for one person to post to any number of sites pretending to be another person. Many sites only require one to fill out a form to post, and do not verify the information used to identify the person doing the posting. Also many people when required to set up an account (such as at this site) do not use a very strong password. So how do we know that the cyclist made those posts? Which is why if I am not mistaken the DA isn't going to be using those posts as evidence when this goes to court.
    e) is the DA's office not only in this case but around the country prepared to start filing felony vehicular manslaughter charges against EVERY motorist who strikes and kills either a cyclist or pedestrian? If not then why are they doing so in this case?
    f) it's been alleged that the cyclist was speeding by traveling in excess of 25MPH, how many motorists when traveling on that particular road do the speed limit?
    g) unless there are extenuating circumstances such as in the case of the "good doctor" from LA or Carlos (who has yet to go to trial) in Miami rarely are any charges brought against motorists in similar circumstances

    So, yes, the cyclist in this case needs to be punished, but as I (and others have said) let's make sure that he is punished for what he did that day and that he isn't being punished for the actions of others. Isn't that justice?
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  10. #85
    Senior Member Digital_Cowboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chicago Al View Post
    1. I asked what your legal training or experience was that made you so confident and definite in your many, many statements here, in this thead and the earlier one about this same incident. Finding that your legal authority is Some Guy on an Internet Forum does not inspire confidence.
    CB HI, has in the past demonstrated an understanding of the law that is more than the average layman's.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chicago Al View Post
    2. The perpetrator was apparently seen by witnesses blowing through lights shortly before this incident. It's like saying you observed the guys wearing masks approaching the bank. I'm not a lawyer (neither are you evidently) so I'll just say that sounds pretty darn relevant and immediate to me. Why would that not be admissible?
    How do we know that these "witnesses" do not have a bias against cyclists? We do know that there ARE in fact plenty of people who do in fact hold a bias against cyclists simply because we choose to ride a bicycle instead of driving a car.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chicago Al View Post
    3. Yes it is possible, however the facts that come out in court will be the same whatever that intent. It's also possible that this is a different case with different circumstances. Particularly, there was remorse shown by the cyclist in the earlier case vs. in this case, the perpetrator apparently trying to cover his tracks with a bogus story about what happened. (And in the earlier case the cyclist pled guilty.)
    Given that the cyclist in this case was also injured (yes I know from what has been said in the media that he was released from the hospital the same day) and as a result of his injuries was knocked unconscious. How do we know that if he hadn't been injured and knocked unconscious that he would have made the same statements, if in fact he did make those statements. It is very easy to "spoof" another person's e-mail address, or to post to a web site pretending to be someone else. There are two bicycle related web sites here in Florida that I post to that all one has to do to post is to fill out a form and include a "valid" e-mail address. They do NOT either require the poster to verify nor do they send anything to the address provided. So if I had say your e-mail address I could easily post to either site pretending to be you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chicago Al View Post
    BTW, 'I hope he's okay' as the perp apparently posted in reference to the victim is not a statement of remorse. Quite the opposite.
    How do you figure? Are you saying/suggesting that anytime anyone says that they hope that someone is okay that they're not being remorseful if they were the one's who caused either in whole or part the other person's injures? What (in your opinion) should the cyclist have said that would have shown remorse?
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  11. #86
    Senior Member Digital_Cowboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scooper View Post
    I don't think the D.A. can prove Bucchere ran a red light, so he is saying he'll take Bucchere's word for it that the light was yellow. However, the timing of the light is such that the pedestrian could not have had a WALK light (as witnesses have stated he had) if the light was yellow when Bucchere crossed the intersection threshold as he contends. I think the D.A. is simply unwilling to state conclusively that Bucchere ran a red light, and instead will explain the light timing at the intersection and let jurors reach their own conclusions.
    Has the lights at that intersection been examined to make sure that they were not malfunctioning that day? It is possible that there could have existed a problem of some sort with the lights that caused the pedestrians to have a walk light when they shouldn't have had one. Or given how so many devices are computerized these days it is possible that a hacker got into the traffic control system and reprogrammed the lights at said intersection.

    I am NOT claiming that they were hacked, just that it is a possibility these days, likewise it is possible that they were malfunctioning on the day in question.

    So again, I ask has anyone checked the lights to see if they were functioning properly on the day in question?
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  12. #87
    Senior Member Digital_Cowboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phoebeisis View Post
    I wouldn't say he entered the intersection legally.
    If the light turns yellow-you are supposed to stop if you can.
    The other rider stopped-therefore the "bad cyclist" should have been able to stop.
    That is how the DA and the jury will see it.

    Of course he is being overcharged-trying to scare him into a plea-typical DA technique.

