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Old 02-16-13, 09:15 PM   #51
009jim
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Old 02-16-13, 10:52 PM   #52
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So you favor the death penalty for attempted murder, same a first degree murder?
While I'm not going to start a debate on the death penalty, I do support the same penalty for attempted first degree murder as for first degree murder. In both cases you took action with the intent of killing someone. If you and I each shoot someone with premeditated, willful and deliberate intent to kill and your victim dies but mine makes it to surgery and survives, should I receive a lesser sentence just because you are a better shot than I?

Actually in several states the maximum penalty for both first degree murder and first degree attempted murder is life in prison. The US Federal Government can levy the death penalty in cases involving the attempted murder of a federal witness, juror, or court officer. In Wisconsin, first degree murder and attempted first degree murder are actually the same charge.

Have we gotten a bit off subject here, or are we debating whether or not cyclists should be ticketed for attempted murder?

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Old 02-17-13, 04:23 AM   #53
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Have we gotten a bit off subject here, or are we debating whether or not cyclists should be ticketed for attempted murder?
It was not me that started with examples of driving 100 mph in a school zone. So why start throwing the off topic crap at me, unless you think it is cyclist riding 100 mph in a school zone
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Old 02-17-13, 07:38 AM   #54
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Calm down CB, I see your point, but driving a car through a school zone at 100 mph, while extreme, is still an example of blatant disregard for public safety by violation of a traffic law, which is still related to the OPs original question as well as a response to Angio Grahm's comment about "no harm, no foul". Premeditated homicide of an individual has nothing to do with traffic law or general disregard for public safety and is not a ticketable offense. I responded to your question but now would like to get back to a discussion relating to the OP's question and not hijack the thread into a debate on capital punishment.

I still assert that cyclists or motorists should be cited for behavior that violates the law and puts others at unreasonable and preventable risk, and that the fact that no actual harm was done does not excuse the action that caused that risk. Illegal behavior (we're still talking traffic violations here) in which due regard for public safety was displayed warrant no more than a warning. A cyclist who does a slow-n-go at a stop sign on an otherwise empty intersection should not receive the citation that a cyclist who blows through a crowded crosswalk against a red light at 30 mph should, nor should a motorist who does a slow-n-go right on red be ticketed in the same manner as someone who blasts through a school zone at high speed. The punishment should fit the violation and the degree to which it goes against public interest.

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Hitting a pedestrian and not yielding to a pedestrian in a crosswalk or on a sidewalk.
Now here is some common ground on which we both agree.

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Old 02-17-13, 07:51 AM   #55
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For riding fixies with no brakes.

Why confine this to bikes? Why not ticket cars too?
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Old 02-17-13, 08:04 AM   #56
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Please allow me to clarify my position, I didn't intend my statement to mean that fines should be the same for cars and bikes or that all offenses deserved the same punishment. What I did intend is that the same offense should receive the same punishment whether or not injury occurred. For example. Two cyclists riding side by side at high speed blow a stop light and fly through a crowded crosswalk. One rider narrowly misses a pedestrian while his riding partner clips her knocking her to the ground causing an injury (broken wrist for argument's sake). Both riders blew the same stop light and put the same pedestrians at risk but only one actually made contact. Should the rider who missed the pedestrian by an inch by pure luck get off scott free while is partner gets the book thrown at him? IMHO, No, the action and intent was the same for both riders and both showed blatant disregard for the safety of the pedestrian, so both should be ticketed under traffic/criminal law. Civil court will decide who is responsible for the injured party's lost wages, medical bills, and pain and suffering.

