What Should Riders Be Ticketed For?
#101
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Newark, Ohio
Posts: 758
Bikes: 2002 Dahon Boardwalk 1, 2003 Sun EZ-Sport Limited, 2011 TerraTrike Path 8, 2018 Gazelle Arroyo C8 HMB
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
You would rate the stopping distance of the bike at, say, 15 mph, on a dry surface. Have the standard set quite loose, and give fines from it to bike co-ops or something to support bicycle maintenance for low-income people.
And, the law would be written to be so weakly enforceable that it could only really be used if a bike didn't have an applicable brake at all, or if the cyclist was involved in an accident due to failure to stop.
And, the law would be written to be so weakly enforceable that it could only really be used if a bike didn't have an applicable brake at all, or if the cyclist was involved in an accident due to failure to stop.
#102
Slob
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 497
Bikes: 1970s AMF Roadmaster 3 speed, Bianchi Volpe, 2012 GT Zum City
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
How about everyone takes responsibility for himself?
If you crash because you're riding a bike with no brakes, that's the price you pay, and maybe you learn something.
If you damage property or hurt someone with your bike, you gotta pay for it.
This idea isn't perfect, but it's better than trying to impose car-like regulations on human-powered vehicles with a very low level of liability.
I mean, the administrative apparatus for overseeing bicycle brakes would be more costly and more of a pain than the supposed problem it's trying to cure.
And this is the problem more generally with the idea of ticketing cyclists for violating codes intended for motor vehicles.
If you crash because you're riding a bike with no brakes, that's the price you pay, and maybe you learn something.
If you damage property or hurt someone with your bike, you gotta pay for it.
This idea isn't perfect, but it's better than trying to impose car-like regulations on human-powered vehicles with a very low level of liability.
I mean, the administrative apparatus for overseeing bicycle brakes would be more costly and more of a pain than the supposed problem it's trying to cure.
And this is the problem more generally with the idea of ticketing cyclists for violating codes intended for motor vehicles.
#103
Been Around Awhile
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Posts: 29,951
Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked 1,517 Times
in
1,031 Posts
How many of the fixed bike "kids" you champion are the "poor people," unless they are "poor" by their own choice?
#104
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Newark, Ohio
Posts: 758
Bikes: 2002 Dahon Boardwalk 1, 2003 Sun EZ-Sport Limited, 2011 TerraTrike Path 8, 2018 Gazelle Arroyo C8 HMB
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
Around here, almost all cycle commuting is done on "mountain" BSOs, or the odd "cruiser" BSO, all of which came with brakes.
#105
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 705
Bikes: Bianchi circa late 1980s, Surly Cross Check, Kona Blast
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
#107
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Toronto
Posts: 1,261
Bikes: Salsa Vaya
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 172 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
Ummm... you seem to be saying that we should all do whatever we want with no rules or regulations and only if we actually hurt someone should we be held accountable and only for the actual damage caused. Do you really believe that? How far would you take it?
#108
Slob
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 497
Bikes: 1970s AMF Roadmaster 3 speed, Bianchi Volpe, 2012 GT Zum City
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
No, I don't seem to be saying that. I seem to be saying what I said.
#109
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Toronto
Posts: 1,261
Bikes: Salsa Vaya
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 172 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
OK... it seems to me that you're saying that we should all do whatever we want with no rules or regulations and only if we actually hurt someone should we be held accountable and only for the actual damage caused. That seems to be a ridiculous idea.
#110
Slob
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 497
Bikes: 1970s AMF Roadmaster 3 speed, Bianchi Volpe, 2012 GT Zum City
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Yeah well I didn't say that, and I'm not responsible for ridiculous ideas you think up while reading what I actually wrote.
#111
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Newark, Ohio
Posts: 758
Bikes: 2002 Dahon Boardwalk 1, 2003 Sun EZ-Sport Limited, 2011 TerraTrike Path 8, 2018 Gazelle Arroyo C8 HMB
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
Except that kinda is what you said. There's a reason why we have equipment standards, because it's better to not injure someone in the first place, than to injure them and compensate them.
#112
Slob
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 497
Bikes: 1970s AMF Roadmaster 3 speed, Bianchi Volpe, 2012 GT Zum City
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I also didn't say we could flap our arms and fly to the moon.