    And he is being heavily charged for the same reasons Zimmerman is being overcharged
    1)Someone died
    2)Lotta publicity-so GOV "has" to act
    3) EXTREMELY UNSYMPATHETIC PERP!- Like the Zimmerman-Martin case-Zimmerman "was" a 250 lb Germanic White man who without provocation shot a tiny unarmed black child- now he has morphed into a Hispanic Jewish pudgy wanna be cop who was getting beaten like a drum by a 6'3" man-Our bike perp hasn't morphed into anything- he is a fool who was reckless- not murderous- he is unsympathetic-foolish- reckless- but not murderous evil-this was dumb- not mean

    He is going to pay the price for all riders who have pissed off car drivers and peds in CA
    CA has plenty of ill will toward bike riders!!
    Agreed, it seems as if the cyclist in this case is paying for the "sins" of all other cyclists who have come before him. And is not being charged with what he might actually be guilty of having done.
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  13. #88
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    Digital_Cowboy
    Right!

    EVERYONE who drives a car has hit the "go pedal" when the light turned yellow-I have. This is more or less what this guy apparently did- he hit the gas instead of the brake trying to "make the light" because he was in a hurry- or wanted to get a good time- or whatever.
    I bet I've done just that 200+ times over 48 years of driving.

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  15. #90
    Senior Member Digital_Cowboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phoebeisis View Post
    Digital_Cowboy
    Right!

    EVERYONE who drives a car has hit the "go pedal" when the light turned yellow-I have. This is more or less what this guy apparently did- he hit the gas instead of the brake trying to "make the light" because he was in a hurry- or wanted to get a good time- or whatever.
    I bet I've done just that 200+ times over 48 years of driving.
    Agreed, and it is probably safe to say that anyone who says that they haven't is lying or doesn't drive, or drive very much.

    As I've (and others have said and not to sound like a broken record) yes he needs to be punished, but let's punish him for the correct crime, and not make him "pay" for the sins of others.

    From the sounds of the article from this link it sounds as if he is "paying" for the sins of all of the other S.F. cyclists. Particularly in light of the D.A.'s admission that normally this would be a misdemeanor.

    It sounds as if he is being used to send a message to the cycling community. And if that is the case then that is not justice. And I would go so far as to call it malicious prosecution.

    What I'd like to know is how many motorists since this crash occurred have struck and injured or killed either a pedestrian or a cyclist, and what if any charges have they had filed against them?

    I had to "laugh" when I read this line:

    "I'm hoping this case serves to raise awareness that rules of the road apply to everyone," Gascon said in a news conference Thursday.

    IF Gascon, truly believes that then as has been said already he (and ALL of the rest of the D.A.s in the nation) need to start filing felony vehicular manslaughter chargers against EVERY motorist who hits and kills either a cyclist or a pedestrian. It also supports (at least to me) that they're primarily going after this cyclist to make an example out of him, and are using him as a scapegoat and that they are NOT really seeking justice.

    As if they were seeking justice then why not file misdemeanor charges?
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  16. #91
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    Bucchere pleads not guilty at today's arraignment.

    http://www.ktvu.com/news/news/crime-...s-death/nPbNS/
    - Stan

  17. #92
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    Do you understand the legal concepts involved here ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Cowboy View Post
    Agreed, it seems as if the cyclist in this case is paying for the "sins" of all other cyclists who have come before him. And is not being charged with what he might actually be guilty of having done.
    Quote Originally Posted by phoebeisis View Post
    Digital_Cowboy
    Right!




    EVERYONE who drives a car has hit the "go pedal" when the light turned yellow-I have. This is more or less what this guy apparently did- he hit the gas instead of the brake trying to "make the light" because he was in a hurry- or wanted to get a good time- or whatever.
    I bet I've done just that 200+ times over 48 years of driving.

    Involuntary manslaughter

    Involuntary manslaughter is the unlawful killing of a human being without malice aforethought, either express or implied. It is distinguished from voluntary manslaughter by the absence of intention. It is normally divided into two categories; constructive manslaughter and criminally negligent manslaughter.

    Constructive manslaughter

    Constructive manslaughter is also referred to as ‘unlawful act’ manslaughter. It is based on the doctrine of constructive malice, whereby the malicious intent inherent in the commission of a crime is considered to apply to the consequences of that crime. It occurs when someone kills, without intent, in the course of committing an unlawful act. The malice involved in the crime is transferred to the killing, resulting in a charge of manslaughter.

    For example, a person who runs a red light in their vehicle and hits someone crossing the street could be found to intend or be reckless as to assault or criminal damage (see DPP v Newbury[13]). There is no intent to kill, and a resulting death would not be considered murder, but would be considered involuntary manslaughter. The accused's responsibility for causing death is constructed from the fault in committing what might have been a minor criminal act.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manslaughter
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  18. #93
    Can'tre Member 3alarmer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dc
    IF Gascon, truly believes that then as has been said already he (and ALL of the rest of the D.A.s in the nation) need to start filing felony vehicular manslaughter chargers against EVERY motorist who hits and kills either a cyclist or a pedestrian. It also supports (at least to me) that they're primarily going after this cyclist to make an example out of him, and are using him as a scapegoat and that they are NOT really seeking justice.
    I'm good with this. Let's make it happen.
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    Senior Member Digital_Cowboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3alarmer View Post
    I'm good with this. Let's make it happen.
    Really, your "good" with this?