Other side of the coin: Should the motor vehicle passenger who throws a beer bottle at the head of a cyclist and misses receive less of a ticket than a passenger who throws and hits his mark? Same offense = Same punishment, or at least it should.
Yes, exactly: If it can reasonably be anticipated that the action could cause harm then it should be punished whether or not it did cause harm. By not punishing the actor who did not cause harm, you tend to reinforce the bad behavior.
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Old 02-17-13, 08:31 AM   #57
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for riding a BMX style bike with the seat all the way down so your knees hit you in the chin
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Old 02-17-13, 08:46 AM   #58
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I actually wish we had a different ticketing regime for bikes than for cars - I'd prefer that most traffic infractions committed on a bike have lower fines, but be enforced more frequently.
I agree. Not just because of the different danger levels, but also because in my area most people who ride bikes regularly do it as their only means of transport because they can't afford a car. A $20 ticket means a lot when it's more than a week's worth of groceries.
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Old 02-17-13, 11:10 AM   #59
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for riding a BMX style bike with the seat all the way down so your knees hit you in the chin
While riding at night with no lights in the suicide lane of a 45 mph 5 laner out by the airport. One day I want to introduce myself to the guy I've seen doing this. He would be interesting to know.
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Old 02-17-13, 11:24 AM   #60
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I agree. Not just because of the different danger levels, but also because in my area most people who ride bikes regularly do it as their only means of transport because they can't afford a car. A $20 ticket means a lot when it's more than a week's worth of groceries.
I agree as well, but I have some real doubts about the ability of some LEOs to be objective about whether an infraction was significant, i.e. put someone at risk, or not. For instance, if I sprint for a yellow and end up zipping through after it turns red, I probably need to be talked to. However, the LEO should listen to my reasoning, which is: "I really needed to get through that intersection because I have a very difficult merge to the left coming up. If I get through and leave the cars stopped behind me it is very much safer for me to move across 2 otherwise crowded lanes. If I had stopped for the light I would have had to contend with fairly aggressive motorists jockeying for lanes and it scares the crap out of me".

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Old 02-17-13, 05:59 PM   #61
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Concerning the "No Harm, No Fowl, No Ticket" argument.

I'd like to weigh in on that one. I do agree that attempted murder is the same as murder and should be treated accordingly (in appropriate degrees of course, such as a hot blooded crime of passion vs. a premeditated cold blooded murder). On the other end of the spectrum though, if a driver (of any vehicle) runs a red light at an intersection out in the middle of know-where flat land farm country in broad daylight without another vehicle in sight in any direction for miles in a slow, check, and then roll through" yield sign style it is kind of ridiculous for him to get a $100+ red light camera automatic ticket in his mail a couple days later.

I guess I would put my vote down as that issuing tickets where there was a collision accident caused by the cyclist misbehavior (or any other driver of a vehicle on the road who's choice to violate the rules of the roads results in an accident causing harm to another person or their property) should be the first priority to issue tickets. I know of a few cases locally where cyclists have caused accidents and the cops were called to the scene and the cyclist was still there when they got there and they didn't write a ticket. That's stupid if there is a collision accident caused by a drivers misbehavior and scoff law attitude for the rules of the road and you have to guy dead to rights because your looking right at the accident he caused with witnesses then you write him a ticket !!! To not do so is not doing your job if your a cop on the scene.

After that's first priority is taken care of with those who actually do cause accidents and harm then we can move onto those who's mis-behavior and scoff law attitude could but have not yet caused problems. And when you do move onto them you take the worst offenders first. You fry the fish that jump right into your pan first, then you go try to catch and fry the big fish next, and if you still have time and resources available after that then you start working on the little fish.
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Old 02-18-13, 07:32 AM   #62
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So in MHL states, cyclist should have to wear DOT approved motorcycle helmets, PLUS have brake lights, amber turn signal lights, horns of ***dBa, license plates, registration, vehicle insurance, require a drivers license, annual vehicle inspection, etc.?

helmet to meet appropriate safety standards, appropriate lights and safety glasses

basic motorcycle requirements.
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Old 02-18-13, 08:02 AM   #63
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What bicycle rider behavior would you like to see the police actively ticketing?
Causing an accident.

I live in a city where cycling exists under pure anarchy. Some things annoy me (salmon, no lights) but all in all, I enjoy the lawlessness and the freedom.

When every cop is also an avid cycling commuter, I will gladly entertain arguments otherwise.

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Old 02-18-13, 05:37 PM   #64
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Seriously? What should we be ticketed for? While anything that breaks the law of course. We demand to share the roads with cars... and in most cases we have legal grounds. But this line of thinking that would suggest somehow that not all road laws should be applied to us is crap. If we share the road -- then we share the road -- and we adhere to the laws of that road.
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Old 02-18-13, 06:28 PM   #65
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Yes. We should make all new laws with proper consideration for ALL road users - sensible laws - them i shall consider obeying a few of them.
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Old 02-18-13, 10:16 PM   #66
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I love the ones who use the tired old excuse of what others do whether on foot, on 2 or on 4 or more wheels. The rules of the road are the rules of the road. Violate any of them you choose and when you do be prepared to possibly get a ticket. If/when you get the ticket shut up. Don't come in here or go anywhere else and complain/whine/moan/bltch/cry about it when you reap the consequence for being lazy/stupid/arrogant/inattentive/whatever. So bottom line is the option to write tickets for violations whatever they may be whenever they are earned.
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Old 02-18-13, 11:05 PM   #67
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Just because it's happened it me numerous time. People going the wrong way in a bike lane which clearly has an arrow pointing you which way to go in the bike lane. I commute to my college campus from an apartment complex right off the freeway so theres a ton of traffic when I leave to go to class and at least once a week I almost get pushed into traffic speeding past me because someone doesnt want to take the extra minute to get across the street to the proper bike lane.


