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  1. #51
    Seńior Member ItsJustMe's Avatar
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    There are simply an overwhelming number of studies that show that cellphone use, even if hands-free, is distracting and increases risk of accident considerably. I'm not aware of any independent, reviewed studies that contradict this, simply anecdotes based on insufficient evidence and the wishful thinking of people who don't want to give up their phones.
    Work: the 8 hours that separates bike rides.

  2. #52
    Mmm hm! agent pombero's Avatar
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    ^^ Exactly.

    What universe does ILTB live in?

  3. #53
    Mmm hm! agent pombero's Avatar
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    Virginia bill proposes ban on Google Glass while driving

    Now make the fine $5000 for drivers disobeying the law. A second offense is a suspended license for 5 years.

  4. #54
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    At the risk of starting (or fueling) a flame war, might I remind folks that just as there are distracted drivers (all types) there are comparable numbers of cyclists equally out of tune with what's happening around them. I'm always impressed with the number of folks riding on roads with ipods and earbuds.

    OTOH - as bad as things are, I'd rather live with the problems of distracted drivers, then the "bikers paradise" where anything new is banned or micro-regulated by the mama state as envisioned by some of the folks here.

    Don't bother flaming me, I'm not talking about you, it's others on this forum.
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  5. #55
    Senior Member kalliergo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
    At the risk of starting (or fueling) a flame war, might I remind folks that just as there are distracted drivers (all types) there are comparable numbers of cyclists equally out of tune with what's happening around them. I'm always impressed with the number of folks riding on roads with ipods and earbuds.
    The latest road users I've yelled were (a) a cyclist running a red light, while talking on his cellphone, blowing through my ROW as I turned right; and (b) two roadies talking to each other who blew a 4-way stop at speed, forcing me to brake hard just as I started up after stopping on the cross street (that one was this afternoon).

    All three of these cyclists responded to my rather polite chiding ("On the phone and running the light?!" and "You really should pay some attention to stop signs!") with torrents of profanity.

    I would say that the average cyclist is probably even worse at road-sharing and traffic law compliance than the average motorist.
    "What if we fail to stop the erosion of cities by automobiles?. . . In that case, we Americans will hardly need to ponder a mystery that has troubled men for millennia: What is the purpose of life? For us, the answer will be clear, established and for all practical purposes indisputable: The purpose of life is to produce and consume automobiles."

    ~Jane Jacobs, The Death and Life of Great American Cities

  6. #56
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by agent pombero View Post
    ^^ Exactly.

    What universe does ILTB live in?
    Thankfully not the "bicycling paradise" that several A&S PDX characters do that they feel must be defended with quick draw knives, scams and paranoia.

  7. #57
    Senior Member kalliergo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by agent pombero View Post
    ILTB is not a rational person to talk with about the dangerous of cellphones or other potential distractions while driving.
    Well, as I keep saying, our experiences of the roads vary wildly in the wide variety of places with which posters here may be familiar. Distracted driving probably just doesn't seem as serious an issue in a county of 42,000 residents that has been losing population since the 1970 census as it does in PDX, SFO, NYC. . .

    I built some of the first cellular systems in small cities and rural areas across the US. If I had foreseen that I was going to spend the later years of my life dodging drivers, cyclists, peds, skaters. . . all with their brains connected by those systems to someone or something far, far away from here and now, I might have chosen more socially beneficial work.
    Last edited by kalliergo; 05-11-13 at 09:31 PM.
    "What if we fail to stop the erosion of cities by automobiles?. . . In that case, we Americans will hardly need to ponder a mystery that has troubled men for millennia: What is the purpose of life? For us, the answer will be clear, established and for all practical purposes indisputable: The purpose of life is to produce and consume automobiles."

    ~Jane Jacobs, The Death and Life of Great American Cities

  8. #58
    Mmm hm! agent pombero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
    Thankfully not the "bicycling paradise" that several A&S PDX characters do that they feel must be defended with quick draw knives, scams and paranoia.
    Ah, typical side ITLB sidestepping the issue...did you read post #50?
    Last edited by no1mad; 05-12-13 at 11:53 AM.

  9. #59
    Not quite there yet Matariki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post

    OTOH - as bad as things are, I'd rather live with the problems of distracted drivers, then the "bikers paradise" where anything new is banned or micro-regulated by the mama state as envisioned by some of the folks here.
    I agree that banning of items has little value in the real world. The act of legislating behavior is all for show. One hopes that any ban would improve awareness of an issue, but it seems that the majority either don't get the word, don't think it applies to them, or choose to deliberately disobey. My opinion leans toward the inverse relationship of regulation vs. development of personal judgement and responsibility; however without regulations, it's hard to correct bad behavior (or punish it when correction doesn't work).

    I see a "biker's paradise" as a road user's paradise where everyone thinks about the need for awareness and partnership with all other road users. How do we get there?

