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-   -   Photos from fatal bike crash in Cincy this morning (http://www.bikeforums.net/advocacy-safety/842547-photos-fatal-bike-crash-cincy-morning.html)

Kurt Erlenbach 08-31-12 02:46 PM

And thanks to Steve Magas for posting those additional details. Steve took the photos in my original post.

B. Carfree 08-31-12 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kactus (Post 14677216)
Science has shown that our judgment has not fully developed until our mid to late 20's... should people younger than 25 be prohibited from driving? Also our reflexes start to deteriorate after 40... should everyone over 40 be prohibited from driving? I can see it now; only people between 25 and 40 in perfect health can drive. So basically this would only be active duty Air Force pilots!

We may well be moving in that direction and I support it. Even AAA, the supreme motorist apology organization, has come out in favor of graduated licenses for people under the age of 25. I believe the odds of being injured by a motorist in America during an average lifetime currently stand at around 50%. Something is obviously broken with our system.

Kactus 08-31-12 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dpeters11 (Post 14677485)
Even the Air Force allows their pilots to have up to 20/70 vision as long as it's correctable to 20/20, at least for a normal pilot. The Navy I think is more strict. So maybe driving would be limited to current Blue Angels.

I think we've identified the solution to gridlock! :)

truthseeker14 08-31-12 08:08 PM

Here's a link to a blog that gives a poignant summary of this sad story. http://www.blogotr.com/otr/riding-to...r-andrew-gast/ There is a photo of his bike in his loft apartment, and it clearly shows at least one rear light attached.

On the link there is a clear picture of the mangled bike with its seat stays snapped. Not that this really helps, but I was wondering, do you think if the bike had a steel frame the outcome of the crash would have been different? I can imagine if the bike was steel, the stays would have held and the car could have propelled the bike forward more as opposed to flipping him onto the car.

BikeLawyer 08-31-12 09:34 PM

A steel bike would have resulted in a different crash... a fixed gear would have resulted in a different crash... a shorter or taller man or woman = different crash... different vehicle= different crash. I had an interesting case where a teacher rode a fixie to school every day... he was rear-ended at a pretty good clip... the crash caused him to go up into the air and he vividly recalls seeing the car PASS UNDERNEATH HIM before he hit the ground... bad injuries- back fracture, horrible flesh wound on his foot, shoulder injuries = but alive... and, a few years later, riding solo through Alaska. He was a physics teacher and speculated that the way the fixie was struck, directly from behind with the bumper grabbing the rear wheel, stopped everything and caused him to be catapulted up rather than onto the hood. I have a case set for trial in a few weeks - 14 year old girl hit by a passing car - same type damage pattern to the car as this one - with the smashed windshield and head injuries- she was on a very heavy Roadmaster steel frame - this smashed windshield shows up in many crashes... sometimes folks survive with few injuries, sometimes serious injuries, sometimes they are killed... I think it is a matter of inches, ounces and milliseconds which separates them, frankly...

Kactus 08-31-12 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by truthseeker14 (Post 14678604)
Not that this really helps, but I was wondering, do you think if the bike had a steel frame the outcome of the crash would have been different? I can imagine if the bike was steel, the stays would have held and the car could have propelled the bike forward more as opposed to flipping him onto the car.

The bike was propelled forward...it was the rider that stayed stationary, striking the windshield of the car as the car moved forward.

BikeLawyer 09-01-12 11:50 AM

New Blog Post & Photos from Cincinnati Crash
 
My 2 cents on what we know so far on the Cincinnati crash, based on my observations at the scene before the bike and car were separated and later in the day, when I went back to the scene to observe the police marking paint in some detail...

Steve Magas

http://www.ohiobikelawyer.com/bike-l...close-to-home/

surgeonstone 09-01-12 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CharlesZ (Post 14669576)
Huge fact-- it was dark out. . Does anyone believe riding at night is safe?

Absolutely, I ride with this package http://store.dinottelighting.com/din...ight-p177.aspx and feel safer than in the daylight. The rear light is so bright, I find traffic giving me a much wider berth when passing than the average vehicle during the day. So pronounced is this effect that I have started using the taillight at all times, day or night. The front light allows me to see the road very clearly and potholes etc. are seen better at night by far than going through a sun dappled forested area during the day.

BikeLawyer 09-01-12 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by surgeonstone (Post 14680464)
Absolutely, I ride with this package http://store.dinottelighting.com/din...ight-p177.aspx and feel safer than in the daylight. The rear light is so bright, I find traffic giving me a much wider berth when passing than the average vehicle during the day. So pronounced is this effect that I have started using the taillight at all times, day or night. The front light allows me to see the road very clearly and potholes etc. are seen better at night by far than going through a sun dappled forested area during the day.

Great points
- There are OUTSTANDING bright light packages available for cyclists
- Riding with running lights during the DAY is a great idea...

I've written for 20+ years that "conspicuity" is critical for cyclists...
Steve Magas

surgeonstone 09-01-12 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hoshnasi (Post 14676695)
This is false, and patently against what the founding fathers had in mind regarding the country. I'll speak no more politics in this thread, just leave a link which you can go read.Watch the video in particular.

This is excerpted from the Ohio drivers manual and is found in all other states as well. Clearly you are wrong. It (driving) is a privilege that can be taken away.

"Checking a driving record is not difficult if you are requesting your own ... Your driving record has a significant impact on your insurance cost and even ... How to Increase the Points on My DMV Driving Record. Driving is a privilege, not a right. ... In Ohio, drivers can be assessed two, four, or six-point penalties, depending on ..."

CharlesZ 09-03-12 07:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by surgeonstone (Post 14680464)
Absolutely, I ride with this package http://store.dinottelighting.com/din...ight-p177.aspx and feel safer than in the daylight. The rear light is so bright, I find traffic giving me a much wider berth when passing than the average vehicle during the day. So pronounced is this effect that I have started using the taillight at all times, day or night. The front light allows me to see the road very clearly and potholes etc. are seen better at night by far than going through a sun dappled forested area during the day.

I can't see as well at night as I can in the day, light or no light. Yet I do ride with lights during the day. Question--is it better to use the solid light or strobe mode when using my lights during daylight riding?

I-Like-To-Bike 09-03-12 08:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by surgeonstone (Post 14680482)
This is excerpted from the Ohio drivers manual and is found in all other states as well. Clearly you are wrong. It (driving) is a privilege that can be taken away.

FYI, the various states' Driver's Manuals are not necessarily accurate reflections of "The Law" nor the constitution of the various States giving or taking away citizens' rights and privileges.

genec 09-03-12 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike (Post 14685735)
FYI, the various states' Driver's Manuals are not necessarily accurate reflections of "The Law" nor the constitution of the various States giving or taking away citizens' rights and privileges.

Indeed the manuals are not the best resource, however, was there anything incorrect in the conveyed message that "driving is a privilege and not a right?"

Kurt Erlenbach 09-03-12 11:18 AM

Whether driving is a right of a privilege is somewhat beside the point. Once you "earn" the right by obtaining a DL, it can't be taken away without a procedure that comports with due process. Usually that's the traffic ticket process - sometimes it's a different process when the driver becomes unsafe. Here is what the Florida Supreme Court said about it last year: "Whether denominated a 'right' or a 'privilege,' the loss of a driver's license is most definitely an extreme hardship. In Bell v. Burson, 402 U.S. 535, 539 (1971), the United States Supreme Court stated: 'Once licenses are issued . . . their continued possession may become essential in the pursuit of a livelihood.' In the almost forty years since Bell was decided, driving has become an increasingly important part of American life and a near necessity in obtaining and maintaining employment. The Bell Court explained:
Suspension of issued licenses thus involves state action that adjudicates important interests of the licensees. In such cases the licenses are not to be taken away without that procedural due process required by the Fourteenth Amendment. This is but an application of the general proposition that relevant constitutional restraints limit state power to terminate an entitlement whether the entitlement is denominated a 'right' or a 'privilege.'"

DHSMV v. Hernandez, 74 So. 3d 1070 (Fla. 2011), 36 F.L.W. S648 (11/10/2011)

I-Like-To-Bike 09-03-12 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurt Erlenbach (Post 14686314)
Whether driving is a right of a privilege is somewhat beside the point. Once you "earn" the right by obtaining a DL, it can't be taken away without a procedure that comports with due process. Usually that's the traffic ticket process - sometimes it's a different process when the driver becomes unsafe. Here is what the Florida Supreme Court said about it last year: "Whether denominated a 'right' or a 'privilege,' the loss of a driver's license is most definitely an extreme hardship. In Bell v. Burson, 402 U.S. 535, 539 (1971), the United States Supreme Court

Thanx Kurt, we needed that.

Commodus 09-03-12 12:09 PM

The process of getting a parking ticket seems like a very different kind of offense than any other that could lead to having a right revoked.

Is there any other right that can be taken away through such mundane offenses? Although I'm certain that Kurt's post is correct, and accurate, calling it a right in absolute terms seems wrong somehow. Our other rights can only be affected in extraordinary circumstances.

Kactus 09-03-12 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CharlesZ (Post 14685634)
Question--is it better to use the solid light or strobe mode when using my lights during daylight riding?

I'm not aware of any studies, but from 10+ years of working in and around traffic I've found strobing (the faster the better) lights to be more effective.

I-Like-To-Bike 09-03-12 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Commodus (Post 14686478)
The process of getting a parking ticket seems like a very different kind of offense than any other that could lead to having a right revoked.

Is there any other right that can be taken away through such mundane offenses?

Smoking/possessing a joint or some other morally taboo object at home could cause an individual to lose all rights and years of freedom in some locations.

Commodus 09-03-12 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike (Post 14686529)
Smoking/possessing a joint or some other morally taboo object at home could cause an individual to lose all rights and years of freedom in some locations.

Hmm that's a really good point. Nobody's getting hurt and yet your most essential rights can be taken away.

alhedges 09-03-12 02:18 PM

In normal English, a "privilege" often refers to something that is granted on sufferance and can be revoked at any time; in this sense it has a different meaning from right.

In legal usage, "privilege" and "right" are basically synonymous - i.e., doctor-patient privilege; attorney-client privilege; the privilege against self incrimination.

Kurt Erlenbach 09-03-12 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Commodus (Post 14686478)
The process of getting a parking ticket seems like a very different kind of offense than any other that could lead to having a right revoked.

Is there any other right that can be taken away through such mundane offenses? Although I'm certain that Kurt's post is correct, and accurate, calling it a right in absolute terms seems wrong somehow. Our other rights can only be affected in extraordinary circumstances.

I spend a fair amount of time each week dealing with people who have lost their driver's license due to their failure to pay child support. Now, many state require a state-issued ID to vote. Most of the time that's a DL, though others will work. Losing the right to vote when a person loses their DL is quite a hit. The distinction between a "right" and a "privilege" is getting blurred in the US.

TheHen 09-03-12 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurt Erlenbach (Post 14686943)
I spend a fair amount of time each week dealing with people who have lost their driver's license due to their failure to pay child support. Now, many state require a state-issued ID to vote. Most of the time that's a DL, though others will work. Losing the right to vote when a person loses their DL is quite a hit. The distinction between a "right" and a "privilege" is getting blurred in the US.

Are you trying to tell us that FL doesn't issue state ID cards or that these ID cards are somehow more difficult to obtain than a driver's license? If FL does indeed issue state ID cards, like every other state I have ever lived in, then how exactly does a scofflaw motorist lose their right to vote when their driving privilege is revoked?

SnowJob 09-03-12 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BikeLawyer
What happened? To me, just looking at the scene, it appears that the motorist "didn't see" the bike/rider and just ran the guy down from behind. Speed differential had to be pretty big, I think, given the damage to the car and that fact that it killed the rider... from one news story I read, the rider was a big guy, like 6'2" - It appeared to me that he slid up the hood, hit the windshield with body and snapped his head back onto the roof, near the point where the three roof lines come together... a very strong point on the roof. You can see the indentation on the roof where his head clearly hit. There were "gouge" marks on the pavement which were highlighted by the orange paint - these were to the right of the white line. it appeared to me, from the marks and paint, that the point of impact was likely very very close to the white line, if not to the right of it...

Jesus.

I hope the cyclist's family is doing okay.

Any good local cycling advocacy orgs in that area that would benefit from donations? I'm guessing that there are people here who live far away but who want to show solidarity in some way.

Kurt Erlenbach 09-03-12 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheHen (Post 14686975)
Are you trying to tell us that FL doesn't issue state ID cards or that these ID cards are somehow more difficult to obtain than a driver's license? If FL does indeed issue state ID cards, like every other state I have ever lived in, then how exactly does a scofflaw motorist lose their right to vote when their driving privilege is revoked?

Florida does, but they are not free, and it takes additional ID, like a birth certificate, to get one. For some folks there's a terrible downward spiral they get into when they lose their DL, lose other ID, and can't get a social security card resulting in not being able to get a job. It's a bigger problem than most folks realize.

B. Carfree 09-03-12 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheHen (Post 14686975)
Are you trying to tell us that FL doesn't issue state ID cards or that these ID cards are somehow more difficult to obtain than a driver's license? If FL does indeed issue state ID cards, like every other state I have ever lived in, then how exactly does a scofflaw motorist lose their right to vote when their driving privilege is revoked?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurt Erlenbach (Post 14687152)
Florida does, but they are not free, and it takes additional ID, like a birth certificate, to get one. For some folks there's a terrible downward spiral they get into when they lose their DL, lose other ID, and can't get a social security card resulting in not being able to get a job. It's a bigger problem than most folks realize.

I had to renew my OR driver's license a couple years ago (Eight years between renewals and there is no testing whatsoever. Ouch!). It also wasn't free and I also had to provide a birth certificate, although I don't recall if I had to show a copy of my social security card. In fact, they wouldn't accept the original birth certificate that had been given to my mom when I was born because it was a photocopy (that was brand new technology back then), so I had to obtain a new one, which also wasn't free. The process would have been the same whether I was getting a state ID card or renewing my CDL. Where is this onerous burden being placed on motorists who lose their licenses due to their refusal to follow the law? If they previously had a license, then they should have all the paperwork required for a state ID card.

I'm missing the spiral. Perhaps the real problem is these are people who just refuse to inconvenience themselves with things like following laws that are in place to save lives and when they are caught out they have a tantrum and self-destruct. I, for one, have no sympathy whatsoever for anyone whose driving habits are so dangerous that they manage to lose their license.


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