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Old 02-19-13, 02:33 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by GrouchoWretch View Post
Salmoning and blowing stop signs or traffic signals where doing so abrogates another road user's right-of-way.
As long as you have that clause on it, I'm good with that. I follow the rules of the road... mostly. But I also follow the haiku in my sig file.
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Originally Posted by bragi "However, it's never a good idea to overgeneralize."
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Old 02-19-13, 03:13 PM   #77
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^^Yes, that!^^

Traffic regulations (referred to as "laws" here) for cyclists are to establish right-of-way (as far as I am concerned). If I am cycling at 7 AM on a Sunday morning through a deserted Downtown I will likely never have to hit my brakes. The same ride at 5 PM weekdays I shall grant right-of-way as necessary, but my goal is the same - to not stop for "no one" as the haiku above so accurately states.

There are times where I am flying along breaking 10 "laws" a minute, and there are other times where I have to line up like the rest and wait my turn as granted by traffic control furniture.

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Old 02-19-13, 05:04 PM   #78
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Remember how much we used to argue when I first joined the forums?
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Originally Posted by bragi "However, it's never a good idea to overgeneralize."
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Old 02-19-13, 09:29 PM   #79
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Remember how much we used to argue when I first joined the forums?
Every day is a new day to me DH. I don't hold grudges. Clean slate. People change. It often pays to have a short memory. Etc...

(Not a haiku, but as close as I might get to writing one)
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Old 02-19-13, 10:05 PM   #80
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No brakes.
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Old 02-19-13, 10:31 PM   #81
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No brakes.
I almost hate to be that guy but...

No hand brakes? I never rode a fixed gear bike in traffic but my friends riding fixed "no brakes" can stop way faster than my friends riding coaster brake bikes. And the fixie kids have more braking control, even riding no hands.

Or is it absolutely no brakes? Like all of the poor people in my city who can barely afford a beat up WalMart bike that rolls. So they ride slow and drag their feet to stop. Talk about BRAKE SHOES! But at the painfully slow speeds these people travel, actually stopping is not an issue.

How about people like me who have two wonderful working hand brakes on all of my bikes but I strive to never touch them if I don't absolutely have to? I bomb my way to work, or wherever, virtually non-stop regardless of traffic signals slowing only enough to catch the next gap in traffic.

So...the fixed gear kids and the poor people are stopping ten times on the way to work with no brakes, and I am bombing through traffic non-stop most days with perfectly functioning brakes.

Are you referring to the ability to stop the bicycle, or the willingness to do so?

Just because you don't understand it does not mean they can't stop when they want to.

(no offense. sometimes i just feel confrontational. it's late)

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Old 02-19-13, 10:56 PM   #82
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My first reaction was also "same rules of the road for everyone", but, I have to admit, while I'm no JoeyBike, I roll through stop signs and run red lights on my bike whenever and wherever I can, safely. And I wouldn't like being ticketed.

So, while I find salmoning and bike ninjas to be annoying and scary when encounter them while I'm driving a motor vehicle, I can't say I want them ticketed.

However -- once, I was talking with a friend from Palo Alto, CA, who was formerly from Michigan and my wife's college roommate, about the problems cyclists have with incompetent or malicious motorists here; her response was that cyclists in California rode in packs up narrow mountain roads so that motorists could not pass, and would deliberately vandalize vehicles passing close enough to reach, as in smashing sideview mirrors, snapping off radio antennas, and gouging the paint. And here I though everyone in northern California was pro-cycling.

So, I think that kind of cyclist behavior should be ticketed, if it is true.
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Old 02-19-13, 11:45 PM   #83
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However -- once, I was talking with a friend from Palo Alto, CA, who was formerly from Michigan and my wife's college roommate, about the problems cyclists have with incompetent or malicious motorists here; her response was that cyclists in California rode in packs up narrow mountain roads so that motorists could not pass, and would deliberately vandalize vehicles passing close enough to reach, as in smashing sideview mirrors, snapping off radio antennas, and gouging the paint. And here I though everyone in northern California was pro-cycling.

So, I think that kind of cyclist behavior should be ticketed, if it is true.
Not true the way she claims. Palo Alto does have some nice climbing for weekend recreational type cycling. Similar to the recreational Sunday drives many motorist like to take on the same road. Since the road curves and it is not always safe to pass, the cyclist take the full lane to discourage unsafe passing - but that does not always work.

Some anger from cyclist was more directed to efforts to ban cyclist from the road.

Do you really think the police would not arrest cyclist "smashing sideview mirrors, snapping off radio antennas, and gouging the paint". They would be in jail so fast. Have you ever tried "smashing sideview mirrors, snapping off radio antennas, and gouging the paint" of a speeding motorist passing you while riding uphill on a curvy road? And if it were so easy for cyclist to do such things, do you really think that car loving californians would pass a cyclist so close to allow them to do such a thing to their precious?
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Old 02-20-13, 05:59 AM   #84
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Plenty of rambo fantasies on these and other forums, about smashing cars with U-locks (sometimes after the encounter in question)...
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Old 02-20-13, 08:10 AM   #85
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I never rode a fixed gear bike in traffic...I bomb my way to work, or wherever, virtually non-stop regardless of traffic signals...Just because you don't understand it does not mean they can't stop when they want to.
don't start off giving an argument with "I've never done this, but.."

Think of the brake as an anti-lock braking system. As much as your friends and "poor people" (?) say, the brake is the safer and probably quicker way to stop. Its cool (and fun I admit) to skid stop wherever you can, but when you lock up the wheel you're taking longer to stop (not to mention shredding up your tire).
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Old 02-20-13, 08:43 AM   #86
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Think of the brake as an anti-lock braking system. As much as your friends and "poor people" (?) say, the brake is the safer and probably quicker way to stop. Its cool (and fun I admit) to skid stop wherever you can, but when you lock up the wheel you're taking longer to stop (not to mention shredding up your tire).
Again, someone riding a fixie (direct drive) or a junk bike (brakes disconnected because both wheels are badly out of true) can stop without locking up the wheel. Both use the same technique for stopping effectively (enough) - they ride slow enough to stay in control. The poor fellow riding a junker drags his feet and the fixed gear kid gently resists the pedaling motion. Yes, he MIGHT skid a bit but most people have enough survival instinct to ride within their means to stop.

A coaster brake bike has less control over the rear wheel than a fixed gear bike. Almost any emergency stop results in a skid - same as a no-brake fixie, only the coaster brake rider has the false sense of owning a safe brake. In both cases, if the chain comes off (this happens often enough on single speed bikes) neither the fixed gear bike nor the coaster brake bike will have ANY stopping power besides dragging their feet or bailing.

So the safest bike without brakes would be the junker with absolutely no brakes because the rider KNOWS he has no brakes and rides accordingly. Since every stop requires dragging his feet he is never caught by surprise when his brakes fail.

BTW...I rode a fixed gear bike ONCE on a quiet neighborhood street with the potential for a car or two driving by. I had no clue how to stop that thing, so I rode at a speed (crawl) where I was 99% certain I could maneuver or bail without scuffing myself up. Had I continued, as my stopping skills progressed so would my speed up to a point.

As far as effective braking AT SPEED is concerned, like flying down a mountain pass, any bike without two good hand brakes would be very dangerous. So given that pretext, brakeless fixed gear, coaster brakes, and no brakes might be outlawed under such conditions.

Skateboard don't have brakes. Millions of people seem to use then effectively enough.

So it's not really about a physical braking system. It's about ability to stop the vehicle effectively enough. If we outlaw fixed gear bikes without brakes, then we need to recall all of the single speed coaster brake cruisers too. Same effective stopping ability.

Do you think anti-lock brakes stop a car instantly from 70 mph? Some people drive 90. Some follow way too close. It's about behavior and respect for the ability to safely slow down or stop. Either get really, really good brakes or slow down. It's easy.
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Old 02-20-13, 08:49 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by JoeyBike View Post
I almost hate to be that guy but...

No hand brakes? I never rode a fixed gear bike in traffic but my friends riding fixed "no brakes" can stop way faster than my friends riding coaster brake bikes. And the fixie kids have more braking control, even riding no hands.

Or is it absolutely no brakes? Like all of the poor people in my city who can barely afford a beat up WalMart bike that rolls. So they ride slow and drag their feet to stop. Talk about BRAKE SHOES! But at the painfully slow speeds these people travel, actually stopping is not an issue.

How about people like me who have two wonderful working hand brakes on all of my bikes but I strive to never touch them if I don't absolutely have to? I bomb my way to work, or wherever, virtually non-stop regardless of traffic signals slowing only enough to catch the next gap in traffic.

So...the fixed gear kids and the poor people are stopping ten times on the way to work with no brakes, and I am bombing through traffic non-stop most days with perfectly functioning brakes.

Are you referring to the ability to stop the bicycle, or the willingness to do so?

Just because you don't understand it does not mean they can't stop when they want to.

(no offense. sometimes i just feel confrontational. it's late)
Yeah, it must have been late.

Fixed gear no brakes, no hands can stop better than a coaster brake model? Must be true if the "fixed gear kids" (whoever they are) say so. One thing these kids must have is the ability to buffalo the locals with BS about their "abilities".
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Old 02-20-13, 08:49 AM   #88
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How about this fantasy…

On every bike we install a small computer and some machinery, with the money generated from licensing bicycles. We turn them into “smart” bikes. Then download all the local laws that apply to bicycles as a vehicle into the computer. When you fail to follow the law your bike will not function. We could make certain everyone comes to a complete stop at stop signs and traffic lights. Depending on the local rules we could have you stay to the far right on the road, in bike lanes, off sidewalks and from going the wrong way. Lights could come on automatically a night and there could be a special sensor to make sure you are wearing a helmet.

<Sarcasm on>This would ensure everyone is complying fully with the black and white letter of the law.<Sarcasm off>
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Old 02-20-13, 08:52 AM   #89
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In both cases, if the chain comes off (this happens often enough on single speed bikes) neither the fixed gear bike nor the coaster brake bike will have ANY stopping power besides dragging their feet or bailing.
Not true. Some BMXers ride freewheel and brakeless. They stop by reaching around with their leg and jamming their shoe against the tire at the rear brake bridge. Sounds awkward, but once mastered doesn't seem too hard. (I wouldn't do it myself, but those who do seem perfectly comfortable with it.)
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Originally Posted by bragi "However, it's never a good idea to overgeneralize."
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Old 02-20-13, 08:53 AM   #90
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In both cases, if the chain comes off (this happens often enough on single speed bikes) neither the fixed gear bike nor the coaster brake bike will have ANY stopping power besides dragging their feet or bailing.
I've been riding single speed and IGH bikes for 60 years and NEVER had a chain break or fall off while riding. I suppose all bikes stop instantly when the wheels fall off.
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Old 02-20-13, 09:15 AM   #91
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Not everyone maintains their bike chains.
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Old 02-20-13, 09:24 AM   #92
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A coaster brake and a fixed gear have the same available stopping power, with one caveat.

A coaster brake has servo effect, requiring far less pedal force for the same stopping power, meaning it's easier for a rider to use a coaster brake to stop.
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Old 02-20-13, 09:32 AM   #93
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Again, someone riding a fixie (direct drive) or a junk bike (brakes disconnected because both wheels are badly out of true) can stop without locking up the wheel. Both use the same technique for stopping effectively (enough) - they ride slow enough to stay in control. The poor fellow riding a junker drags his feet and the fixed gear kid gently resists the pedaling motion. Yes, he MIGHT skid a bit but most people have enough survival instinct to ride within their means to stop.

A coaster brake bike has less control over the rear wheel than a fixed gear bike. Almost any emergency stop results in a skid - same as a no-brake fixie, only the coaster brake rider has the false sense of owning a safe brake. In both cases, if the chain comes off (this happens often enough on single speed bikes) neither the fixed gear bike nor the coaster brake bike will have ANY stopping power besides dragging their feet or bailing.