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matariki View Post

    I see a "biker's paradise" as a road user's paradise where everyone thinks about the need for awareness and partnership with all other road users. How do we get there?
    We're already closer to it than we think. The vast majority (very vast majority) are reasonably careful, and courteous to cyclists in many areas. We tend to notice the few that aren't but have no reason to register all that are because there's nothing to note. It's like dogs, most don't bite, but the news reports that that do, especially if they're pit bulls, creating a distorted view of the world.

    There are positive things that can be done. Pavement markings and signage reminding drivers to share the road, PSA's putting cyclists in a better light than just something to steer around -- we lower everybody's health care costs, the fuel we don't buy lowers oil imports, keeps fuel costs lower, and contribute to the nations economic health, cyclists reduce traffic crowding on roads. These are things that actually make things better for those who prefer driving.

    Also some PSA's discussing how and when to safely pass a cyclist, and when it's better for all to wait a bit for a better opportunity.

    Lastly, new road design standards, providing more room on shared lanes, and where it makes sense things like eliminating parking on one side of the road. Also better enforcement of things that help everybody, like double parking rules, providing curbside loading loading zones so trucks wouldn't have to double park.

    But all in all, I don't consider myself at odds with motorists, and feel I have more common interest with them than not. We all need good, well maintained roads to promote transit and commerce. Is that so hard?
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  11. #61
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by agent pombero View Post
    Ah, typical side ITLB sidestepping the issue...did you read post #50?
    I read the post. Please post audio copies of your reading all the references you found on the Internet indicating that YOU have read them, include in the audio your explanation of the studies' relationship to real traffic events, then I'll consider listening to what you have to say on the subject.

  12. #62
    Bicikli Huszár sudo bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
    OTOH - as bad as things are, I'd rather live with the problems of distracted drivers, then the "bikers paradise" where anything new is banned or micro-regulated by the mama state as envisioned by some of the folks here.
    This.
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  13. #63
    Transportation Cyclist turbo1889's Avatar
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    No ban or micro-regulation is needed. Simply start enforcing offenses committed with a vehicle equally the same in criminal law as offenses committed with any other weapon. Nail a few knuckle heads who play with their e-toys instead of drive correctly and cause an "accident" (in quotes for a reason) as a result with felony criminal endangerment by gross negligence and make it stick and splash it all over the news and keep it up and it won't take more then six months for 95% or more of drivers to clean up their act. A speeding car packs more lethal energy then a bullet fired from even the largest and most powerful guns that can be fired from the shoulder and don't have to be mounted. If your mis-use of such a lethal instrument causes loss of life, or injury to health or property then it is only a question of whether the act on your part as the user of such a dangerous instrument was either a deliberate criminal act or an act of criminal negligence and should be dealt with accordingly. No micro regulation or banning needed just make drivers fully responsible for their actions instead of giving them a free pass with just a slap on the wrist just because of their choice of weapon.

    And, yes, cyclist who also commit acts of criminal negligence endangering the life, health, and property of others should also be held accountable in direct proportion to how substantial of a weapon they use. Two ton GVW moving at 60mph vs. 200 pound GVW moving at 25mph both carry potentially dangerous energy if they for example plow into a pedestrian legally crossing with ROW in a crosswalk. One packs a whole lot more dangerous energy then the other but never the less they both can be dangerous if mis-used just to different extents.
    Last edited by turbo1889; 05-12-13 at 02:11 PM.

  14. #64
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kalliergo View Post
    What we need to worry about is that humans aren't smart enough to stop themselves from building and using any technology they can contrive, regardless of the cost and consequences, and regardless of the benefits or lack thereof.

    That's how we ended up with a built environment that looks like this:

    Attachment 316074
    Interesting picture.

    Here is a interesting thought... how many humans made the decisions to build that environment? Certainly most of us end up having to deal with the results of a few. So who are those few that are constantly making decisions to modify the environment to cause it to come to something makes most of us go "whaaaa..."

    I recall at one time contacting a local road engineer and berating him for designing a bike lane to the right of an on ramp... a real conflict area... His response... "I just followed the standards." Well more likely he misinterpreted the standards. I was able to get the BL fixed with help from a local advocacy group. But my point is that someone or some group has to come up with ideas first, and then build them... and often standards come later. But initially ideas and funding come from somewhere. Structures like that above (click on the link in the quoted post) don't just drop out of the air.

  15. #65
    Seńior Member ItsJustMe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by agent pombero View Post
    Virginia bill proposes ban on Google Glass while driving

    Now make the fine $5000 for drivers disobeying the law. A second offense is a suspended license for 5 years.
    If they make that ANY phone use, I'll go along with it. As I've said up-thread, I think Google Glass is LESS distracting than doing the same things without Google Glass, which people are already doing. Where's the $5000 fine for poking at a phone or GPS while driving?
    Work: the 8 hours that separates bike rides.