ARGH. sorry for the rant I just hate those bikers who dont know how to ride on the road properly. The least they can do is do some research
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Old 02-18-13, 11:42 PM   #68
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Seriously? What should we be ticketed for? While anything that breaks the law of course. We demand to share the roads with cars... and in most cases we have legal grounds. But this line of thinking that would suggest somehow that not all road laws should be applied to us is crap. If we share the road -- then we share the road -- and we adhere to the laws of that road.
So you wear a seat belt while riding?
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Old 02-19-13, 12:47 AM   #69
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The rules of the road are the rules of the road.
Bicycles are not motor vehicles. So, the "rules" are not "the rules" after all.

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If/when you get the ticket shut up. Don't come in here or go anywhere else and complain/whine/moan/bltch/cry about it...
I live in a city where the cops pay nearly zero attention to bicycles - as it should be. I have been cycling daily since 1975. New Orleans is full of cyclists. I have never seen even one cyclist in all that time stop for a red light when they didn't have to. We don't stop at stop signs either. We ride contraflow whenever we feel like it. Even on the sidewalks when we get the urge. And guess what? The world keeps turning, the sun rises in the east and sets in the west. The order of the Universe does not seem to be disturbed by even one molecule. I feel sorry for cyclists elsewhere who must interrupt every ride with a bunch of stopping for nothing.

Wanna see how good it works. Go HERE.

If you could walk through walls, would you still use doors? Why?
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Old 02-19-13, 06:04 AM   #70
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Bicycles are not motor vehicles. So, the "rules" are not "the rules" after all.



I live in a city where the cops pay nearly zero attention to bicycles - as it should be. I have been cycling daily since 1975. New Orleans is full of cyclists. I have never seen even one cyclist in all that time stop for a red light when they didn't have to. We don't stop at stop signs either. We ride contraflow whenever we feel like it. Even on the sidewalks when we get the urge. And guess what? The world keeps turning, the sun rises in the east and sets in the west. The order of the Universe does not seem to be disturbed by even one molecule. I feel sorry for cyclists elsewhere who must interrupt every ride with a bunch of stopping for nothing.

Wanna see how good it works. Go HERE.

If you could walk through walls, would you still use doors? Why?
For some people here cycling is part political statement, part religion. For some reason, this necessitates waiting at lights for the full cycle. I think it is one of the most important devotional rituals for the religion.
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Old 02-19-13, 08:51 AM   #71
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^^ i like that! ^^
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Old 02-19-13, 11:01 AM   #72
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If I'm not mistaken the topic of this thread was not which rules of the road cyclist should not get away with scott-free for actively ignoring but rather what they should actually get a ticket for.

I understood that to be asking what behavior is worth an actual ticket with money that needs to be paid or having to go to traffic court and not just a warning. Lots of things I think deserve a warning, a whole lot less deserve a ticket.
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Old 02-19-13, 12:25 PM   #73
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Seriously? What should we be ticketed for? While anything that breaks the law of course. We demand to share the roads with cars... and in most cases we have legal grounds. But this line of thinking that would suggest somehow that not all road laws should be applied to us is crap. If we share the road -- then we share the road -- and we adhere to the laws of that road.
You're right, put on your seat belt and display your license plates.
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Old 02-19-13, 01:45 PM   #74
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You're right, put on your seat belt and display your license plates.
Aw, man, I'm already carrying a 12-volt lead-acid battery to power all my lights and horn, and that thing is HEAVY. Now I gotta pile more car stuff on my bike? Oh, well! Anything to show that cars and bikes are EXACTLY THE SAME!
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Old 02-19-13, 01:50 PM   #75
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Aw, man, I'm already carrying a 12-volt lead-acid battery to power all my lights and horn, and that thing is HEAVY. Now I gotta pile more car stuff on my bike? Oh, well! Anything to show that cars and bikes are EXACTLY THE SAME!
Too much tex mex, don't think I'll be able to pass my emissions test.
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