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  1. #51
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    The law here is that on the road cars must give a bike at least 3 feet when passing. So it makes sense to give pedestrians at least 3 feet, more if they have headphones/dogs/are daydreaming.

    Using a bell is also sensible and CYA if the other party makes trouble: "officer, I rang my bell and announced I was passing on the left"

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by buzzman View Post
    Am I the only one thinking this BUT is it possible there is an equal percentage of jerks on bikes, jerks in cars, jerks walking, jerks walking dogs, jerks running and an equal percentage of responsible people on bikes, in cars, walking, walking dogs and running. And that this is because they are all just people and people can be jerks and people can be responsible and anything in between.
    +1, In any random of people pulled from any class, you'll find a similar distribution of good, bad, and just plain crazy. I can't control that, nor predict what any encounter may bring, so I try to stay focused on my own conduct, which is something more under my control.



    Quote Originally Posted by buzzman View Post

    The guy walking with the stick is a paranoid, aggressive jerk looking for a paranoid, aggressive guy on a bike to mix it up with...
    That's an assumption. Since we have no report of what he did with his stick, it's just as possible that he's a nervous person who's had a few too many scares at the hands of what he sees as kamikaze cyclists. Even with the best of control, passing people at high speed makes them nervous. After all they have no way of knowing your skill level and attentiveness.

    We see plenty of posts relating to overly close passes by cars, combined with a high speed differential. Looking from the perspective of a pedestrian, some may feel the same way as we fly by.
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  3. #53
    Senior Member kalliergo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dynodonn View Post
    Anti cyclist mentality doesn't only pertain to just MUPs, today, a local family that was having a yard sale, decided to put an orange construction cone in the middle of a bike lane that I was traveling in, so as to slow down cyclists "speeding" past their house, and not hit any of their patrons.
    Well, the only problem I see with that is that they placed it in the middle of the BL. If it had been placed more thoughtfully (say, on the BL stripe), I would think of it as an appropriate warning of extra/unusual activity at the location -- sensible suggestion to slow down and pay attention.
    "What if we fail to stop the erosion of cities by automobiles?. . . In that case, we Americans will hardly need to ponder a mystery that has troubled men for millennia: What is the purpose of life? For us, the answer will be clear, established and for all practical purposes indisputable: The purpose of life is to produce and consume automobiles."

    ~Jane Jacobs, The Death and Life of Great American Cities

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by buzzman View Post
    Am I the only one thinking this BUT is it possible there is an equal percentage of jerks on bikes, jerks in cars, jerks walking, jerks walking dogs, jerks running and an equal percentage of responsible people on bikes, in cars, walking, walking dogs and running. And that this is because they are all just people and people can be jerks and people can be responsible and anything in between.

    It would be an illusion and a kind of ethnocentrism to assume the group to which you belonged had a smaller # of jerks.

    The guy walking with the stick is a paranoid, aggressive jerk looking for a paranoid, aggressive guy on a bike to mix it up with...

    It's basic territorial imperative, some people just never learned to share space.
    Agreed , In my experience, in this area the cyclist jerks are almost always full kitted road bikers. Even the 98% of kitted out road biker that were not jerks were 1. not announcing passing 2. blowing stop signs both are trail use rules and the second will get you killed. there are two markers at road crossings on the trail I rode today for people who blew stop signs one to many time
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  5. #55
    Senior Member kalliergo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 009jim View Post
    If you like the idea of riding fairly fast and passing stuff close, I fail to understand why you chose to ride on the MUP. Wouldn't you enjoy it heaps more out on the road? On the road you can really hammer it and buzz past stuff and they will no-doubt buzz past you and it will be enjoyable much more than the boring old MUP.
    +a bunch.

    Real bicycle tough guys would forget the MUP and the weird guy with the stick and go tangle with opponents who can fight back.
    "What if we fail to stop the erosion of cities by automobiles?. . . In that case, we Americans will hardly need to ponder a mystery that has troubled men for millennia: What is the purpose of life? For us, the answer will be clear, established and for all practical purposes indisputable: The purpose of life is to produce and consume automobiles."

