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Old 08-30-12, 09:05 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by spivonious View Post
Don't let the helmet thread guys see this:



It sucks when a cyclist dies from an idiot driver running into him. What can we do to make drivers more aware of us? I think we need some public service announcements. Many of my friends are impressed that I've started commuting via bicycle, but are too afraid to ride on the roads. My wife fears for my safety every day I go out. Most drivers here are courteous, but very few know the laws. PA recently passed a 4-foot law, but I've had maybe 5% of drivers obey that. Most give 2-3 feet, and others don't move over at all.
I don't think anyone seriously believes that a helmet will save you in every situation.

Regarding driver awareness, yes PSA'a are nice but, unless I see data to the contrary, my visceral reaction is that they don't do beans. In this situation, probably the best thing would have been better lighting- a $10 bike store blinky is not a Dinotte 400R.
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Old 08-30-12, 09:16 AM   #77
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http://news.yahoo.com/police-100-old...002339683.html
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Old 08-30-12, 09:23 AM   #78
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I think that's very close to hitting the nail quite squarely.I'm far from old (early 30s), but not once have I ever seen anyone re-tested on driving competence for a license renewal. I believe it's necessary to do so, at least once per decade if not every half (or four years, if that's your renewal term). I've heard tell of some countries requiring extensive training to receive a normal license. But there are some issues with this.

I'll try not to cross too far into politics with this. But the short reasons for not requiring renewal tests are cost and the people. The cost of testing everyone could become prohibitive, and thus make the cost of renewal too much to be considered reasonable. As far as the people, there seems to be a mindset that driving is a right and not a privilege; that further testing would be Big Government being intrusive; the mindset taught to us from birth has been bigger, faster, more daring; and generally people are becoming ever more complacent regarding responsibility behind the wheel. It all adds up to make the roads a bit less safe.
If the fees are increased to cover the cost, then there is no issue... in fact, if the fees were increased to allow the DMV/DOT to make profit on the testing and licensing, perhaps they would do a better job, feed the government that supports the office and garner a bit of respect from motorists who realize that getting a license is not just a crackerjack prize.
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Old 08-30-12, 09:28 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by spivonious View Post
Don't let the helmet thread guys see this:



It sucks when a cyclist dies from an idiot driver running into him. What can we do to make drivers more aware of us? I think we need some public service announcements. Many of my friends are impressed that I've started commuting via bicycle, but are too afraid to ride on the roads. My wife fears for my safety every day I go out. Most drivers here are courteous, but very few know the laws. PA recently passed a 4-foot law, but I've had maybe 5% of drivers obey that. Most give 2-3 feet, and others don't move over at all.
Indeed I have often thought that a few well placed billboards that come right out and say "Cyclists have the same rights to road as Motorists," and quote some public law like CVC 21200 and perhaps show a happy cyclist and happy motorist side by side (or something) is strongly needed. Around here, boating safety gets more publicity.
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Old 08-30-12, 09:39 AM   #80
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I suspect that the motorist had this perception as well.
Wrong road. The bike path that is delayed is parallel to a different road. The bike path was scheduled to be placed along Riverside Dr.. The cyclist was killed on Wilmer. Wilmer is a one lane road, each direction. Riverside is a two lane road, each direction. At 6:15 am, anyone riding on the two lane Riverside Dr. would more than likely not be there and take Columbia Pkwy. Like I said, I ride this road almost daily. There are times I ride the four miles and might only see 2 or 3 cars. The right hand lane is rarely ridden on by motorists. It is actually a very nice road to ride on.
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Old 08-30-12, 10:25 AM   #81
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I've ridden nearly 100,000 miles in the hours of darkness. I've had many close calls during daylight hours, but have never had any motorist get close to me at night. I believe there are two factors at work here:
1. There are far fewer cars being operated when I am out at night.
2. My lights and reflective gear creates a much greater contrast with my surroundings at night than they do during the day.
I had the same thought riding in this morning. Although I don't like to ride in the dark, I actually feel safer because I have the same experience - cars give me more room because of the light and reflector enhanced visibility. The lower traffic density is certainly significant, too. I really hate the winter afternoons when it is dark before I get home. I think going to work drivers are more sedate than going home drivers.

