iheartbacon

So how are we, as cyclists, going to deal with the electric cars that are starting to take root. In my little town of 20K there are two Nissan Leafs that I know of. They're very cool cars (I happen to be a gadget freak) and they run, near as makes no difference, silently. Personally I think it would be a good idea if the cars were mandated to make some sort of noise. I don't know what kind but I'm sure something can be engineered. The first time I ran into a Leaf it was like a Japanese sub sneaking up on me. I didn't know it was there until it passed me. Now that I have a mirror it's better, but as I was heading east to go home I couldn't make out much because of the sun glare. A Prius running on electric snuck up on me. You can say what you want about rednecks in suped up trucks, but at least you can hear them 4 blocks away.

Daves_Not_Here

My opinion is to deal with them just like motorists deal with them (and like you said) -- see them in your mirror.

Of course, that doesn't work for blind pedestrians
https://online.wsj.com/article/SB1171..._editors_picks

Metal Man

The Leaf does make an artificial noise at speeds below about 20MPH above that there is tire and other noise.

B. Carfree

I agree. The dominant noise I hear from cars, be they electric or diesel, is the tires on the road and the air being moved by the body. I've never had any problem hearing the electric cars that have overtaken me because of those noises. However, I can see where that would be an issue in very low speed situations, but at low speeds my chances of being hit are lower and my chances of being injured if I am hit are also low.

Now, as a person with lungs who happens to put them to use, I do have an issue with the increased coal burning that will result from increased use of electric cars. At least that will be generated many miles from me as opposed to being spewn directly into my face.

iheartbacon

I must be hard of hearing because I can only hear engine noise well. Probably all those rock concerts.

Myosmith

The sugar beet trucks around here are equipped with a chirping device (supposedly to prevent collisions with deer) that sounds like a cross between a psychotic robot parakeet and fingernails on a chalkboard. I don't know how well it works for deer but you can hear them coming from a half mile away. Personally, I appreciate the quite running of hybrid and electric vehicles.

rekmeyata

Ok, so what's all the buzz about?

3alarmer 

I have a LEAF. It's a swell little car. I play the stereo system
at excessive volumes with Springsteen or the Dead as I drive
around town, so I'm pretty sure I'm making more noise than the
average car you encounter.

I consider it a civic duty....................................

If you think about it, hearing a car coming up on you that
you can't see tells you very little about whether it will be
the one that hits you. You'll hear it right up until the impact.

Metal Man

I have a Leaf too, haven't hit a bike yet.

iheartbacon

Is the Leaf as awesome as I think it is? If I could drive and had the money to own a car it's on my short list. I like the Scion IQ too even though it's not electric. Maybe I am hard of hearing, I can't hear electric cars and my house mates are always telling me to turn the music/TV down.

Monster Pete

Back in the early days of motoring, internal combustion had to compete with both electric and steam propulsion. Only IC offered instant starting and quick refueling so emerged as the winner. Today battery technology is still what's holding back the electric car. For a long time in this country, milk was always delivered in urban areas by battery-powered milk floats, which suited the short-range, stop/start driving they did.

Pure-electric is great if you need a car for short distances and pottering around town, but not much good for long journeys. Until the range is great enough, and the recharge times short enough, they'll just never be able to practically replace an engine-driven car. For the single-car owner, a plug-in hybrid is about as close as is practical to electrification IMO. Of course, if everyone bought an electric car, the power grid would need some serious upgrading to cope with millions of commuters coming home and plugging their cars in to charge.

In any case, tyre noise is a significant factor unless the car is moving slowly, and at those speeds you're probably close to matching its speed on a bike anyway.

sauerwald

I object to noise pollution as much as air pollution. Adding things to vehicles to make them make more noise should be illegal. That includes the muffler systems on some motorcycles that make a small engine so noisy that you can't hear other sounds around you. If you have to hear the roar of an engine to be aware of a couple thousand pounds of steel approaching, the problem is not with the motor vehicle.

Commodus

I have no particular interest in hearing the cars behind me, beside me, or anywhere. I don't understand the issue here.

I-Like-To-Bike

Me neither. Thatz why Walkman, DiscMan and mp3 players were invented, doncha know.

enigmaT120

The tire sound is all the sound I need. Even normal modern cars have such quiet motors that I hear their tires before anything else. I like quiet machines.

dougmc

It's really quite quiet. Comparing it to a motorcycle where somebody has modified it to make it much louder isn't fair -- it's nowhere near that loud.

I don't really care about hearing cars behind me either when I'm riding, but I think the noise was added more for pedestrians than cyclists.

Metal Man

Monster Pete without trying to start a war, your post is very typical of someone who doesn't own an electric car. It reads much like the argument a non cyclist might try to make that biking is too dangerous or for kids only.
You're right a thousand mile trip in an electric would be a little hard at this point. The Leaf is not our only car, but can you guess which one gets the most use? That's right, the one that will go 100 miles for just over $2, doesn't need oil or filters, belts, starters, exhaust, clutches, well, you get the idea.

I believe the power grid argument is a non issue. Did electric stoves, water heaters, coffee pots or big screen TV's crash the grid? It takes about 25 years to turn over the car fleet in the US so there is plenty of time to upgrade if needed. Off peak discounts can spread out the use if needed.
What would happen if EVERYONE wanted to fill up their gas cars at the same time one day?

spivonious

Tire noise is way louder than engine noise these days (except under heavy acceleration), so it doesn't worry me.

For those with Leafs, what kind of range are you getting with normal driving? I've read very mixed reports, with some getting the reported 100 miles, and others barely scraping out 40 miles.