    ~Jane Jacobs, The Death and Life of Great American Cities

  6. #56
    Senior Member dynodonn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kalliergo View Post
    Well, the only problem I see with that is that they placed it in the middle of the BL. If it had been placed more thoughtfully (say, on the BL stripe), I would think of it as an appropriate warning of extra/unusual activity at the location -- sensible suggestion to slow down and pay attention.

    When it comes to thinking about the cycling community, a number of the general public really have their heads up their asses, especially when the bike lane has a two lane one way street adjacent to it. I didn't see any cones placed in the middle of each of the traffic lanes that have traffic moving at 30 to 40 mph. Damn those "speed demon" cyclists traveling at a break neck speed of 15 to 18 mph.

  7. #57
    Senior Member kalliergo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dynodonn View Post
    I didn't see any cones placed in the middle of each of the traffic lanes that have traffic moving at 30 to 40 mph. Damn those "speed demon" cyclists traveling at a break neck speed of 15 to 18 mph.
    That's probably because, thanks to the bike lane, the motorists were far enough away from the activity around the sale not to threaten it. But cyclists were not. (Just guessing here, unless you point us to a map/satellite shot.)

    If there were two lanes of traffic going in your direction, plus the bike lane, why was it difficult to change lanes for a few feet to avoid the marked potential hazard?
    "What if we fail to stop the erosion of cities by automobiles?. . . In that case, we Americans will hardly need to ponder a mystery that has troubled men for millennia: What is the purpose of life? For us, the answer will be clear, established and for all practical purposes indisputable: The purpose of life is to produce and consume automobiles."

    ~Jane Jacobs, The Death and Life of Great American Cities

  8. #58
    Senior Member CommuteCommando's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by buzzman View Post
    Am I the only one thinking this BUT is it possible there is an equal percentage of jerks on bikes, jerks in cars, jerks walking, jerks walking dogs, jerks running and an equal percentage of responsible people on bikes, in cars, walking, walking dogs and running. And that this is because they are all just people and people can be jerks and people can be responsible and anything in between.
    Of course. The corollary of this is all those cyclists that assume that collisions between bikes and cars are always the motorists fault.
    As much as you paid for that Beemer [Mercedies, Audi, Escalade], I'm surprised it didn't come equipped with turn signals.

  9. #59
    Certified Bike Brat Burton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CommuteCommando View Post
    Of course. The corollary of this is all those cyclists that assume that collisions between bikes and cars are always the motorists fault.
    This week alone have had three regular customers bring in high end bikes for repairs after collisions. They also had a lot of raw and bleeding skin to show for the encounter but luckily - nothing broken.

    Except that - these were collisions with other cyclists on a bicycle path! Oh yeah - thats the same place that's supposed to be safer for kids than cycling in the street. If its not safe for adults - I have my doubts.

  10. #60
    Senior Member dynodonn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kalliergo View Post
    That's probably because, thanks to the bike lane, the motorists were far enough away from the activity around the sale not to threaten it. But cyclists were not. (Just guessing here, unless you point us to a map/satellite shot.)

    If there were two lanes of traffic going in your direction, plus the bike lane, why was it difficult to change lanes for a few feet to avoid the marked potential hazard?

    The construction cone in question can be easily circumvented by switching lanes, this incident just goes to show how some in the general public will view the cycling community. Obstructing a lane to slow or stop traffic that is already going slow, but think nothing about their patrons crossing a busy two lane street, with traffic speeds of 30 to 40 mph, to reach their yard sale.

  11. #61
    Senior Member eja_ bottecchia's Avatar
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    I don't ride MUPs, there are perfectly good roads in and around where I live.

