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-   -   What Should Riders Be Ticketed For? (http://www.bikeforums.net/advocacy-safety/872812-what-should-riders-ticketed.html)

bhtooefr 02-20-13 12:16 PM

You would rate the stopping distance of the bike at, say, 15 mph, on a dry surface. Have the standard set quite loose, and give fines from it to bike co-ops or something to support bicycle maintenance for low-income people.

And, the law would be written to be so weakly enforceable that it could only really be used if a bike didn't have an applicable brake at all, or if the cyclist was involved in an accident due to failure to stop.

GrouchoWretch 02-20-13 12:30 PM

How about everyone takes responsibility for himself?

If you crash because you're riding a bike with no brakes, that's the price you pay, and maybe you learn something.

If you damage property or hurt someone with your bike, you gotta pay for it.

This idea isn't perfect, but it's better than trying to impose car-like regulations on human-powered vehicles with a very low level of liability.

I mean, the administrative apparatus for overseeing bicycle brakes would be more costly and more of a pain than the supposed problem it's trying to cure.

And this is the problem more generally with the idea of ticketing cyclists for violating codes intended for motor vehicles.

I-Like-To-Bike 02-20-13 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeyBike (Post 15296104)
Stopping distance at what speed? Many cyclists in my community cant even ride 10mph. Do we penalize the faster crowd or the poor people?

Poor people always get screwed so i know the answer.

How many of the fixed bike "kids" you champion are the "poor people," unless they are "poor" by their own choice?

bhtooefr 02-20-13 01:25 PM

Around here, almost all cycle commuting is done on "mountain" BSOs, or the odd "cruiser" BSO, all of which came with brakes.

kmv2 02-20-13 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike (Post 15296391)
How many of the fixed bike "kids" you champion are the "poor people," unless they are "poor" by their own choice?

Poor because they spent all their money on tattoos and limited edition fixies :(

asmac 02-20-13 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeyBike (Post 15294339)
(no offense. sometimes i just feel confrontational. it's late)

None taken.

asmac 02-20-13 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrouchoWretch (Post 15296183)
If you crash because you're riding a bike with no brakes, that's the price you pay, and maybe you learn something.

Ummm... you seem to be saying that we should all do whatever we want with no rules or regulations and only if we actually hurt someone should we be held accountable and only for the actual damage caused. Do you really believe that? How far would you take it?

GrouchoWretch 02-20-13 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asmac (Post 15297165)
Ummm... you seem to be saying that we should all do whatever we want with no rules or regulations and only if we actually hurt someone should we be held accountable and only for the actual damage caused. Do you really believe that? How far would you take it?

No, I don't seem to be saying that. I seem to be saying what I said.

asmac 02-20-13 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrouchoWretch (Post 15297176)
No, I don't seem to be saying that. I seem to be saying what I said.

OK... it seems to me that you're saying that we should all do whatever we want with no rules or regulations and only if we actually hurt someone should we be held accountable and only for the actual damage caused. That seems to be a ridiculous idea.

GrouchoWretch 02-20-13 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asmac (Post 15297370)
OK... it seems to me that you're saying that we should all do whatever we want with no rules or regulations and only if we actually hurt someone should we be held accountable and only for the actual damage caused. That seems to be a ridiculous idea.

Yeah well I didn't say that, and I'm not responsible for ridiculous ideas you think up while reading what I actually wrote.

bhtooefr 02-20-13 05:56 PM

Except that kinda is what you said. There's a reason why we have equipment standards, because it's better to not injure someone in the first place, than to injure them and compensate them.

GrouchoWretch 02-20-13 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhtooefr (Post 15297478)
Except that kinda is what you said. There's a reason why we have equipment standards, because it's better to not injure someone in the first place, than to injure them and compensate them.

Uh, no, it isn't "kinda" what I said. It actually isn't what I said at all.

I also didn't say we could flap our arms and fly to the moon.

Good lord.

JoeyBike 02-20-13 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike (Post 15296391)
How many of the fixed bike "kids" you champion are the "poor people," unless they are "poor" by their own choice?

Two different groups altogether.

Fixie kids chose to ride bikes without hand brakes.

Poor people, and we have a lot of them in New Orleans, can't afford a decent bike usually. When wheels get bent hand brakes can't be adjusted they get disconnected. The cost of one decent wheel, brake pads, and a mechanic to do the work is beyond the means of many of our citizens.

More than a quarter of New Orleans residents are living in poverty and more still are living in "asset poverty," lacking the means to support a household at the federal poverty level for three months should they lose their main source of income, a new report from the Corporation for Enterprise Development and the Greater New Orleans Community Data Center finds. (Reference)

So any law, silly as it may seem, causing poor people to fix up their bikes, will immobilize many of our more helpless citizens. Even if the law targets those fixie kids (who don't seem to have ANY trouble staying in control of their machines) the poor will suffer greatly.