Good lord.
#113
20+mph Commuter
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: New Orleans, LA USA
Posts: 7,491
Bikes: Surly LHT, Surly Lowside, a folding bike, and a beater.
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1422 Post(s)
Liked 315 Times
in
210 Posts
Fixie kids chose to ride bikes without hand brakes.
Poor people, and we have a lot of them in New Orleans, can't afford a decent bike usually. When wheels get bent hand brakes can't be adjusted they get disconnected. The cost of one decent wheel, brake pads, and a mechanic to do the work is beyond the means of many of our citizens.
More than a quarter of New Orleans residents are living in poverty and more still are living in "asset poverty," lacking the means to support a household at the federal poverty level for three months should they lose their main source of income, a new report from the Corporation for Enterprise Development and the Greater New Orleans Community Data Center finds. (Reference)
So any law, silly as it may seem, causing poor people to fix up their bikes, will immobilize many of our more helpless citizens. Even if the law targets those fixie kids (who don't seem to have ANY trouble staying in control of their machines) the poor will suffer greatly.
I don't see anything wrong with a person without means cycling slowly and dragging their feet to stop. A natural sense of self preservation is their safety net. They don't want to get hurt either.
You want to live in some totalitarian society, there are plenty around.
Last edited by JoeyBike; 02-20-13 at 07:57 PM.
#114
20+mph Commuter
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: New Orleans, LA USA
Posts: 7,491
Bikes: Surly LHT, Surly Lowside, a folding bike, and a beater.
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1422 Post(s)
Liked 315 Times
in
210 Posts
Exactly. You got it.
I do not know one person riding fixed with no brake who is suicidal. By the time they mix it up with auto traffic they can stop better than most "casual" cyclists on comfort bikes, tricycles, or beach cruisers - many of which have brakes way out of adjustment anyway 'cause they bought them at WallyWorld.
They do where I live. Two guys I work with commute on skateboards when the weather is perfect. Only about one mile, but they ride in the street and have no trouble stopping without brakes.
Any of this starting to sink in and make sense to you?
You mean a coaster brake bike in good repair? How do we police that?
I really couldn't care less about fixie people other than protecting their freedom from zealots who don't know anything about them other than second hand YouTube videos of some small percentage of goofballs. It's POOR PEOPLE I worry about. To buy one new wheel, a set of brake calipers or shoes, a new brake cable, and maybe a lever, plus a mechanic to make it all work is going to cost near $75 in most places. Poor people don't have 75 cents to spare unless they do without food for a day or live without heat. So, PLEASE, leave them alone. Let them roll along at near walking speed and drag their feet to stop. I see it all day, every day, and they are no menace to me on a bike or in a car. Poor people don't want to ride under the wheels of a truck anymore than you or I, so they take it real easy. Why do they need a freaking law? Survival instinct is their law.
I do not know one person riding fixed with no brake who is suicidal. By the time they mix it up with auto traffic they can stop better than most "casual" cyclists on comfort bikes, tricycles, or beach cruisers - many of which have brakes way out of adjustment anyway 'cause they bought them at WallyWorld.
They do where I live. Two guys I work with commute on skateboards when the weather is perfect. Only about one mile, but they ride in the street and have no trouble stopping without brakes.
Any of this starting to sink in and make sense to you?
I really couldn't care less about fixie people other than protecting their freedom from zealots who don't know anything about them other than second hand YouTube videos of some small percentage of goofballs. It's POOR PEOPLE I worry about. To buy one new wheel, a set of brake calipers or shoes, a new brake cable, and maybe a lever, plus a mechanic to make it all work is going to cost near $75 in most places. Poor people don't have 75 cents to spare unless they do without food for a day or live without heat. So, PLEASE, leave them alone. Let them roll along at near walking speed and drag their feet to stop. I see it all day, every day, and they are no menace to me on a bike or in a car. Poor people don't want to ride under the wheels of a truck anymore than you or I, so they take it real easy. Why do they need a freaking law? Survival instinct is their law.
Last edited by JoeyBike; 02-20-13 at 07:55 PM.
#115
Been Around Awhile
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Posts: 29,951
Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked 1,517 Times
in
1,031 Posts
Hmmm, I rode for many years in Philadelphia through some very poor sections of North, South and West Philadelphia and NEVER, EVER saw anybody cycling slowly and dragging their feet to stop. Maybe something about the New Orleans climate makes the coaster brakes and rim brakes dissolve and become inoperative.