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Old 08-30-12, 10:38 AM   #82
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This happened near me, and I've been following it closely, both from the local groups and Steve Magas. I agree the path there is horrid. There are two sections, one in front of the terminal building and one going down a steep hill that you are supposed to walk your bike. Even the better sections of Lunken Loop aren't great. It smooths out, but can get pretty narrow. On a normal day, adding in joggers running two abreast, rollerbladers, kids weaving etc it's enough to stress someone out who's just on a hybrid. There are some nice parts, and recently they linked it to another park and multi-use path. I didn't go on the memorial ride that they did that night, but others reported that they were passed within 6 inches. The group totalled about 50 riders.

Some of the news channels had interviews, and both had quotes to give us our three feet, but unfortunately what was not mentioned is that this is the law in the city. Some seem to think that we feel we are just entitled to it and our own opinion.
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Old 08-30-12, 10:42 AM   #83
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Huge fact-- it was dark out. . Does anyone believe riding at night is safe?
YES, I routinely ride at night and by and large I feel much safer doing so vs. riding during the day. Of course I have multiple lights, a big orange safety vest.

If it isn't "safe" to ride a bike at night (and by the way it was just before dawn not at night when this crash happened) then it is likewise unsafe to drive or walk at night.
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Old 08-30-12, 10:44 AM   #84
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some american drivers are just so stupid!! not just handicap people, but also texting, drinking, being an idiot in general... I almost got hit today because a pickup truck suddenly scooted two lanes over to make a turn at 25 mph, saw me and steered away. (I was riding maybe 10 mph on the sidewalk) F**kin idiot... It was night and I should have had my front light. That's one thing I'm definitely going to make sure to bring from now on before I leave in the morning.

I blame the DOT. testing for a license is such BS in the states that just about anybody can get their hands one one.

------

sorry if I offended handicap people. but my point stands.
Stupidity is not exclusive to some Americans. Try driving in other countries and be more informed, that way you won't make any stupid remarks
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Old 08-30-12, 11:00 AM   #85
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Why are handicap people allowed to drive? Diving is a PRIVILEGE NOT A RIGHT, that's right say it with me PRIVILEGE. See now you can't say this is an issue of someones rights, because rights aren't relevant to the situation. You being sad because you aren't allowed to drive anymore does not out way the life of a cyclist. I live in Cincinnati myself, and I can't tell you the comfort I feel knowing that this guy is gonna be right back on the roads. Makes me feel all warm inside.
+ 1,000,000

To too many people driving is seen as some sort of "engraved in stone right." Such as "hey it's my 16th birthday, I get to get my drivers license." People need to be reminded that or us a PRIVILEGE, not a right. And it's a privilege that the state can revoke at ANY time.

And if one us elderly they should be tested at least once a year, if not more often to prove they can still safely drive. Likewise, if they have any sort of disability they need to prove that they can safely drive.

Both groups should also be required to carry twice to three times the amount of insurance as anyone else.
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Old 08-30-12, 11:14 AM   #86
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+ 1,000,000

To too many people driving is seen as some sort of "engraved in stone right." Such as "hey it's my 16th birthday, I get to get my drivers license." People need to be reminded that or us a PRIVILEGE, not a right. And it's a privilege that the state can revoke at ANY time.

And if one us elderly they should be tested at least once a year, if not more often to prove they can still safely drive. Likewise, if they have any sort of disability they need to prove that they can safely drive.

Both groups should also be required to carry twice to three times the amount of insurance as anyone else.
While I think we can do a far better job training and testing drivers and publicizing the rights of cyclists... suggesting that handicapped should not be allowed to drive is pure BS. That driver may have lost part of a leg while doing his part as a soldier, or he may have a work related injury that has nothing to do with his ability to drive. Focusing on the handicapped issue is a bad idea.

As far as elderly, if they are tested and can do the task, so be it. What this means is regular testing for ALL drivers AND a DMV/DOT willing to cancel drivers licenses... AND a real public transit system.

Until the above occurs, expect the drivers we have on the streets today to just continue merrily along... even if it means plowing into a group of school kids. Our system just doesn't respect the real threat of a moving motor vehicle and poor driver... we all but encourage the worst in motorists with stuff like 85% rules for speed, right turn on red, lousy road design, and ultra comfortable cars and numerous built in distractions to "entertain" motorists. 40,000 deaths a year just isn't enough to get real attention from the general public... we stupidly insist on calling such deaths merely "accidents."
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Old 08-30-12, 11:39 AM   #87
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This just makes me sick and not want to ride my bike anymore. The more I see this stuff the more I feel like buying a car for my own safety.
I've never owned a car. I may save money with gas and what not but would you lose you life for it? Will all that matter when your dead?

Sorry to hear this. No one deserves what this 27 year old got.
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Old 08-30-12, 12:20 PM   #88
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Right, it wasn't dark out, not by my definition. Now, admittedly my street is aligned east to west and the sun was coming up straight down my street, but I was outside the next day at about 6:20 in the morning and had no trouble seeing. It was more of a twilight type of light. Though down where this happened, you can get fog, it's pretty much right by the river.
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Old 08-30-12, 12:38 PM   #89
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I'll try not to cross too far into politics with this. But the short reasons for not requiring renewal tests are cost and the people. The cost of testing everyone could become prohibitive, and thus make the cost of renewal too much to be considered reasonable. As far as the people, there seems to be a mindset that driving is a right and not a privilege; that further testing would be Big Government being intrusive; the mindset taught to us from birth has been bigger, faster, more daring; and generally people are becoming ever more complacent regarding responsibility behind the wheel. It all adds up to make the roads a bit less safe.
I think that people who can't really drive are in the minority, and that most people would support more stringent regulation on giving out drivers license. You can make a similar 'intrusive' argument on having to get car insurance, property tax, or just about anything under the moon. But if it means making the streets safer and more efficient, I am perfectly fine with a few extra grumpy teenagers and seniors.

Heck, limit the number of cars on the road and invest in public transit. Europe is really good at this.
I agree, and given that if I am not mistaken either directly or indirectly the auto industry (at least in this country (the USA)) did it's best to "kill" various forms of public transportation, they should now be required to pay to rebuild the public transportation infrastructure.

We need improved public transportation in this country (the USA) so people don't need to own a car to get around. Cities also need to be laid out so that people don't need to "run all over town" in order to run simple everyday errands.
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Old 08-30-12, 12:48 PM   #90
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+ 1,000,000

To too many people driving is seen as some sort of "engraved in stone right." Such as "hey it's my 16th birthday, I get to get my drivers license." People need to be reminded that or us a PRIVILEGE, not a right. And it's a privilege that the state can revoke at ANY time.

And if one us elderly they should be tested at least once a year, if not more often to prove they can still safely drive. Likewise, if they have any sort of disability they need to prove that they can safely drive.

Both groups should also be required to carry twice to three times the amount of insurance as anyone else.
While I think we can do a far better job training and testing drivers and publicizing the rights of cyclists... suggesting that handicapped should not be allowed to drive is pure BS. That driver may have lost part of a leg while doing his part as a soldier, or he may have a work related injury that has nothing to do with his ability to drive. Focusing on the handicapped issue is a bad idea.

As far as elderly, if they are tested and can do the task, so be it. What this means is regular testing for ALL drivers AND a DMV/DOT willing to cancel drivers licenses... AND a real public transit system.

Until the above occurs, expect the drivers we have on the streets today to just continue merrily along... even if it means plowing into a group of school kids. Our system just doesn't respect the real threat of a moving motor vehicle and poor driver... we all but encourage the worst in motorists with stuff like 85% rules for speed, right turn on red, lousy road design, and ultra comfortable cars and numerous built in distractions to "entertain" motorists. 40,000 deaths a year just isn't enough to get real attention from the general public... we stupidly insist on calling such deaths merely "accidents."
Gene,

I did not say or suggest that the handicap not be allowed to drive. What I said us that because of the fact that they are handicapped, that they have to prove that they can safely drive a car on the public roads. That us not saying that they shouldn't be allowed to drive.