    I sure as hell hope that you are being sarcastic. If as it appears that this cyclist is being punished for the actions of others that is NOT justice.

    And if he is convicted NOT because of the actions of other cyclists rather than his own actions then hopefully that will will give him a better chance on appeal.

    Or in other words, if the majority of motorists in your area get away with speeding (and we know that in most areas they in fact do) does that mean that YOU would be accepting of when/if caught for speeding that you were in effect punished for all of their actions rather than your actions?
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    Quote Originally Posted by corvuscorvax View Post
    No. It is black and white. That's why there is traffic law. It is illegal everywhere I have heard of to enter an intersection on yellow if it is possible for you to safely stop. If you have to "sprint" to make the light, you are obviously capable of stopping (certainly a quarter block is plenty) and are in violation of the law.

    It's also incredibly stupid to run a red, even if you rationalize it by saying you entered the intersection on a yellow, since it might not be a pedestrian jumping off the line on green, but automotive cross traffic.
    Then it should be easy for you to cite the section of the vehicle code.
    Perish any man who suspects that these men either did or suffered anything unseemly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keith99 View Post
    Then it should be easy for you to cite the section of the vehicle code.
    There is no requirement to slow beyond the standard reasonable and prudent speed requirements when approaching and traveling thru an intersection

    http://www.azleg.state.az.us/FormatD...28&DocType=ARS
    (a) Vehicular traffic facing a steady yellow signal is warned by the signal that the related green movement is being terminated or that a red indication will be exhibited immediately thereafter when vehicular traffic shall not enter the intersection.

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    Senior Member Keith99's Avatar
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    Obviously that he was seen riding recklessly leading up to the collision, that there are witnesses and even video has absolutely nothing to do with him being charged.
    Perish any man who suspects that these men either did or suffered anything unseemly.

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    What is going to convict this guy are his own words:


    A posting that originated from Bucchere's e-mail address soon after the accident gave the following account: "I was already way too committed to stop. ... I couldn't see a line through the crowd and I couldn't stop, so I laid it down and just plowed through the crowded crosswalk in the least-populated place I could find."

    If you are speeding at a crowd of pedestrians crossing the sidewalk, albeit illegally, since Bucchere had the light, you can't just claim "I have the right of way" not slow down and plow into them. You have to slow down and avoid them.

    In addition, the surveillance camera shows he was not attempting to slow down. DA was right to charge him with homicide.
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    Quote Originally Posted by San Rensho View Post
    What is going to convict this guy are his own words:


    A posting that originated from Bucchere's e-mail address soon after the accident gave the following account: "I was already way too committed to stop. ... I couldn't see a line through the crowd and I couldn't stop, so I laid it down and just plowed through the crowded crosswalk in the least-populated place I could find."

    If you are speeding at a crowd of pedestrians crossing the sidewalk, albeit illegally, since Bucchere had the light, you can't just claim "I have the right of way" not slow down and plow into them. You have to slow down and avoid them.

    In addition, the surveillance camera shows he was not attempting to slow down. DA was right to charge him with homicide.
    Ah, but do we really know for a fact that those were his words? It is possible to post at any number of web sites using someone else's e-mail address.
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    Quote Originally Posted by San Rensho View Post
    What is going to convict this guy are his own words:


    A posting that originated from Bucchere's e-mail address soon after the accident gave the following account: "I was already way too committed to stop. ... I couldn't see a line through the crowd and I couldn't stop, so I laid it down and just plowed through the crowded crosswalk in the least-populated place I could find."

    If you are speeding at a crowd of pedestrians crossing the sidewalk, albeit illegally, since Bucchere had the light, you can't just claim "I have the right of way" not slow down and plow into them. You have to slow down and avoid them.

    In addition, the surveillance camera shows he was not attempting to slow down. DA was right to charge him with homicide.
    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Cowboy View Post
    Ah, but do we really know for a fact that those were his words? It is possible to post at any number of web sites using someone else's e-mail address.
    That is a huge stretch

    What is more probable?
    a) Cyclist posting from his email acct with details related to the crash and medical status and loading data to strava?

    or

    b) Some anomymous person finding out who bucchere was, then finding his email address, then posting to the site using some tool to hide source of email and same person faking data to load to strava?

    People consistently seem to be forgetting a person was killed. This is not about what happens to drivers, this is about the specific incident.

    Based on everything that as been reported the Buccere was

    * speeding and running red lights in the immediate time period before the crash
    * Speeding at the time of the crash
    * Made a decsion go through a light that another cyclist was able to stop for.
    * Entereed the light very late in the yellow cycle at minimum
    * Appeared to be cycling hard, head down and focused on speed crossing the intersection
    * Hit a pedestrian who had a walk signal in an uncrowded cross walk
    * Pedestrian dies
    * Bucchere goes to hospital ER and is released, sell reporting no major injuries
    * Bucchere posts about incident on web site, post is uncaring to callous in tone and contradicts video
    * Bucchere post data from his cyclo meter to strava. Appears he is racing to beat a course time
    * Cleansing occurs with post removed from web site.

    What picture does this paint?
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