#116
20+mph Commuter
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: New Orleans, LA USA
Posts: 7,491
Bikes: Surly LHT, Surly Lowside, a folding bike, and a beater.
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1422 Post(s)
Liked 315 Times
in
210 Posts
Hmmm, I rode for many years in Philadelphia through some very poor sections of North, South and West Philadelphia and NEVER, EVER saw anybody cycling slowly and dragging their feet to stop. Maybe something about the New Orleans climate makes the coaster brakes and rim brakes dissolve and become inoperative.
Maybe more people own crummy bikes in NOLA due to the ability to ride 365 days a year in our moderate climate - and mass transit sucks. I don't have an answer for why Philly would be different other than some cultural thing I am not plugged into. If I had to figure out how to get to work or the grocery during a Philadelphia winter then I would just continue doing that during the warmer months too.
Maybe you just don't notice how they stop. I have worked in (or near) the bicycle industry in New Orleans since 1989. Poor people wander into bike shops in NOLA all day long asking to tighten a handle bar stem or seat post that has loosened or maybe a flat fix. We just get used to not even bringing up the non-functioning brake arms splayed wide open so they don't rub on warped wheels because we know those problems will not be addressed.
#117
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: San Diego
Posts: 264
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Responding with abuse when a motorist in an open roadster points out that the cyclist has just run a red light at speed.
And in all other respects as per drivers.
JoeyBike: wow.
And in all other respects as per drivers.
JoeyBike: wow.
Last edited by ChasH; 02-21-13 at 12:02 AM.
#118
Cycle Year Round
Pretty sure no one here knows what you are talking about.
__________________
Land of the Free, Because of the Brave.
Land of the Free, Because of the Brave.
#119
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Newark, Ohio
Posts: 758
Bikes: 2002 Dahon Boardwalk 1, 2003 Sun EZ-Sport Limited, 2011 TerraTrike Path 8, 2018 Gazelle Arroyo C8 HMB
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
And that's why I'm advocating subsidies for repair of bicycles for poor people. (Also, coaster and drum brakes don't require the wheels to be true...)
#121
20+mph Commuter
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: New Orleans, LA USA
Posts: 7,491
Bikes: Surly LHT, Surly Lowside, a folding bike, and a beater.
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1422 Post(s)
Liked 315 Times
in
210 Posts
For some reason the poorest people in NOLA do not ride coaster brake bikes. They ride cheap multi-geared WalMart "mountain" bikes or similar such junk. Bad assembly and crummy wheels and components make matters worse. Our car-free Hispanic work force, our African American poor as well as every homeless person, (most homeless are Caucasian here) love those multi-geared WalMart bikes. None of these people own a lock more effective than a boot lace, if any lock at all.
People with some means (still living in poverty) might have coaster brake bikes. I do not know why this is true. The next class of people - our service workers in the tourist industry (food service and lodging) draw enough pay to start affording the cheapest coaster brake bikes from actual bike shops as well as the silly WalMart bikes. This group comes in all colors (literally, because multiple tattoos are very fashionable here).
This info is informal. I am out and about all the time on my bike in poorer neighborhoods, Downtown, and sometimes have to spend an entire workday inside a popular bike shop near the French Quarter (Bicycle Michael's) doing contract work. I worked on their sales floor/repair diagnosis team for several years as well as Bayou Bicycles in Mid City for a year. When a cyclist rides past me (I could be looking out of a restaurant window) I notice how much air is in their tires (usually almost none) and every other detail - sort of an informal 30 year census of all things bicycle. When you are in the bike business it helps to notice what is going on in the real world with bicycles.
My situation may be unique. But again, don't pass laws to punish the few (fixie kids) that will punish a vast population (20% of my city) of people who are doing their best to just survive and don't really need a perfectly functioning bicycle to be safe on it.
#122
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Newark, Ohio
Posts: 758
Bikes: 2002 Dahon Boardwalk 1, 2003 Sun EZ-Sport Limited, 2011 TerraTrike Path 8, 2018 Gazelle Arroyo C8 HMB
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
I guess I should clarify, it's a damn shame that the $88 BSOs are rim brake, not coaster/drum brake.
