Is this bike lane safe? Survey, video. (1700S SLC)
06-02-12, 11:02 AM
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Is this bike lane safe? Survey, video. (1700S SLC)
This video shows a bike lane that I often don't use, but some truck driver feels strongly that I should use it.
https://youtu.be/EcKARTzfytc
In two places in this short segment, you can see cars cross the bike lane. My experience is that this particular parking strip is very busy in the warm months because of the park, tennis courts, and water slides. Peds and cars both traffic this bike lane, often without looking (IMHO).
The speed limit at this location is 35 MPH, my speed here is about 21 MPH. The car traffic is generally moderate or light, I don't feel that it's difficult for other vehicles to pass me on this 5-lane. Before someone asks if there is an alternate, the answer is no, this is the alternate. SLC labels it as a preferred bike route in their 2005 map.
So:
1. Am I just paranoid, would you ride in the bike lane, even when the park is busy?
2. Would I be justified in asking SLC for a third white stripe, adding another 12" of separation between the bike lane and the parked cars?
Thanks,
Chris
(BTW, you can find this location on Google as the "Glendale Golf Course, Salt Lake City," 1700S is on the north of the golf course, in the video I'm traveling east.)
https://youtu.be/EcKARTzfytc
In two places in this short segment, you can see cars cross the bike lane. My experience is that this particular parking strip is very busy in the warm months because of the park, tennis courts, and water slides. Peds and cars both traffic this bike lane, often without looking (IMHO).
The speed limit at this location is 35 MPH, my speed here is about 21 MPH. The car traffic is generally moderate or light, I don't feel that it's difficult for other vehicles to pass me on this 5-lane. Before someone asks if there is an alternate, the answer is no, this is the alternate. SLC labels it as a preferred bike route in their 2005 map.
So:
1. Am I just paranoid, would you ride in the bike lane, even when the park is busy?
2. Would I be justified in asking SLC for a third white stripe, adding another 12" of separation between the bike lane and the parked cars?
Thanks,
Chris
(BTW, you can find this location on Google as the "Glendale Golf Course, Salt Lake City," 1700S is on the north of the golf course, in the video I'm traveling east.)
Last edited by christofoo; 06-02-12 at 11:45 AM.
06-02-12, 11:21 AM
#2
Commander, UFO Bike
I'd agree, a bike lane in a door zone is big time scary, and I'd be riding to the outside of that area, or in the lane, especially when there's a ton of parked cars there. You say that's a park. Parent's *MAY* look before opening the door, but kids wouldn't think about it. Next thing you know, you're laid out with your head trying to act as a speed bump for passing traffic.
If there's enough space for it, I'd push for a buffered bike lane. I'd make sure that in your correspondence you include members of the local bike scene, lawyers, and members of the media (and don't hide it with bcc). A little pressure from outside influences can do wonders.
If you manage to get a buffer here, please send photos or do a video ride by, I'd like to see it.
If there's enough space for it, I'd push for a buffered bike lane. I'd make sure that in your correspondence you include members of the local bike scene, lawyers, and members of the media (and don't hide it with bcc). A little pressure from outside influences can do wonders.
If you manage to get a buffer here, please send photos or do a video ride by, I'd like to see it.
Last edited by K'Tesh; 06-02-12 at 07:10 PM.
06-02-12, 11:42 AM
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Here are some examples of bike lane buffers that seem appropriate for this location to me:
https://la.streetsblog.org/wp-content...BikeLanes2.jpg
https://bikesiliconvalley.org/files/i...e-lane-web.jpg
https://i216.photobucket.com/albums/c...n/68d489d2.jpg
I think it seems best to be on the left side of the parked cars. The buffer I want is between me and the parked cars.
https://la.streetsblog.org/wp-content...BikeLanes2.jpg
https://bikesiliconvalley.org/files/i...e-lane-web.jpg
https://i216.photobucket.com/albums/c...n/68d489d2.jpg
I think it seems best to be on the left side of the parked cars. The buffer I want is between me and the parked cars.
06-02-12, 01:28 PM
#4
Banned
Based on my experiences with our local BLs, that bike lane is fairly safe since all of the parked vehicles were well away from the BL's outside line, save the one red car that was parked poorly.