I don't see anything wrong with a person without means cycling slowly and dragging their feet to stop. A natural sense of self preservation is their safety net. They don't want to get hurt either.

You want to live in some totalitarian society, there are plenty around.

JoeyBike 02-20-13 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kmv2 (Post 15295479)
Sweet. No brakes needed if you ride a rickety untrue bike really slow

Exactly. You got it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kmv2 (Post 15295479)
No brakes needed on a fixie even if you have "no CLUE" how to stop it.

I do not know one person riding fixed with no brake who is suicidal. By the time they mix it up with auto traffic they can stop better than most "casual" cyclists on comfort bikes, tricycles, or beach cruisers - many of which have brakes way out of adjustment anyway 'cause they bought them at WallyWorld.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kmv2 (Post 15295479)
Skateboards don't ride in the street with cars.

They do where I live. Two guys I work with commute on skateboards when the weather is perfect. Only about one mile, but they ride in the street and have no trouble stopping without brakes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kmv2 (Post 15295479)
I just think you need some common sense.

Any of this starting to sink in and make sense to you?

Quote:

Originally Posted by kmv2 (Post 15295479)
People with no brakes on Wal Mart bikes are not safe. A coaster brake is for more reliable, easy to operate and rely on than your own "know-how" and leg power.

You mean a coaster brake bike in good repair? How do we police that?

Quote:

Originally Posted by kmv2 (Post 15295479)

You can argue the semantics of it, but in my opinion, a $15-20 item that could potentially save my life is worth it. I really don't see why you and the fixie people are so opposed to it.

I really couldn't care less about fixie people other than protecting their freedom from zealots who don't know anything about them other than second hand YouTube videos of some small percentage of goofballs. It's POOR PEOPLE I worry about. To buy one new wheel, a set of brake calipers or shoes, a new brake cable, and maybe a lever, plus a mechanic to make it all work is going to cost near $75 in most places. Poor people don't have 75 cents to spare unless they do without food for a day or live without heat. So, PLEASE, leave them alone. Let them roll along at near walking speed and drag their feet to stop. I see it all day, every day, and they are no menace to me on a bike or in a car. Poor people don't want to ride under the wheels of a truck anymore than you or I, so they take it real easy. Why do they need a freaking law? Survival instinct is their law.

I-Like-To-Bike 02-20-13 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeyBike (Post 15297865)
I don't see anything wrong with a person without means cycling slowly and dragging their feet to stop. A natural sense of self preservation is their safety net. They don't want to get hurt either.

You want to live in some totalitarian society, there are plenty around.

Hmmm, I rode for many years in Philadelphia through some very poor sections of North, South and West Philadelphia and NEVER, EVER saw anybody cycling slowly and dragging their feet to stop. Maybe something about the New Orleans climate makes the coaster brakes and rim brakes dissolve and become inoperative.

JoeyBike 02-20-13 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike (Post 15297985)
Hmmm, I rode for many years in Philadelphia through some very poor sections of North, South and West Philadelphia and NEVER, EVER saw anybody cycling slowly and dragging their feet to stop. Maybe something about the New Orleans climate makes the coaster brakes and rim brakes dissolve and become inoperative.

Many, many riders here have department store "mountain" bikes with dual suspension in New Orleans. Most are by the brand Next and look like THIS. They cost under a hundred dollars initially, then get stolen, sold and re-stolen by crack-heads for $20 each. Over and over. Poor people are not going to invest any money in a bike that is almost certainly going to be stolen. These bikes are generally stuck in one gear (the tallest gear) which makes acceleration from stop impossible. None have working brakes due to deformed wheels. Tens of thousands of them are out there. Almost like a bike share program.

Maybe more people own crummy bikes in NOLA due to the ability to ride 365 days a year in our moderate climate - and mass transit sucks. I don't have an answer for why Philly would be different other than some cultural thing I am not plugged into. If I had to figure out how to get to work or the grocery during a Philadelphia winter then I would just continue doing that during the warmer months too.

Maybe you just don't notice how they stop. I have worked in (or near) the bicycle industry in New Orleans since 1989. Poor people wander into bike shops in NOLA all day long asking to tighten a handle bar stem or seat post that has loosened or maybe a flat fix. We just get used to not even bringing up the non-functioning brake arms splayed wide open so they don't rub on warped wheels because we know those problems will not be addressed.

ChasH 02-20-13 11:58 PM

Responding with abuse when a motorist in an open roadster points out that the cyclist has just run a red light at speed.

And in all other respects as per drivers.

JoeyBike: wow.

CB HI 02-21-13 02:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChasH (Post 15298775)
Responding with abuse when a motorist in an open roadster points out that the cyclist has just run a red light at speed.

And in all other respects as per drivers.

JoeyBike: wow.

Pretty sure no one here knows what you are talking about.

bhtooefr 02-21-13 04:19 AM

And that's why I'm advocating subsidies for repair of bicycles for poor people. (Also, coaster and drum brakes don't require the wheels to be true...)

jolly_ross 02-21-13 06:32 AM

Black Socks.

JoeyBike 02-21-13 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhtooefr (Post 15299024)
And that's why I'm advocating subsidies for repair of bicycles for poor people.

Anything that keeps poor people mobile so they have a fighting chance to move up a few rungs in status is good. I would be willing to pay more taxes for free (and better) mass transit for poor people too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhtooefr (Post 15299024)
Also, coaster and drum brakes don't require the wheels to be true...

For some reason the poorest people in NOLA do not ride coaster brake bikes. They ride cheap multi-geared WalMart "mountain" bikes or similar such junk. Bad assembly and crummy wheels and components make matters worse. Our car-free Hispanic work force, our African American poor as well as every homeless person, (most homeless are Caucasian here) love those multi-geared WalMart bikes. None of these people own a lock more effective than a boot lace, if any lock at all.

People with some means (still living in poverty) might have coaster brake bikes. I do not know why this is true. The next class of people - our service workers in the tourist industry (food service and lodging) draw enough pay to start affording the cheapest coaster brake bikes from actual bike shops as well as the silly WalMart bikes. This group comes in all colors (literally, because multiple tattoos are very fashionable here).

This info is informal. I am out and about all the time on my bike in poorer neighborhoods, Downtown, and sometimes have to spend an entire workday inside a popular bike shop near the French Quarter (Bicycle Michael's) doing contract work. I worked on their sales floor/repair diagnosis team for several years as well as Bayou Bicycles in Mid City for a year. When a cyclist rides past me (I could be looking out of a restaurant window) I notice how much air is in their tires (usually almost none) and every other detail - sort of an informal 30 year census of all things bicycle. When you are in the bike business it helps to notice what is going on in the real world with bicycles.

My situation may be unique. But again, don't pass laws to punish the few (fixie kids) that will punish a vast population (20% of my city) of people who are doing their best to just survive and don't really need a perfectly functioning bicycle to be safe on it.

bhtooefr 02-21-13 09:20 AM

I guess I should clarify, it's a damn shame that the $88 BSOs are rim brake, not coaster/drum brake.

I wonder if a large non-profit (that'd be the key, avoid the "must profit significantly at every step of the process" disease that makes Flying Pigeons cost $300+ here in the US) could actually solve this, building inexpensive, but quality, bikes en masse for transportational use. Think something along the lines of a Flying Pigeon, but with a target price of $100 (instead of $36), and with wheel sizes and parts selection so that it could easily be serviced in the Western world (I'm thinking 559 would do nicely and support a wide segment of the population - and you can get 559 tires and tubes ANYWHERE, 622 is a bit harder). 3-speed IGH with a coaster brake, and a front drum brake. $150 for a version with a dynohub and inexpensive (albeit low output) LED lights. Actually, the best route might be to take Flying Pigeon on directly, but market DIRECTLY to the whole world, and potentially even scale it up to Raleigh-level vertical integration.

kmv2 02-21-13 09:28 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by bhtooefr (Post 15299626)
I guess I should clarify, it's a damn shame that the $88 BSOs are rim brake, not coaster/drum brake.

I wonder if a large non-profit (that'd be the key, avoid the "must profit significantly at every step of the process" disease that makes Flying Pigeons cost $300+ here in the US) could actually solve this, building inexpensive, but quality, bikes en masse for transportational use. Think something along the lines of a Flying Pigeon, but with a target price of $100 (instead of $36), and with wheel sizes and parts selection so that it could easily be serviced in the Western world (I'm thinking 559 would do nicely and support a wide segment of the population - and you can get 559 tires and tubes ANYWHERE, 622 is a bit harder). 3-speed IGH with a coaster brake, and a front drum brake. $150 for a version with a dynohub and inexpensive (albeit low output) LED lights. Actually, the best route might be to take Flying Pigeon on directly, but market DIRECTLY to the whole world, and potentially even scale it up to Raleigh-level vertical integration.

But it won't have Front Shox and a decal that says "Shimano equipped".

I think the problem is your target market wants to walk into WalMart and get the best (perceived) bang for their buck, so they buy the gaudy piece of junk with all the useless stuff on it for $100.

http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=300638

GrouchoWretch 02-21-13 11:17 AM

Walmerde suspension bikes: UGH.

They used to have the Mongoose Paver, a sensible if cheesy bike.

Tarjay has the Magna Glacier Point, which is a dang sight more plausible than most of their bikes.

ChasH 02-21-13 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CB HI (Post 15298971)
Pretty sure no one here knows what you are talking about.

Speak for yourself.

Not in the least surprising, coming from you.


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