I wonder if a large non-profit (that'd be the key, avoid the "must profit significantly at every step of the process" disease that makes Flying Pigeons cost $300+ here in the US) could actually solve this, building inexpensive, but quality, bikes en masse for transportational use. Think something along the lines of a Flying Pigeon, but with a target price of $100 (instead of $36), and with wheel sizes and parts selection so that it could easily be serviced in the Western world (I'm thinking 559 would do nicely and support a wide segment of the population - and you can get 559 tires and tubes ANYWHERE, 622 is a bit harder). 3-speed IGH with a coaster brake, and a front drum brake. $150 for a version with a dynohub and inexpensive (albeit low output) LED lights. Actually, the best route might be to take Flying Pigeon on directly, but market DIRECTLY to the whole world, and potentially even scale it up to Raleigh-level vertical integration.
I wonder if a large non-profit (that'd be the key, avoid the "must profit significantly at every step of the process" disease that makes Flying Pigeons cost $300+ here in the US) could actually solve this, building inexpensive, but quality, bikes en masse for transportational use. Think something along the lines of a Flying Pigeon, but with a target price of $100 (instead of $36), and with wheel sizes and parts selection so that it could easily be serviced in the Western world (I'm thinking 559 would do nicely and support a wide segment of the population - and you can get 559 tires and tubes ANYWHERE, 622 is a bit harder). 3-speed IGH with a coaster brake, and a front drum brake. $150 for a version with a dynohub and inexpensive (albeit low output) LED lights. Actually, the best route might be to take Flying Pigeon on directly, but market DIRECTLY to the whole world, and potentially even scale it up to Raleigh-level vertical integration.
#123
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 705
Bikes: Bianchi circa late 1980s, Surly Cross Check, Kona Blast
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I guess I should clarify, it's a damn shame that the $88 BSOs are rim brake, not coaster/drum brake.
I wonder if a large non-profit (that'd be the key, avoid the "must profit significantly at every step of the process" disease that makes Flying Pigeons cost $300+ here in the US) could actually solve this, building inexpensive, but quality, bikes en masse for transportational use. Think something along the lines of a Flying Pigeon, but with a target price of $100 (instead of $36), and with wheel sizes and parts selection so that it could easily be serviced in the Western world (I'm thinking 559 would do nicely and support a wide segment of the population - and you can get 559 tires and tubes ANYWHERE, 622 is a bit harder). 3-speed IGH with a coaster brake, and a front drum brake. $150 for a version with a dynohub and inexpensive (albeit low output) LED lights. Actually, the best route might be to take Flying Pigeon on directly, but market DIRECTLY to the whole world, and potentially even scale it up to Raleigh-level vertical integration.
I wonder if a large non-profit (that'd be the key, avoid the "must profit significantly at every step of the process" disease that makes Flying Pigeons cost $300+ here in the US) could actually solve this, building inexpensive, but quality, bikes en masse for transportational use. Think something along the lines of a Flying Pigeon, but with a target price of $100 (instead of $36), and with wheel sizes and parts selection so that it could easily be serviced in the Western world (I'm thinking 559 would do nicely and support a wide segment of the population - and you can get 559 tires and tubes ANYWHERE, 622 is a bit harder). 3-speed IGH with a coaster brake, and a front drum brake. $150 for a version with a dynohub and inexpensive (albeit low output) LED lights. Actually, the best route might be to take Flying Pigeon on directly, but market DIRECTLY to the whole world, and potentially even scale it up to Raleigh-level vertical integration.
I think the problem is your target market wants to walk into WalMart and get the best (perceived) bang for their buck, so they buy the gaudy piece of junk with all the useless stuff on it for $100.
#124
Slob
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 497
Bikes: 1970s AMF Roadmaster 3 speed, Bianchi Volpe, 2012 GT Zum City
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Walmerde suspension bikes: UGH.
They used to have the Mongoose Paver, a sensible if cheesy bike.
Tarjay has the Magna Glacier Point, which is a dang sight more plausible than most of their bikes.
They used to have the Mongoose Paver, a sensible if cheesy bike.
Tarjay has the Magna Glacier Point, which is a dang sight more plausible than most of their bikes.
#125
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: San Diego
Posts: 264
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts