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  1. #101
    Roadmaster Snobbery Club bhtooefr's Avatar
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    You would rate the stopping distance of the bike at, say, 15 mph, on a dry surface. Have the standard set quite loose, and give fines from it to bike co-ops or something to support bicycle maintenance for low-income people.

    And, the law would be written to be so weakly enforceable that it could only really be used if a bike didn't have an applicable brake at all, or if the cyclist was involved in an accident due to failure to stop.
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  2. #102
    Slob GrouchoWretch's Avatar
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    How about everyone takes responsibility for himself?

    If you crash because you're riding a bike with no brakes, that's the price you pay, and maybe you learn something.

    If you damage property or hurt someone with your bike, you gotta pay for it.

    This idea isn't perfect, but it's better than trying to impose car-like regulations on human-powered vehicles with a very low level of liability.

    I mean, the administrative apparatus for overseeing bicycle brakes would be more costly and more of a pain than the supposed problem it's trying to cure.

    And this is the problem more generally with the idea of ticketing cyclists for violating codes intended for motor vehicles.
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  3. #103
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeyBike View Post
    Stopping distance at what speed? Many cyclists in my community cant even ride 10mph. Do we penalize the faster crowd or the poor people?

    Poor people always get screwed so i know the answer.
    How many of the fixed bike "kids" you champion are the "poor people," unless they are "poor" by their own choice?

  4. #104
    Roadmaster Snobbery Club bhtooefr's Avatar
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    Around here, almost all cycle commuting is done on "mountain" BSOs, or the odd "cruiser" BSO, all of which came with brakes.
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  5. #105
    Senior Member kmv2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
    How many of the fixed bike "kids" you champion are the "poor people," unless they are "poor" by their own choice?
    Poor because they spent all their money on tattoos and limited edition fixies

  6. #106
    Senior Member asmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeyBike View Post
    (no offense. sometimes i just feel confrontational. it's late)
    None taken.

  7. #107
    Senior Member asmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrouchoWretch View Post
    If you crash because you're riding a bike with no brakes, that's the price you pay, and maybe you learn something.
    Ummm... you seem to be saying that we should all do whatever we want with no rules or regulations and only if we actually hurt someone should we be held accountable and only for the actual damage caused. Do you really believe that? How far would you take it?

  8. #108
    Slob GrouchoWretch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by asmac View Post
    Ummm... you seem to be saying that we should all do whatever we want with no rules or regulations and only if we actually hurt someone should we be held accountable and only for the actual damage caused. Do you really believe that? How far would you take it?
    No, I don't seem to be saying that. I seem to be saying what I said.
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  9. #109
    Senior Member asmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrouchoWretch View Post
    No, I don't seem to be saying that. I seem to be saying what I said.
    OK... it seems to me that you're saying that we should all do whatever we want with no rules or regulations and only if we actually hurt someone should we be held accountable and only for the actual damage caused. That seems to be a ridiculous idea.

  10. #110
    Slob GrouchoWretch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by asmac View Post
    OK... it seems to me that you're saying that we should all do whatever we want with no rules or regulations and only if we actually hurt someone should we be held accountable and only for the actual damage caused. That seems to be a ridiculous idea.
    Yeah well I didn't say that, and I'm not responsible for ridiculous ideas you think up while reading what I actually wrote.
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  11. #111
    Roadmaster Snobbery Club bhtooefr's Avatar
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    Except that kinda is what you said. There's a reason why we have equipment standards, because it's better to not injure someone in the first place, than to injure them and compensate them.
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  12. #112
    Slob GrouchoWretch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bhtooefr View Post
    Except that kinda is what you said. There's a reason why we have equipment standards, because it's better to not injure someone in the first place, than to injure them and compensate them.
    Uh, no, it isn't "kinda" what I said. It actually isn't what I said at all.

    I also didn't say we could flap our arms and fly to the moon.

    Good lord.
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  13. #113
    20+mph Commuter JoeyBike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
    How many of the fixed bike "kids" you champion are the "poor people," unless they are "poor" by their own choice?
    Two different groups altogether.

    Fixie kids chose to ride bikes without hand brakes.

    Poor people, and we have a lot of them in New Orleans, can't afford a decent bike usually. When wheels get bent hand brakes can't be adjusted they get disconnected. The cost of one decent wheel, brake pads, and a mechanic to do the work is beyond the means of many of our citizens.

    More than a quarter of New Orleans residents are living in poverty and more still are living in "asset poverty," lacking the means to support a household at the federal poverty level for three months should they lose their main source of income, a new report from the Corporation for Enterprise Development and the Greater New Orleans Community Data Center finds. (Reference)

    So any law, silly as it may seem, causing poor people to fix up their bikes, will immobilize many of our more helpless citizens. Even if the law targets those fixie kids (who don't seem to have ANY trouble staying in control of their machines) the poor will suffer greatly.

    I don't see anything wrong with a person without means cycling slowly and dragging their feet to stop. A natural sense of self preservation is their safety net. They don't want to get hurt either.

    You want to live in some totalitarian society, there are plenty around.
    Last edited by JoeyBike; 02-20-13 at 06:57 PM.
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  14. #114
    20+mph Commuter JoeyBike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kmv2 View Post
    Sweet. No brakes needed if you ride a rickety untrue bike really slow
    Exactly. You got it.

    Quote Originally Posted by kmv2 View Post
    No brakes needed on a fixie even if you have "no CLUE" how to stop it.
    I do not know one person riding fixed with no brake who is suicidal. By the time they mix it up with auto traffic they can stop better than most "casual" cyclists on comfort bikes, tricycles, or beach cruisers - many of which have brakes way out of adjustment anyway 'cause they bought them at WallyWorld.

    Quote Originally Posted by kmv2 View Post
    Skateboards don't ride in the street with cars.
    They do where I live. Two guys I work with commute on skateboards when the weather is perfect. Only about one mile, but they ride in the street and have no trouble stopping without brakes.

    Quote Originally Posted by kmv2 View Post
    I just think you need some common sense.
    Any of this starting to sink in and make sense to you?

    Quote Originally Posted by kmv2 View Post
    People with no brakes on Wal Mart bikes are not safe. A coaster brake is for more reliable, easy to operate and rely on than your own "know-how" and leg power.
    You mean a coaster brake bike in good repair? How do we police that?

    Quote Originally Posted by kmv2 View Post

    You can argue the semantics of it, but in my opinion, a $15-20 item that could potentially save my life is worth it. I really don't see why you and the fixie people are so opposed to it.
    I really couldn't care less about fixie people other than protecting their freedom from zealots who don't know anything about them other than second hand YouTube videos of some small percentage of goofballs. It's POOR PEOPLE I worry about. To buy one new wheel, a set of brake calipers or shoes, a new brake cable, and maybe a lever, plus a mechanic to make it all work is going to cost near $75 in most places. Poor people don't have 75 cents to spare unless they do without food for a day or live without heat. So, PLEASE, leave them alone. Let them roll along at near walking speed and drag their feet to stop. I see it all day, every day, and they are no menace to me on a bike or in a car. Poor people don't want to ride under the wheels of a truck anymore than you or I, so they take it real easy. Why do they need a freaking law? Survival instinct is their law.
    Last edited by JoeyBike; 02-20-13 at 06:55 PM.
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  15. #115
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeyBike View Post
    I don't see anything wrong with a person without means cycling slowly and dragging their feet to stop. A natural sense of self preservation is their safety net. They don't want to get hurt either.

    You want to live in some totalitarian society, there are plenty around.
    Hmmm, I rode for many years in Philadelphia through some very poor sections of North, South and West Philadelphia and NEVER, EVER saw anybody cycling slowly and dragging their feet to stop. Maybe something about the New Orleans climate makes the coaster brakes and rim brakes dissolve and become inoperative.

  16. #116
    20+mph Commuter JoeyBike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
    Hmmm, I rode for many years in Philadelphia through some very poor sections of North, South and West Philadelphia and NEVER, EVER saw anybody cycling slowly and dragging their feet to stop. Maybe something about the New Orleans climate makes the coaster brakes and rim brakes dissolve and become inoperative.
    Many, many riders here have department store "mountain" bikes with dual suspension in New Orleans. Most are by the brand Next and look like THIS. They cost under a hundred dollars initially, then get stolen, sold and re-stolen by crack-heads for $20 each. Over and over. Poor people are not going to invest any money in a bike that is almost certainly going to be stolen. These bikes are generally stuck in one gear (the tallest gear) which makes acceleration from stop impossible. None have working brakes due to deformed wheels. Tens of thousands of them are out there. Almost like a bike share program.

    Maybe more people own crummy bikes in NOLA due to the ability to ride 365 days a year in our moderate climate - and mass transit sucks. I don't have an answer for why Philly would be different other than some cultural thing I am not plugged into. If I had to figure out how to get to work or the grocery during a Philadelphia winter then I would just continue doing that during the warmer months too.

    Maybe you just don't notice how they stop. I have worked in (or near) the bicycle industry in New Orleans since 1989. Poor people wander into bike shops in NOLA all day long asking to tighten a handle bar stem or seat post that has loosened or maybe a flat fix. We just get used to not even bringing up the non-functioning brake arms splayed wide open so they don't rub on warped wheels because we know those problems will not be addressed.
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  17. #117
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    Responding with abuse when a motorist in an open roadster points out that the cyclist has just run a red light at speed.

    And in all other respects as per drivers.

    JoeyBike: wow.
    Last edited by ChasH; 02-20-13 at 11:02 PM.

  18. #118
    Cycle Year Round CB HI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChasH View Post
    Responding with abuse when a motorist in an open roadster points out that the cyclist has just run a red light at speed.

    And in all other respects as per drivers.

    JoeyBike: wow.
    Pretty sure no one here knows what you are talking about.
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  19. #119
    Roadmaster Snobbery Club bhtooefr's Avatar
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    And that's why I'm advocating subsidies for repair of bicycles for poor people. (Also, coaster and drum brakes don't require the wheels to be true...)
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  20. #120
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    Black Socks.

  21. #121
    20+mph Commuter JoeyBike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bhtooefr View Post
    And that's why I'm advocating subsidies for repair of bicycles for poor people.
    Anything that keeps poor people mobile so they have a fighting chance to move up a few rungs in status is good. I would be willing to pay more taxes for free (and better) mass transit for poor people too.

    Quote Originally Posted by bhtooefr View Post
    Also, coaster and drum brakes don't require the wheels to be true...
    For some reason the poorest people in NOLA do not ride coaster brake bikes. They ride cheap multi-geared WalMart "mountain" bikes or similar such junk. Bad assembly and crummy wheels and components make matters worse. Our car-free Hispanic work force, our African American poor as well as every homeless person, (most homeless are Caucasian here) love those multi-geared WalMart bikes. None of these people own a lock more effective than a boot lace, if any lock at all.

    People with some means (still living in poverty) might have coaster brake bikes. I do not know why this is true. The next class of people - our service workers in the tourist industry (food service and lodging) draw enough pay to start affording the cheapest coaster brake bikes from actual bike shops as well as the silly WalMart bikes. This group comes in all colors (literally, because multiple tattoos are very fashionable here).

    This info is informal. I am out and about all the time on my bike in poorer neighborhoods, Downtown, and sometimes have to spend an entire workday inside a popular bike shop near the French Quarter (Bicycle Michael's) doing contract work. I worked on their sales floor/repair diagnosis team for several years as well as Bayou Bicycles in Mid City for a year. When a cyclist rides past me (I could be looking out of a restaurant window) I notice how much air is in their tires (usually almost none) and every other detail - sort of an informal 30 year census of all things bicycle. When you are in the bike business it helps to notice what is going on in the real world with bicycles.

    My situation may be unique. But again, don't pass laws to punish the few (fixie kids) that will punish a vast population (20% of my city) of people who are doing their best to just survive and don't really need a perfectly functioning bicycle to be safe on it.
    "For all we know his skills may be excellent, allowing him to ride like an idiot without actually being one." - FBinNY

  22. #122
    Roadmaster Snobbery Club bhtooefr's Avatar
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    I guess I should clarify, it's a damn shame that the $88 BSOs are rim brake, not coaster/drum brake.

    I wonder if a large non-profit (that'd be the key, avoid the "must profit significantly at every step of the process" disease that makes Flying Pigeons cost $300+ here in the US) could actually solve this, building inexpensive, but quality, bikes en masse for transportational use. Think something along the lines of a Flying Pigeon, but with a target price of $100 (instead of $36), and with wheel sizes and parts selection so that it could easily be serviced in the Western world (I'm thinking 559 would do nicely and support a wide segment of the population - and you can get 559 tires and tubes ANYWHERE, 622 is a bit harder). 3-speed IGH with a coaster brake, and a front drum brake. $150 for a version with a dynohub and inexpensive (albeit low output) LED lights. Actually, the best route might be to take Flying Pigeon on directly, but market DIRECTLY to the whole world, and potentially even scale it up to Raleigh-level vertical integration.
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  23. #123
    Senior Member kmv2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bhtooefr View Post
    I guess I should clarify, it's a damn shame that the $88 BSOs are rim brake, not coaster/drum brake.

    I wonder if a large non-profit (that'd be the key, avoid the "must profit significantly at every step of the process" disease that makes Flying Pigeons cost $300+ here in the US) could actually solve this, building inexpensive, but quality, bikes en masse for transportational use. Think something along the lines of a Flying Pigeon, but with a target price of $100 (instead of $36), and with wheel sizes and parts selection so that it could easily be serviced in the Western world (I'm thinking 559 would do nicely and support a wide segment of the population - and you can get 559 tires and tubes ANYWHERE, 622 is a bit harder). 3-speed IGH with a coaster brake, and a front drum brake. $150 for a version with a dynohub and inexpensive (albeit low output) LED lights. Actually, the best route might be to take Flying Pigeon on directly, but market DIRECTLY to the whole world, and potentially even scale it up to Raleigh-level vertical integration.
    But it won't have Front Shox and a decal that says "Shimano equipped".

    I think the problem is your target market wants to walk into WalMart and get the best (perceived) bang for their buck, so they buy the gaudy piece of junk with all the useless stuff on it for $100.

    0083646700039_500X500.jpg

  24. #124
    Slob GrouchoWretch's Avatar
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    Walmerde suspension bikes: UGH.

    They used to have the Mongoose Paver, a sensible if cheesy bike.

    Tarjay has the Magna Glacier Point, which is a dang sight more plausible than most of their bikes.
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  25. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by CB HI View Post
    Pretty sure no one here knows what you are talking about.
    Speak for yourself.

    Not in the least surprising, coming from you.

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