So the safest bike without brakes would be the junker with absolutely no brakes because the rider KNOWS he has no brakes and rides accordingly. Since every stop requires dragging his feet he is never caught by surprise when his brakes fail.

BTW...I rode a fixed gear bike ONCE on a quiet neighborhood street with the potential for a car or two driving by. I had no clue how to stop that thing, so I rode at a speed (crawl) where I was 99% certain I could maneuver or bail without scuffing myself up. Had I continued, as my stopping skills progressed so would my speed up to a point.

As far as effective braking AT SPEED is concerned, like flying down a mountain pass, any bike without two good hand brakes would be very dangerous. So given that pretext, brakeless fixed gear, coaster brakes, and no brakes might be outlawed under such conditions.

Skateboard don't have brakes. Millions of people seem to use then effectively enough.

So it's not really about a physical braking system. It's about ability to stop the vehicle effectively enough. If we outlaw fixed gear bikes without brakes, then we need to recall all of the single speed coaster brake cruisers too. Same effective stopping ability.

Do you think anti-lock brakes stop a car instantly from 70 mph? Some people drive 90. Some follow way too close. It's about behavior and respect for the ability to safely slow down or stop. Either get really, really good brakes or slow down. It's easy.
Sweet. No brakes needed if you ride a rickety untrue bike really slow (the "safest bike"). No brakes needed on a fixie even if you have "no CLUE" how to stop it. Brakes only needed when descending a hill. Got it.

I don't think a brake law is required. I just think you need some common sense. Skateboards don't ride in the street with cars. People with no brakes on Wal Mart bikes are not safe. A coaster brake is for more reliable, easy to operate and rely on than your own "know-how" and leg power.

You can argue the semantics of it, but in my opinion, a $15-20 item that could potentially save my life is worth it. I really don't see why you and the fixie people are so opposed to it.
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Old 02-20-13, 09:43 AM   #94
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I've been riding single speed and IGH bikes for 60 years and NEVER had a chain break or fall off while riding. I suppose all bikes stop instantly when the wheels fall off.
I've had it fall off, but only with derailleur-shifted bicycles. Single speed chains are much, much less likely to snap, too, since they are of heavier construction than derailleur chains (especially for 9 speed cassettes and up).
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Old 02-20-13, 09:54 AM   #95
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I have had a chain fall off on single-speed chain on an IGH, when putting high torque in 1st gear, but it was on my recumbent trike, and the chain wasn't properly tensioned. I tensioned it, no more falling off.

Of course, if it's a BSO, odds are good that it's not properly tensioned, and odds are good that the rider won't know HOW to properly tension it.
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Old 02-20-13, 10:35 AM   #96
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I have had a chain fall off on single-speed chain on an IGH, when putting high torque in 1st gear, but it was on my recumbent trike, and the chain wasn't properly tensioned. I tensioned it, no more falling off.

Of course, if it's a BSO, odds are good that it's not properly tensioned, and odds are good that the rider won't know HOW to properly tension it.
And the odds are still low that a chain will come off while riding or stopping on such a bike; and far higher that the person on such a bike can stop it in an emergency than a brakeless bike ridden by one of Joey's kids.
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Old 02-20-13, 10:38 AM   #97
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...
Joey's kids.
Don't they have a Labor Day telethon?
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Old 02-20-13, 10:41 AM   #98
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Don't they have a Labor Day telethon?
Jerry's Kids are not simple minded people who boast with pride about the benefits of riding bikes with no brakes in traffic.

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Old 02-20-13, 11:17 AM   #99
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Personally, I'd go for, "at least two wheels of the bicycle must be equipped with an effective device for bringing the bicycle to a complete stop", or something along those lines. (Written like that to avoid requiring that tadpoles have a rear brake.)

And have standards for "effective device". Like stopping distances.
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Old 02-20-13, 12:11 PM   #100
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Stopping distance at what speed? Many cyclists in my community cant even ride 10mph. Do we penalize the faster crowd or the poor people?

Poor people always get screwed so i know the answer.
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