  16. #66
    Bicikli Huszár sudo bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by turbo1889 View Post
    No ban or micro-regulation is needed. Simply start enforcing offenses committed with a vehicle equally the same in criminal law as offenses committed with any other weapon. Nail a few knuckle heads who play with their e-toys instead of drive correctly and cause an "accident" (in quotes for a reason) as a result with felony criminal endangerment by gross negligence and make it stick and splash it all over the news and keep it up and it won't take more then six months for 95% or more of drivers to clean up their act. A speeding car packs more lethal energy then a bullet fired from even the largest and most powerful guns that can be fired from the shoulder and don't have to be mounted. If your mis-use of such a lethal instrument causes loss of life, or injury to health or property then it is only a question of whether the act on your part as the user of such a dangerous instrument was either a deliberate criminal act or an act of criminal negligence and should be dealt with accordingly. No micro regulation or banning needed just make drivers fully responsible for their actions instead of giving them a free pass with just a slap on the wrist just because of their choice of weapon.
    I think the problem with doing this practically is because it is hard to really crack down on driving while driving is still such a necessity for so very many people. We've made our bed, so to speak. Now, this is less of a problem with things like Google Glass, which is probably not going to be in the hands of working poor anytime soon, but it speaks to the issue of harsher punishments in general: that they will usually disproportionately affect the working poor and end up very regressive in nature.

    We'll never see seriously increased driving standards in America until there are viable alternative transportation methods for most Americans. I agree that we need to take driving more seriously; after all, you're essentially guiding a giant bullet you've strapped yourself into. But I don't think we can be too effective at this when it is nearly a requirement for a decent standard of living in many places in America.

    And, yes, cyclist who also commit acts of criminal negligence endangering the life, health, and property of others should also be held accountable in direct proportion to how substantial of a weapon they use. Two ton GVW moving at 60mph vs. 200 pound GVW moving at 25mph both carry potentially dangerous energy if they for example plow into a pedestrian legally crossing with ROW in a crosswalk. One packs a whole lot more dangerous energy then the other but never the less they both can be dangerous if mis-used just to different extents.
    While I don't quite agree with your weapon analogy, I completely agree that charging based on potential harm is much more smart. It would be silly to charge drivers, cyclists, bus drivers, and pilots all the same for the same issues.
    "The bicycle is the noblest invention of mankind. I love the bicycle. I always have. I can think of no sincere, decent human being, male or female, young or old, saint or sinner, who can resist the bicycle."

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  17. #67
    Senior Member mustang1's Avatar
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    Google Glass is awesome.

    I haven't read all the posts (yet) but a few people talked about this being a new toy. Well, yes, sort of. But doesn't it take the functions of many existing toys and make the accessibility to those functions both easier and safer? The information is right there in front of you. Blink to take a photo, voice activation, seems pretty good to me. I can keep my hands on the handle bars, or the steering wheel, and continue looking in front.

    A few people even mentioned we dont need many things on a car that we currently have. Air con? Keeps me safe on a hot day by allowing me to concentrate on driving safely, rather thing floosying about cooling myself down. Rain sensing wipers? Auto lights? Seem good to me. Defrosting mirrors and windows? Sure, good safety. Handfree phone, auto-dial emergency services when involved in accident? More life-saving stuff. Airbags? Ditto. Auto brakes, auto cruise, lane changing warning, sleep detectors, cyclist detectors (those pesky cyclists always doing something dopey huh?). all good for safety.

    Anyway, no one needs smart phones, or dumb text messaging. How useless! And dont get me started on this silly internet business.... complete waste of time.
    1 cx bike, commuter (light off road), 2 road bikes (sportives and fair weather commuter), 1 mtb (off road fun and antics)

  18. #68
    Not quite there yet Matariki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mustang1 View Post
    And dont get me started on this silly internet business.... complete waste of time.
    Sigh...doncha know!

  19. #69
    Idealistic Troublemaker bjorke's Avatar
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    "on your left"

    I wear Google Glass every day. Sometimes driving, but I almost never ever drive . Every day, riding on both open roads and in dense city traffic. All the criticisms I see here are armchair hang-wringing fantasy. It's fine, it's only distracting if you're foolish, and far less than putting on eye makeup, or leaning your head waaaay back to pour-in the last crumbs from the bag of Cheetos (from a bag that's covering your entire face, eyes included), or driving face-down while reading your ipad, or any of the many things I see drivers here do every.single.day.

    Plus, Glass can help you share good cycling hygiene:

    https://plus.google.com/_/notificati...81737193&uob=8
    Last edited by bjorke; 07-25-13 at 05:15 PM. Reason: typo
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  20. #70
    Senior Member delcrossv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kalliergo View Post
    What we need to worry about is that humans aren't smart enough to stop themselves from building and using any technology they can contrive, regardless of the cost and consequences, and regardless of the benefits or lack thereof.

    That's how we ended up with a built environment that looks like this:

    Attachment 316074
    Meh. That environment shows what at a pretty large subset of humanity finds valuable. Just not the subset that resides here. Folks don't build things that don't benefit anyone. And large events require lots of people to believe that'll be benefited. Even when some nutjob terrorists build a bomb, they are thinking of the potential benefit to them. That's pretty basic philosophy. Where the issue lies is if a technology or rules set that would benefit some subset would adversely affect a much greater subset, hence regulation. I just don't see the end in sight, sorry.
    Last edited by delcrossv; 07-25-13 at 04:30 PM.
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