And as a Disabled Vet myself, I understand that a person with either handicap plates or a disabled mirror hanger could be a Disabled Vet. But that aside, if it's not safe for them to drive it doesn't matter why they're disabled.

Last edited by Digital_Cowboy; 08-30-12 at 12:54 PM.
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Old 08-30-12, 01:19 PM   #91
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For anyone in the area, there is going to be a second ride Tuesday night, starting at 6:30PM in the parking lot across from Lunken. The ride goes to the neighborhood where he lived, then back to the scene of the crash for a ghost bike presentation. As this ride is lead by the Cincinnati Cycle Club (and is for cycling awareness etc), helmets are required and tail lights highly recommended.
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Old 08-30-12, 01:28 PM   #92
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Gene,

I did not say or suggest that the handicap not be allowed to drive. What I said us that because of the fact that they are handicapped, that they have to prove that they can safely drive a car on the public roads. That us not saying that they shouldn't be allowed to drive.

And as a Disabled Vet myself, I understand that a person with either handicap plates or a disabled mirror hanger could be a Disabled Vet. But that aside, if it's not safe for them to drive it doesn't matter why they're disabled.
I agree that a driver has to be safe to drive to be permitted on public streets. What I reacted to was your +1,000,000.

Now getting back to being a safe driver... the only way we can assure that is regular testing of all drivers. Until that happens... Caveat emptor
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Old 08-30-12, 02:15 PM   #93
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Gene,

I did not say or suggest that the handicap not be allowed to drive. What I said us that because of the fact that they are handicapped, that they have to prove that they can safely drive a car on the public roads. That us not saying that they shouldn't be allowed to drive.

And as a Disabled Vet myself, I understand that a person with either handicap plates or a disabled mirror hanger could be a Disabled Vet. But that aside, if it's not safe for them to drive it doesn't matter why they're disabled.
I agree that a driver has to be safe to drive to be permitted on public streets. What I reacted to was your +1,000,000.

Now getting back to being a safe driver... the only way we can assure that is regular testing of all drivers. Until that happens... Caveat emptor
Gene,

May I respectfully suggest that you fully read a post before clicking reply? As you might end up taking something out of context.

Agreed, driving needs to be taken more seriously in this country then it currently is. One thing that I think would help, is that as with several professions, that drivers be required log x-number of continuing education hours per year. And to keep them from logging them all at the "last minute" they be spread out over the year. So that they have to log x-number per quarter.
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Old 08-30-12, 02:50 PM   #94
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Gene,

May I respectfully suggest that you fully read a post before clicking reply? As you might end up taking something out of context.

Agreed, driving needs to be taken more seriously in this country then it currently is. One thing that I think would help, is that as with several professions, that drivers be required log x-number of continuing education hours per year. And to keep them from logging them all at the "last minute" they be spread out over the year. So that they have to log x-number per quarter.
No matter how many times I read it, the original post and your response, the words that stand out to me come out something like this:

Quote:
honey locust:
Why are handicap people allowed to drive? I live in Cincinnati myself, and I can't tell you the comfort I feel knowing that this guy is gonna be right back on the roads. Makes me feel all warm inside.

Digital_Cowboy:
+ 1,000,000

Likewise, if they have any sort of disability they need to prove that they can safely drive.
Both groups should also be required to carry twice to three times the amount of insurance as anyone else.
Perhaps it would behoove you to better indicate what you are giving a million thumbs up to... otherwise someone might read something you did not actually intend. Going down this path of crucifying the aged or handicapped while not having any real knowledge of the facts, can tend to blur the real issues.
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Old 08-30-12, 03:32 PM   #95
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Ridiculous Death....

This is unfortunate. I ride in that area weekly and believe I have seen this bike and rider before.
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Old 08-30-12, 03:53 PM   #96
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Except that my very next line makes it clear (or should have) that they (the elderly & disabled) have (or should have) a higher burden to prove that they can safely operate an automobile of whatever sort on the road. And given that the elderly and depending on their disability, the disabled are more likely to be in a crash, they should be required to carry more insurance. Just as new young male drivers are (if I'm not mistaken) as they're more likely to show off and get into crashes.

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Gene,

May I respectfully suggest that you fully read a post before clicking reply? As you might end up taking something out of context.

Agreed, driving needs to be taken more seriously in this country then it currently is. One thing that I think would help, is that as with several professions, that drivers be required log x-number of continuing education hours per year. And to keep them from logging them all at the "last minute" they be spread out over the year. So that they have to log x-number per quarter.
No matter how many times I read it, the original post and your response, the words that stand out to me come out something like this:

Quote:
honey locust:
Why are handicap people allowed to drive? I live in Cincinnati myself, and I can't tell you the comfort I feel knowing that this guy is gonna be right back on the roads. Makes me feel all warm inside.

Digital_Cowboy:
+ 1,000,000

Likewise, if they have any sort of disability they need to prove that they can safely drive.
Both groups should also be required to carry twice to three times the amount of insurance as anyone else.
Perhaps it would behoove you to better indicate what you are giving a million thumbs up to... otherwise someone might read something you did not actually intend. Going down this path of crucifying the aged or handicapped while not having any real knowledge of the facts, can tend to blur the real issues.
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Old 08-30-12, 04:53 PM   #97
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Going down this path of crucifying the aged or handicapped while not having any real knowledge of the facts, can tend to blur the real issues.
Ya think?

I think the issue has been blurred from the very first post and continues with increasingly blurry "suggestions" and OT conjecture by a few of the more hysterical posters.
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Old 08-30-12, 05:57 PM   #98
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Gene,

I did not say or suggest that the handicap not be allowed to drive. What I said us that because of the fact that they are handicapped, that they have to prove that they can safely drive a car on the public roads. That us not saying that they shouldn't be allowed to drive.

And as a Disabled Vet myself, I understand that a person with either handicap plates or a disabled mirror hanger could be a Disabled Vet. But that aside, if it's not safe for them to drive it doesn't matter why they're disabled.
I never knew that. Thanks for your service.
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Old 08-30-12, 07:47 PM   #99
Kurt Erlenbach
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A few points. First, I made a mistake by pointing out the handicapped plate (though some of you certainly would have picked up on it yourselves). There is no evidence that this driver is handicapped, or if he is, whether the handicap contributed to the crash. Second, it apparently was early dawn and foggy at the time of the crash and while it probably was light enough to see if you were, say, jogging on the trail, it would have been neither safe nor legal to bike without lights. It is unclear whether Mr. Gast's lights were on, but I'd bet they were. Third, we all make mistakes while driving. 99+% of the time, nothing happens. For most of the remaining 1%, the result is bent sheet metal, maybe some whiplash, and a ticket. In only a tiny fraction of those mistakes is someone seriously hurt or killed. Whenever I get all high and mighty about bad drivers, I try to imagine how I would feel if one of my children were the driver. That tempers my judgment. Finally, crashes like this should keep no one from cycling, any more than a fatal car crash in the news should keep anyone from driving. This should be a learning experience for all of us, both in how we drive and how we ride. We can change what we ourselves do - we cannot change what others do, at least not by much. I've learned a lot from A&S about how to ride more safely and how to drive more safely. The best way to honor Mr. Gast is by learning from his death.

Last edited by Kurt Erlenbach; 08-30-12 at 08:11 PM. Reason: Changed an "accident" to a "crash" for accuracy
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Old 08-30-12, 08:01 PM   #100
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This just makes me sick and not want to ride my bike anymore. The more I see this stuff the more I feel like buying a car for my own safety.
I've never owned a car. I may save money with gas and what not but would you lose you life for it? Will all that matter when your dead?

Sorry to hear this. No one deserves what this 27 year old got.

Ugh, that's the worst attitude ever. Just the fact that this story about a cyclist getting killed is getting so much attention should show you how rare it is.
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