    What I can't stand is when yentas, pushing huge baby strollers, invade the bike lanes and walk, 3 or 4 abreast, yakking it up and then expect me to ride into traffic to accomodate their fat asses.
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  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by kalliergo View Post
    Nah. People hate being startled or feeling intimidated.



    They won't, so maybe we should consider dealing with reality in ways that might realistically address the problem.

    So far, I don't see much discussion developing here that seems all that relevant to the OP's request.
    Comments appreciated. You are one of the few that is being relevant and rational while maintaining an easy going nature (a common trait among people from the SF bay area).

    There have been a few threads about peds and runners on the MUPs. Someone once said the runners are like the deputies on the trails. They watch out for the speeding cyclists and the slower moving peds all at the same time and adjust accordingly so the wandering pedestrian does not get hit. I'm not sure what "joggers" refers to.

    It's good to use the MUPs with some ethics and safety in mind, and that includes peds, runners, joggers and cyclists.
    "...an object in motion stays in motion with the same speed and in the same direction unless acted upon by an unbalanced force."

  13. #63
    Senior Member kalliergo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eja_ bottecchia View Post
    What I can't stand is when yentas, pushing huge baby strollers, invade the bike lanes and walk, 3 or 4 abreast, yakking it up and then expect me to ride into traffic to accomodate their fat asses.
    1. "Yenta" general means something like "old gossip" -- just for future reference. Are groups of grandmothers pushing the strollers where you ride?

    2. Could you share with us a map location or photograph of the situation you are describing? I'd like to see whether there's a better place for the stroller-pushers to walk and whether there's really any problem with your having to merge into the adjacent lane to pass them.
    Last edited by kalliergo; 05-05-13 at 10:54 AM. Reason: "pushing" not "puching" (but maybe "puching is a Yiddish word I don't know)
    "What if we fail to stop the erosion of cities by automobiles?. . . In that case, we Americans will hardly need to ponder a mystery that has troubled men for millennia: What is the purpose of life? For us, the answer will be clear, established and for all practical purposes indisputable: The purpose of life is to produce and consume automobiles."

    ~Jane Jacobs, The Death and Life of Great American Cities

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Burton View Post
    This week alone have had three regular customers bring in high end bikes for repairs after collisions. They also had a lot of raw and bleeding skin to show for the encounter but luckily - nothing broken.

    Except that - these were collisions with other cyclists on a bicycle path! Oh yeah - thats the same place that's supposed to be safer for kids than cycling in the street. If its not safe for adults - I have my doubts.
    This makes a lot of sense. I will use them cautiously but I won't let my child use them. There are other reasons besides accidents for not allowing your child to use particular MUPs.
    "...an object in motion stays in motion with the same speed and in the same direction unless acted upon by an unbalanced force."

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Camilo View Post
    Which is a perfectly reasonable expectation on any path shared by pedestrians, in my experience. My rule of thumb is don't pass a pedestrian any faster than you could run past him/her - say 6 or 7 mph.

    They have as much right to being safe and carefree on the path as anyone. Running or walking 2 abreast is a perfectly normal and expected way to use an MUP. Kids weaving around is perfectly normal and expected. Dogs on leashes longer than 2 feet is normal and expected.

    the question then is how to deal with these normal and expected uses? Slowly, courteously.

    I ride on the road if i have to go fast, or ride slowly if I have to ride on an MUP. Easy.
    That makes sense. Smart choice. When I drive, I slow down significantly and give cyclists 3 feet or more if I can (and that's not required in my state unfortunately). Good to have the same mentality on the MUP.
    "...an object in motion stays in motion with the same speed and in the same direction unless acted upon by an unbalanced force."

  16. #66
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    How can we hold out any hope for world peace if folks can't even get along while enjoying a walk, run, or bike in the park?

    Grow up
    , this is a park path intended for leisure enjoyment of the outdoors, not a thruway. It's intended to be shared, so treat those you pass as you would a neighbor or friend, with the degree of courtesy needed to get along.

    BTW- please take this as an "if the shoe fits...." kind of comment, But I'm always surprised and disappointed by the whiny, bellyaching, put upon tone I find in many of the posts on the advocacy forum. Many sound like spoiled children crying because another child borrowed your toys.

    I'm not talking about the debate pro or con about segregated bike lanes, but about how possessive some folks are about them. God forbid someone leave an obstacle in them, or do anything to get in your way. If there were a pothole, you'd simply swing around it without a word of complaint, but if a human should be there you want him drawn and quartered.

    As a cyclist, I fight hard to disabuse motorists of the notion that roadways are exclusively theirs, yet on this forum I see theis same motorist attitude except on 2 wheels.
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  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
    How can we hold out any hope for world peace if folks can't even get along while enjoying a walk, run, or bike in the park?

    Grow up
    , this is a park path intended for leisure enjoyment of the outdoors, not a thruway. It's intended to be shared, so treat those you pass as you would a neighbor or friend, with the degree of courtesy needed to get along.

    BTW- please take this as an "if the shoe fits...." kind of comment, But I'm always surprised and disappointed by the whiny, bellyaching, put upon tone I find in many of the posts on the advocacy forum. Many sound like spoiled children crying because another child borrowed your toys.

    I'm not talking about the debate pro or con about segregated bike lanes, but about how possessive some folks are about them. God forbid someone leave an obstacle in them, or do anything to get in your way. If there were a pothole, you'd simply swing around it without a word of complaint, but if a human should be there you want him drawn and quartered.

    As a cyclist, I fight hard to disabuse motorists of the notion that roadways are exclusively theirs, yet on this forum I see theis same motorist attitude except on 2 wheels.
    +1 That about sums it up.
    "...an object in motion stays in motion with the same speed and in the same direction unless acted upon by an unbalanced force."

  18. #68
    Senior Member dynodonn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post

    I'm not talking about the debate pro or con about segregated bike lanes, but about how possessive some folks are about them. God forbid someone leave an obstacle in them, or do anything to get in your way. If there were a pothole, you'd simply swing around it without a word of complaint, but if a human should be there you want him drawn and quartered.
    Have an average citizen place a construction cone the middle of traffic lane to slow down motor vehicles passing by their yard sale, and then see how long before law enforcement arrives to remove it.
    Cyclists, for the most part, take a back seat when it comes to rational thought by a number in the general public. You may refer to it as "whining", I see it as a serious disconnect of thought in the general public's mind when it comes to motorized and non motorized road users.

    As for the pothole, I will report it to the public works department as soon as I'm able to do so, especially if it's located in bike lane.
    Last edited by dynodonn; 05-05-13 at 11:29 AM.

  19. #69
    Senior Member kalliergo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
    As a cyclist, I fight hard to disabuse motorists of the notion that roadways are exclusively theirs, yet on this forum I see the same motorist attitude except on 2 wheels.
    Big +1.
    "What if we fail to stop the erosion of cities by automobiles?. . . In that case, we Americans will hardly need to ponder a mystery that has troubled men for millennia: What is the purpose of life? For us, the answer will be clear, established and for all practical purposes indisputable: The purpose of life is to produce and consume automobiles."

    ~Jane Jacobs, The Death and Life of Great American Cities

  20. #70
    Senior Member dynodonn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post

    As a cyclist, I fight hard to disabuse motorists of the notion that roadways are exclusively theirs, yet on this forum I see theis same motorist attitude except on 2 wheels.
    What good is implementing cycling infrastructure if a number in the general public will not treat it seriously, and a number in the cycling community are willing to maintain the status quo.

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    Some of our local trails are divided into two trails, one for walkers, and one for bikers. Seems like a better system... One time I was riding a gravel trail coming up on a jogger. I altered her several times I was coming, yet no reaction. Then I saw her headphones. At the exact same time I was passing her she decided to do a U-turn without even looking what was coming, well she nearly got ran over, like about a hairs width away. What an idiot. I stopped to tell her so.

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by dynodonn View Post
    Have an average citizen place a construction cone the middle of traffic lane to slow down motor vehicles passing by their yard sale, and then see how long before law enforcement arrives to remove it.
    Cyclists, for the most part, take a back seat when it comes to rational thought by a number in the general public. You may refer to it as "whining", I see it as a serious disconnect of thought in the general public's mind when it comes to motorized and non motorized road users.

    As for the pothole, I will report it to the public works department as soon as I'm able to do so, especially if it's located in bike lane.
    I guess the shoe fits. I have a business on a public street, and we often have to unload trucks that are parallel parked. Using a forklift involves crossing into the now single lane, so we stage traffic cones upstream to slow traffic. Yes, some drivers get impatient, but not many, but not once in 20+ years has anyone, police officer or civilian suggested removing it.

    The first lesson you learn in any city is that you have to go along to get along. (and vice versa).

    As for the impact of a cone in a bikeway I Paraphrase Rick Blaine in Casablanca "but it doesn't take much to see that it doesn't amount to a hill of beans in this crazy world".
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  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by dynodonn View Post
    What good is implementing cycling infrastructure if a number in the general public will not treat it seriously, and a number in the cycling community are willing to maintain the status quo.
    I'm not talking big picture here, we all have differing opinions on the value of bikeways. I'm talking on the out-upon minority, victim mentality that I see in what I characterize as crybaby posts here. If cyclists are right to be so whiny about what they see as interference with their right to zip along bike paths, and more significantly multi-use paths, then motorists are equally right to complain about unloading trucks, and cyclists getting in their way. Since we tend to agree that motorist possessiveness of the roads is misplaced, it follows that it's equally wrong when applied to cyclists.

    I mean this sincerely, but I hope for everyone, that the worst problem they encounter in the next few days is someone or something in their way on the bike lane. Get a grip folks, this is so far down the spectrum of life problems that if you can't take it, you'll be facing a short life of high blood pressure and strokes.
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  24. #74
    Senior Member kalliergo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dynodonn View Post
    What good is implementing cycling infrastructure if a number in the general public will not treat it seriously, and a number in the cycling community are willing to maintain the status quo.
    But you're not talking about treating it "seriously" -- you seem to want it treated as sacrosanct.

    It seems to me that the proper reaction to that cone in the middle of the BL would be to stop briefly and explain to the yard sale folks that it would be more effective and safer to put it on the lane line. Then, move it for them.

    But, if you want to get all exercised about these sorts of things, come visit me and we can go for a weekend ride, stopping dozens of times to toss A-frame real estate signs away from sidewalks and bike lanes and crosswalks. Now, that's righteous fun.
    "What if we fail to stop the erosion of cities by automobiles?. . . In that case, we Americans will hardly need to ponder a mystery that has troubled men for millennia: What is the purpose of life? For us, the answer will be clear, established and for all practical purposes indisputable: The purpose of life is to produce and consume automobiles."

    ~Jane Jacobs, The Death and Life of Great American Cities

  25. #75
    Senior Member dynodonn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post

    I mean this sincerely, but I hope for everyone, that the worst problem they encounter in the next few days is someone or something in their way on the bike lane. Get a grip folks, this is so far down the spectrum of life problems that if you can't take it, you'll be facing a short life of high blood pressure and strokes.
    This isn't a case of someone inadvertently stepping out into a bike lane, this is was a deliberate and misguided thought on someone's part, with their knowing full well what they were doing.

    Illegally block a traffic lane used by motor vehicles, and expect some legal repercussions, illegally block a bike lane or cycling infrastructure, and one can expect a public service announcement.

    http://www.yovenice.com/2012/04/04/i...bicycle-lanes/

    Again, a serious thought disconnect by a number in the general public towards cyclists and cycling infrastructure in general.

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