Another plus for that particular BL is that it had two adjacent one way lanes with a two way turn lane in the center of the roadway, letting motorists to be more willing to change lanes completely or partially when passing a cyclist.
Now, narrow the side street parking 1ft less, take away the center turn lane, turn those two adjacent one way lanes into two way 10 ft lanes, park several full sized four wheel drive pickups, or duallys with severely extended towing mirrors and tires that extend a foot or more in the BL, increase the traffic flow in your video by a factor of five to ten, and then you have our local area's new BL install.
Another plus for that particular BL is that it had two adjacent one way lanes with a two way turn lane in the center of the roadway, letting motorists to be more willing to change lanes completely or partially when passing a cyclist.
Now, narrow the side street parking 1ft less, take away the center turn lane, turn those two adjacent one way lanes into two way 10 ft lanes, park several full sized four wheel drive pickups, or duallys with severely extended towing mirrors and tires that extend a foot or more in the BL, increase the traffic flow in your video by a factor of five to ten, and then you have our local area's new BL install.
Last edited by dynodonn; 06-02-12 at 01:34 PM.
06-02-12, 01:56 PM
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Considering how fast you were going and the low volume of traffic, I don't think it was unreasonable for you to ride in the street. There was also someone pulling out who was more likely to see you if you were riding in the street. Then, at the end when there were no more parked cars, you went into the bike lane. It seemed quite sensible to me.
People in general don't understand the rules concerning bike lanes, even people who are trying to be informed can get it wrong at times.
An aside: If I knew for certain what I was doing was the best course of action to take and someone yells insulting remarks at me, I'd probably ignore them. Especially if they are resorting to name-calling. That's the deal-breaker for a reasonable conversation between driver and cyclist.
People in general don't understand the rules concerning bike lanes, even people who are trying to be informed can get it wrong at times.
An aside: If I knew for certain what I was doing was the best course of action to take and someone yells insulting remarks at me, I'd probably ignore them. Especially if they are resorting to name-calling. That's the deal-breaker for a reasonable conversation between driver and cyclist.
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What do you call a cyclist who sells potpourri on the road? A pedaling petal-peddler.
06-02-12, 02:11 PM
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[Edit: as WPeabody was saying...]
Just want to emphasize this interaction at 0:59. If I were in the bike lane we would be blind to each other until well inside my stopping distance.
I've been having a hard time training myself not to flip people off in a road dispute context. Somehow it didn't show up on my camera, but in this case I gave the guy a friendly wave and didn't say anything, which is probably my best reaction to date.
Just want to emphasize this interaction at 0:59. If I were in the bike lane we would be blind to each other until well inside my stopping distance.
I've been having a hard time training myself not to flip people off in a road dispute context. Somehow it didn't show up on my camera, but in this case I gave the guy a friendly wave and didn't say anything, which is probably my best reaction to date.
Last edited by christofoo; 06-02-12 at 02:27 PM.
06-02-12, 02:41 PM
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Based on my experiences with our local BLs, that bike lane is fairly safe since all of the parked vehicles were well away from the BL's outside line, save the one red car that was parked poorly.
Another plus for that particular BL is that it had two adjacent one way lanes with a two way turn lane in the center of the roadway, letting motorists to be more willing to change lanes completely or partially when passing a cyclist.
Now, narrow the side street parking 1ft less, take away the center turn lane, turn those two adjacent one way lanes into two way 10 ft lanes, park several full sized four wheel drive pickups, or duallys with severely extended towing mirrors and tires that extend a foot or more in the BL, increase the traffic flow in your video by a factor of five to ten, and then you have our local area's new BL install.
Another plus for that particular BL is that it had two adjacent one way lanes with a two way turn lane in the center of the roadway, letting motorists to be more willing to change lanes completely or partially when passing a cyclist.
Now, narrow the side street parking 1ft less, take away the center turn lane, turn those two adjacent one way lanes into two way 10 ft lanes, park several full sized four wheel drive pickups, or duallys with severely extended towing mirrors and tires that extend a foot or more in the BL, increase the traffic flow in your video by a factor of five to ten, and then you have our local area's new BL install.
06-02-12, 02:43 PM
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It does take a lot of self-control to not lose one's temper with some people. I tend to talk to myself after an altercation or a close pass, but I only yell or wave to get their attention, and sometimes it is accompanied with a more Mediterranean type of gesture, which is an upward thrust of a somewhat open hand, palm facing inward, a cross between a wave and "flipping the bird", I suppose.
This goes along with some of the incidents in other cyclists' videos, where the bike lane is crowded, has a door zone, or various other reasons for avoiding riding in it-- such as going above, at or near the posted speed limit. It would be too hazardous to go that fast in a bike lane, too close to the edge of the road with all sorts of surface hazards, etc. Substandard bike lanes are too common, so it's just common sense at times to ride outside of them. Some of these drivers don't always understand the reason and often don't really care. Personally, I don't get disapproval from drivers if they can see the reason for my riding in the road. But I've seen the same drivers who passed me without incident, get all huffy with a pair of cyclists ahead who are riding two abreast, and one of them is inside the fog line of the road. They had an empty road, the car could have just gone around them, but instead the driver had to pull some sort of strange stunt, then honk at them...
This goes along with some of the incidents in other cyclists' videos, where the bike lane is crowded, has a door zone, or various other reasons for avoiding riding in it-- such as going above, at or near the posted speed limit. It would be too hazardous to go that fast in a bike lane, too close to the edge of the road with all sorts of surface hazards, etc. Substandard bike lanes are too common, so it's just common sense at times to ride outside of them. Some of these drivers don't always understand the reason and often don't really care. Personally, I don't get disapproval from drivers if they can see the reason for my riding in the road. But I've seen the same drivers who passed me without incident, get all huffy with a pair of cyclists ahead who are riding two abreast, and one of them is inside the fog line of the road. They had an empty road, the car could have just gone around them, but instead the driver had to pull some sort of strange stunt, then honk at them...
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What do you call a cyclist who sells potpourri on the road? A pedaling petal-peddler.
What do you call a cyclist who sells potpourri on the road? A pedaling petal-peddler.
06-02-12, 02:56 PM
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is the bike lane safe?
no type of bicycling is safe.
Does that bikelane make that road safer for bicyclists? Studies suggest that type of bike lane makes that road safer for bike traffic.
no type of bicycling is safe.
Does that bikelane make that road safer for bicyclists? Studies suggest that type of bike lane makes that road safer for bike traffic.
06-02-12, 06:06 PM
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Studies suggest, Bek? Nothing of the kind. To show that a conventional bike lane reduces the car-bike collision rate per cyclist, one must have both empirical evidence, which may be a correlation, and an explanation of how the changes produced in the traffic patterns actually reduce the probability of car-bike collision. No advocate of bike lanes has ever done that. When such an analysis is done, the reasonable conclusion is that bike lanes probably have little effect, and that effect is more likely to be detrimental than favorable.
06-02-12, 07:16 PM
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Originally Posted by safety benefits of bike lanes, city of Cambridge
Bike lanes help define road space, decrease the stress level of bicyclists riding in traffic, encourage bicyclists to ride in the correct direction of travel, and signal motorists that cyclists have a right to the road.
Bike lanes help to better organize the flow of traffic and reduce the chance that motorists will stray into cyclists’ path of travel.1, 2
Bicyclists have stated their preference for marked on-street bicycle lanes in numerous surveys.3 In addition, several real-time studies (where cyclists of varying abilities and backgrounds ride and assess actual routes and street conditions) have found that cyclists are more comfortable and assess a street as having a better level of service for them where there are marked bike lanes present.4
In summary, bike lanes do the following:
support and encourage bicycling as a means of transportation;
help define road space;
promote a more orderly flow of traffic;
encourage bicyclists to ride in the correct direction, with the flow of traffic;
give bicyclists a clear place to be so they are not tempted to ride on the sidewalk;
remind motorists to look for cyclists when turning or opening car doors;
signal motorists that cyclists have a right to the road;
reduce the chance that motorists will stray into cyclists’ path of travel;
make it less likely that passing motorists swerve toward opposing traffic;
decrease the stress level of bicyclists riding in traffic.
Well-designed facilities encourage proper behavior and decrease the likelihood of crashes. Numerous studies have shown that bicycle lanes improve safety and promote proper riding behavior.5
In 1996, over 2000 League of American Bicyclist members were surveyed about the crashes (accidents) they were involved in over the course of the previous year. From the information, a relative danger index was calculated which shows that streets with bike lanes were the safest places to ride, having a significantly lower crash rate then either major or minor streets without any bicycle facilities; moreover, they are safer than trails and sidewalks as well.6
The addition of bicycle lanes in Davis, California reduced crashes by 31 percent.7
Bicycle lanes on a major avenue in Eugene, Oregon resulted in an increase in bicycle use and a substantial reduction in the bicycle crash rate. The crash rate per 100,000 bike miles fell by almost half and the motor vehicle crash rate also fell significantly.8
When the city of Corvallis, OR installed 13 miles of bicycle lanes in one year, the number of bicycle crashes fell from 40 in the year prior to the installation to just 16 in the year afterwards, and of the 5 crashes that occurred on streets with bike lanes, all involved bicyclists riding at night with no lights.9
In Chicago, Illinois, crash severity was reduced in one study of marking bike lanes in a narrow cross section where 5 foot bike lanes were marked next to 7 foot parking lanes.10
In Denmark, bicycle lanes reduced the number of bicycle crashes by 35 percent.11 Some of the bike lanes reached risk
reductions of 70 to 80 percent.12
A comparison of crash rates of all types in major cities has shown that cities with higher bicycle use have lower traffic crash rates of all types than cities with lower bicycle use.13
In a national study comparing streets with bike lanes and those without, several important observations were made:14
Wrong-way riding was significantly lower on the streets with bike lanes.
In approaching intersections, 15% of cyclists on streets without bike lanes rode on the sidewalks, vs. 3% on the streets with bike lanes.
On streets with bike lanes, 81% of cyclists obeyed stop signs, vs. 55% on streets without.
In Cambridge, sidewalk bicycling was cut in half after the installation of bicycle lanes on Mass. Ave. in Central Square.15
Corvallis and Eugene, Oregon, cities with good bikeway networks, have the highest number of riders and rider behavior is the best: wrong-way riding is minimal, fewer ride on the sidewalk than in other Oregon cities.
In looking at comparable streets with and without bicycle lanes in Davis and Santa Barbara, California, the number of cyclists riding on the wrong side of the street was one third as much on streets with bicycle lanes
Bike lanes help to better organize the flow of traffic and reduce the chance that motorists will stray into cyclists’ path of travel.1, 2
Bicyclists have stated their preference for marked on-street bicycle lanes in numerous surveys.3 In addition, several real-time studies (where cyclists of varying abilities and backgrounds ride and assess actual routes and street conditions) have found that cyclists are more comfortable and assess a street as having a better level of service for them where there are marked bike lanes present.4
In summary, bike lanes do the following:
support and encourage bicycling as a means of transportation;
help define road space;
promote a more orderly flow of traffic;
encourage bicyclists to ride in the correct direction, with the flow of traffic;
give bicyclists a clear place to be so they are not tempted to ride on the sidewalk;
remind motorists to look for cyclists when turning or opening car doors;
signal motorists that cyclists have a right to the road;
reduce the chance that motorists will stray into cyclists’ path of travel;
make it less likely that passing motorists swerve toward opposing traffic;
decrease the stress level of bicyclists riding in traffic.
Well-designed facilities encourage proper behavior and decrease the likelihood of crashes. Numerous studies have shown that bicycle lanes improve safety and promote proper riding behavior.5
In 1996, over 2000 League of American Bicyclist members were surveyed about the crashes (accidents) they were involved in over the course of the previous year. From the information, a relative danger index was calculated which shows that streets with bike lanes were the safest places to ride, having a significantly lower crash rate then either major or minor streets without any bicycle facilities; moreover, they are safer than trails and sidewalks as well.6
The addition of bicycle lanes in Davis, California reduced crashes by 31 percent.7
Bicycle lanes on a major avenue in Eugene, Oregon resulted in an increase in bicycle use and a substantial reduction in the bicycle crash rate. The crash rate per 100,000 bike miles fell by almost half and the motor vehicle crash rate also fell significantly.8
When the city of Corvallis, OR installed 13 miles of bicycle lanes in one year, the number of bicycle crashes fell from 40 in the year prior to the installation to just 16 in the year afterwards, and of the 5 crashes that occurred on streets with bike lanes, all involved bicyclists riding at night with no lights.9
In Chicago, Illinois, crash severity was reduced in one study of marking bike lanes in a narrow cross section where 5 foot bike lanes were marked next to 7 foot parking lanes.10
In Denmark, bicycle lanes reduced the number of bicycle crashes by 35 percent.11 Some of the bike lanes reached risk
reductions of 70 to 80 percent.12
A comparison of crash rates of all types in major cities has shown that cities with higher bicycle use have lower traffic crash rates of all types than cities with lower bicycle use.13
In a national study comparing streets with bike lanes and those without, several important observations were made:14
Wrong-way riding was significantly lower on the streets with bike lanes.
In approaching intersections, 15% of cyclists on streets without bike lanes rode on the sidewalks, vs. 3% on the streets with bike lanes.
On streets with bike lanes, 81% of cyclists obeyed stop signs, vs. 55% on streets without.
In Cambridge, sidewalk bicycling was cut in half after the installation of bicycle lanes on Mass. Ave. in Central Square.15
Corvallis and Eugene, Oregon, cities with good bikeway networks, have the highest number of riders and rider behavior is the best: wrong-way riding is minimal, fewer ride on the sidewalk than in other Oregon cities.
In looking at comparable streets with and without bicycle lanes in Davis and Santa Barbara, California, the number of cyclists riding on the wrong side of the street was one third as much on streets with bicycle lanes
Last edited by Bekologist; 06-02-12 at 08:26 PM.
06-03-12, 08:18 AM
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06-03-12, 10:38 AM
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The most significant contributions of bike lanes appear to be in the propaganda effects of reducing sidewalk cycling and, perhaps, wrong-way cycling.
06-03-12, 01:02 PM
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When an official government publication contains so many claims that have been demonstrated to be not supported by the documents referenced, it becomes no more than a propaganda piece that should not be trusted for any substantive information. I repeat: despite the fact that American bike lanes have been promoted for forty years, there has never been a study demonstrating both that the bike-lane stripe significantly reduces car-bike collisions accompanied by a description of how it does this.
The most significant contributions of bike lanes appear to be in the propaganda effects of reducing sidewalk cycling and, perhaps, wrong-way cycling.
The most significant contributions of bike lanes appear to be in the propaganda effects of reducing sidewalk cycling and, perhaps, wrong-way cycling.
06-03-12, 02:01 PM
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(Also, please don't get caught up in my semantics. Evidently no one assumes that cycling is safe. A more proper phrasing for my question would have been "do you see a problem with this bike lane? Is it solvable?")
Last edited by christofoo; 06-03-12 at 02:06 PM.
06-03-12, 02:36 PM
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Well then, I suggest that you, Hagen, list for us those documents from the Cambridge list that you consider demonstrate car-bike collision reduction produced by bike-lane stripes.
06-03-12, 02:53 PM
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I have a simple formula for determining if particular road/bike line is safe that includes factors as speed, visibility reaction time. It's not entirely different from what card drivers are supposed to do.
This particular bike line is probably safe if your speed is about 15mph. Any faster and I'd switch to the road as I would not have enough of time to react to the door opening.
My town has bike lines like that while also recommending to ride 3-4ft away from parked cars...go figure.
This particular bike line is probably safe if your speed is about 15mph. Any faster and I'd switch to the road as I would not have enough of time to react to the door opening.
My town has bike lines like that while also recommending to ride 3-4ft away from parked cars...go figure.
06-03-12, 03:14 PM
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Dodging again, I see. As if we had never had these discussions before, and you hadn't been shown the truth of the matter. Go back and read the relevant threads. Personally, I've given up reasoning with you. The perpetual evasions and dodging is too tiring to cope with.
06-03-12, 03:18 PM
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I have a simple formula for determining if particular road/bike line is safe that includes factors as speed, visibility reaction time. It's not entirely different from what card drivers are supposed to do.
This particular bike line is probably safe if your speed is about 15mph. Any faster and I'd switch to the road as I would not have enough of time to react to the door opening.
My town has bike lines like that while also recommending to ride 3-4ft away from parked cars...go figure.
This particular bike line is probably safe if your speed is about 15mph. Any faster and I'd switch to the road as I would not have enough of time to react to the door opening.
My town has bike lines like that while also recommending to ride 3-4ft away from parked cars...go figure.
06-03-12, 04:25 PM
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Dodging again, I see. As if we had never had these discussions before, and you hadn't been shown the truth of the matter. Go back and read the relevant threads. Personally, I've given up reasoning with you. The perpetual evasions and dodging is too tiring to cope with.
You assert that since I have been shown the truth of the matter there's no point in further discussion. That boils down to your claim that I have been presented with what you believe to the truth of the matter. I find no reason to consider your beliefs in matters of American bicycle transportation to have any credibility whatsoever. I'm not personally vindictive; your opinions, presumably amateur, have about the same level of credibility of a great many professionally produced studies favoring bikeways that have passed my desk. That is to say, no credibility at all. I've seen forty years of largely junk science produced in that subject, and the quality isn't getting any better. The only credible justifications for bikeways are popularity among both ill-informed cyclists and don't-bother-to-think motorists.
06-03-12, 08:18 PM
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Originally Posted by john forester
I've seen forty years of largely junk science.
ignore the results, the safety, the ridership...... and all the bicycling being done in US cities that plan for bike traffic begins to look like one big conspiracy against bicyclists! New York City bike network - one grand plot against bike transportation.
As to the OP's 'bike lane danger' - I'd be confident of Salt Lake City being able to point to improved safety for bicyclists along that traffic corridor.
Evidence suggests that bike lane leads to:
Less sidewalk and less wrong way cycling, bicyclists positioned further from the parked cars than before, greater use of the road and that traffic corridor by bicyclists, smoother interactions between bikes and car traffic, greater motorist cognizance of bicyclists on that road.
(I might have missed a few of the probable safety enhancements.)
Last edited by Bekologist; 06-03-12 at 08:33 PM.
06-03-12, 10:22 PM
#22
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Safe for cycling or safe for your civil liberties? This is clearly an Article 21 intrusion on our automobile driving culture!
I am rather stunned by the width of the parking lane, it measured about 9' wide on google earth, I'm used to 7.5'); and I was surprised to measure the travel lanes at about 10' wide, I expected wider. The bike lane seemed about 5' wide. While not perfect, this door-zone bike lane seems much better than most.
I would suggest two things for markings:
Add hash marks to help delineate the door zone.
Remind whoever designs the lanes that 5' is really the absolute minimum width. I couldn't tell if the road was somewhat downhill, or if you are just speedy or had a tailwind, but downhill lanes really need to be wider because of a cyclists potential speed.
I am rather stunned by the width of the parking lane, it measured about 9' wide on google earth, I'm used to 7.5'); and I was surprised to measure the travel lanes at about 10' wide, I expected wider. The bike lane seemed about 5' wide. While not perfect, this door-zone bike lane seems much better than most.
I would suggest two things for markings:
Add hash marks to help delineate the door zone.
Remind whoever designs the lanes that 5' is really the absolute minimum width. I couldn't tell if the road was somewhat downhill, or if you are just speedy or had a tailwind, but downhill lanes really need to be wider because of a cyclists potential speed.
06-04-12, 09:57 AM
#23
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Back to the OP: it kind of depends on your tolerance for close passing. I've certainly seen way, way worse. That bike lane looks wide enough so that, if you ride close to the left edge, you'll be out of the door zone. Trouble is, that'll put you close to the passing traffic to your left (like, the side mirror of that truck), which could be pretty disconcerting at that speed. I'd support either choice here. Don't worry about the haters -- keep in mind that the drivers who don't ride bikes have no idea what you're dealing with, and those who are cyclists will understand exactly why you're doing what you're doing.
06-04-12, 10:21 AM
#24
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The funniest - or perhaps actually scariest - thing is that JF tries to make it seem as if I "claimed that some studies in the Cambridge MA list seemed rather valid to" me. I didn't, of course, or at least not in the sense JF claims I did, but making that little twist is typical of his way of discussing.
06-04-12, 01:05 PM
#25
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I'd use it. I'd ride as far from the parked cars as possible.
I agree that there are dangers inherent in a bike lane like this, but I don't think they're any worse than those encountered while riding in the lane.
I agree that there are dangers inherent in a bike lane like this, but I don't think they're any worse than those encountered while riding in the lane.