3alarmer 

Yes....................I feel blessed. Light, fast, stable, handling package, superb sound system, torques from zero.
The first maintenance interval was at 7500 miles for tire rotation........................that's all, just tire rotation.

3alarmer 

The people getting 40 miles are either driving at 90mph or live in Minnesota and are using them in the winter.

Here in Norcal, I think I can get about 110 on a full charge, but most of my driving is in the urban environment
of the state capital, so I have never pushed it that far...........there are charging docks in some of the city garages
here, and I use them as well as home juice.

All I can tell you is it's probably not for you if you have a 50 mile commute, unless you have a place to charge at work.
Also, i can see where there might be issues with very cold weather, otherwise it works as advertised.

There's one guy who commutes from here to Napa in one, which is a pretty good stretch. He charges it at work.

rekmeyata

There isn't a whole lot to maintain on an electric car. I think those things are idea for around town, but forget it for going out of town. The 138 range (or 69 miles one way) is under idea conditions that are rarely if ever meant in real life; closer estimates are 68 miles (or 34 miles one way). So it forces you to buy another car for those out of town trips, or rent a car. You also don't want to stuck in a prolong traffic jam in the winter. Also keep in mind all mileage figures are based on a brand new battery, as the battery ages the mileage distance slowly drop. And Nissan had gotten reports of major battery life loss in hot climates meaning the battery was damaged and the owners could not fully charge the battery. The battery loss was 15% in normal climates over a 2 year period, but was averaging 63% in just 2 years in places like Phoenix. https://www.greencarreports.com/news/...n-hot-climates and read the comments.

spivonious

I imagine once the heater is running non-stop, the battery drains pretty quickly since there's no engine heat to redirect. I think the Volt is the best idea. Full electric car with a gas generator on-board.

rekmeyata

I agree, I wouldn't buy an all electric car. But to be quite honest with all of you, I won't buy any modern car!!! I prefer to do most of my own work on my cars and the new ones are doing their best to prevent back yard mechanics from fooling with them, then add in the cost of the tools to try to keep up with their ever changing tooling, cost of parts especially electronic parts, major component repair is stupidly expensive, have to tear apart half the front of a car just to get to a water pump or alternator, I don't have that kind of patience or the money to keep up so I don't bother trying anymore.

My newest vehcile is a 98 and only got that because my wife demanded a pickup with a supercab, so I found a basic 6 cyl F150 that had 15,000 miles on it, it now has 32,000 Problem with that truck, the engine has poorly designed lifter rods and the little caps on the top wear and break off making engine noise of course, my neighbor is having the same problem with his newer truck that has the same engine. After 100 years of making engines they still can't figure out how to make one last! I replace one of the rods about 4 months ago now another has started, the rods are cheap but it's the headache of doing it that I don't forward to, so this time I may just replace all of them instead of waiting for another. Plus I don't like the timing belt crap they use today where it's mandatory to replace them every 75 to 100k miles at a cost of over $1,200. They use rubber belts to save fuel, really? to save a 1/10th of gallon of fuel every 25 miles? You would spend far less in fuel over 100,000 miles if they use chains then the cost of replacing the rubber belt!!

New 7 and especially 8 speed automatics are horrendous to pay to have rebuilt, the cost will be around $6,000 and they don't last as long has the older less geared versions.

No thanks, I'll stick to driving my 72 Chrysler Newport everywhere I go, that thing won't break and if does its cheap to fix, and I can haul 6 people around with room to stretch your legs and arms out front or back, and can carry their luggage in the trunk!! and I now get 21mpg in it, there's new cars out there that aren't doing as good or the same.

Monster Pete

Like I said, it's great for short journeys, and if you can have two cars, one electric and one IC is ideal. The greatly reduced maintenance of an electric car is certainly a huge advantage- the only drivetrain component likely to need replacement is the battery at the end of its life.

I guess overnight slow charging from a normal socket would place less of a demand on the system. The problems would occur if too many people wanted to use high-power fast chargers, in order to have a car ready to go 'just in case'.

A similar situation does happen with engine-driven cars if there's a fuel shortage. A while ago in the UK someone, somewhere announced that there might be a temporary shortage of fuel but that we shouldn't be concerned. Cue everyone attempting to fill their tank (and a few jerrycans as well), resulting in an actual shortage due to fuel stations not being able to keep up with demand, even though supply wasn't really affected.

I'm all for the development of alternatives to the internal-combustion engine, but like I said, the big problem is the range limitation. If you're restricted to one car, electric power just isn't that practical at the moment. With improvements to batteries and better infrastructure to support them though electric power would definitely be the way forward. Some kind of battery-swap system would seem to be ideal, though for this to work batteries would need to be standardised between manufacturers.

dougmc

A many horsepower electric motor puts out a fair amount of heat. Nowhere near as much as a many horsepower IC engine, of course, but if they're careful about not wasting so much of it when it's needed to heat the inside of the car (like they do with IC engine cars because they can) it ought to be possible to use heat from the motor to heat the inside of the car.

For example, assuming a 80% efficient motor averaging 30 hp -- that's going to produce about 4600 watts of heat -- that's about three hair dryers worth. That's probably comparable to what a typical car heater can produce in a standard car. The trick then is to make a cooling system that can vent that heat outside or send most of it to the inside of the car as needed -- not a trivial thing, but not undoable either.

That said, the electric cars I've seen (and I haven't looked carefully at the newer ones, just to be clear) had a small gasoline tank to run the heater -- they didn't have an electric heater, their heater was powered by gas. And this was on completely electric cars -- not even an plugin hybrid.