Advertise on Bikeforums.net



User Tag List

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 33

Thread: Pointing

  1. #1
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Harvest, AL
    My Bikes
    Trek 1000C, Raleigh M50
    Posts
    207
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Pointing

    I recently came across an entry on an engineering blog (http://www.designnews.com/author.asp...&doc_id=262955) titled "How Safe Is Safe Enough?" It's not about bicycle safety, but there IS an interesting comment from a user named Bunter:

    Quote Originally Posted by Bunter
    I see a corollary from the other side of risk. I am a long time bicyclist and motorcyclist but I also drive a van. Drivers are far more likely to pull out in front of you when your vehicle presents little risk to them. The typical claim is they "did not see the bike".

    I used to commute by bike and I did an experiment. One gets pretty good at spotting the cars that are likely to pull out (you can be going 30 mph in a 30 zone and they will ignore your right of way) and I started pointing, arm extended, toward the encroaching vehicle. Essentially comunicating "I see you". They ALWAYS stopped. They ALWAYS saw me. Every single time. Drivers rarely hit bikes and motorcycles because they didn't see them. The bikes just don't threaten their lives so they do what they think they can get away with.

    They were simply willing to risk my life for their convenience. It was actually rather funny to see them hit the brakes, slam the suspension to the bump stops and turn their heads and pretend nothing was going on.
    Has anyone tried pointing like this? And did it work? If this works everywhere, and not just in some locale with some unique traffic dynamics, this could be better than all the lights, horns, and reflectors in the world.

  2. #2
    Senior Member dynodonn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    6,873
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by bemoore View Post
    Has anyone tried pointing like this? And did it work? If this works everywhere, and not just in some locale with some unique traffic dynamics, this could be better than all the lights, horns, and reflectors in the world.
    The last thing I want to be doing, while working peak urban traffic, is to have one of my hands off the handle bar, and away from the brake lever.

  3. #3
    Gone.
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    509
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by bemoore View Post
    Has anyone tried pointing like this? And did it work?
    A head-mount halogen works wonders in this regard.
    My speculation was that it applies to some degree in cycling, and I used the previous proof as my reasoning, but I can't prove how exactly it applies to it and to what degree. That, I have admitted, is speculation based on reasoning, but not at this point provable.

  4. #4
    The Recumbent Quant cplager's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Norwalk, CT
    My Bikes
    2012 Cruzbike Sofrider, 2013 Cruzigami Mantis
    Posts
    2,893
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by corvuscorvax View Post
    A head-mount halogen works wonders in this regard.
    I ride with a bright handlebar-mounted flashing light (which I find cuts down a lot on people pulling out in front of me), but I can see the advantage of a helmet mounted one for this purpose.
    http://Charles.Plager.net
    http://RecumbentQuant.blogspot.com

  5. #5
    Senior Member kalliergo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    SF Bay
    My Bikes
    Trek Valencia+, Dutch cargo bike, Karate Monkey, etc.
    Posts
    708
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Pointing usually works. As someone already said, sometimes hands need to stay on the bars.

    I'm gonna have to think about the helmet-mounted strobe. I'm already a totally-Fred oldster, so there's no image problem. And it makes sense that it would work, too.
    "What if we fail to stop the erosion of cities by automobiles?. . . In that case, we Americans will hardly need to ponder a mystery that has troubled men for millennia: What is the purpose of life? For us, the answer will be clear, established and for all practical purposes indisputable: The purpose of life is to produce and consume automobiles."

    ~Jane Jacobs, The Death and Life of Great American Cities

  6. #6
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Lancaster, PA, USA
    My Bikes
    2012 Trek Allant
    Posts
    1,581
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I sometimes point in my car at drivers that look like they might pull out in front of me.

    "I didn't see him" really means "I thought I could make it".

  7. #7
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Seattle
    My Bikes
    91 Trek franken '81 Schwinn Voyager
    Posts
    138
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I do it regularly, and it works. I find a focused glare with a head snap and protruding jaw works almost as well when I can't use an arm. When I can't see the driver due to reflections or bad lighting, I direct my communication to where they are sitting....
    Nobody slower, and nobody lovin' it more...

  8. #8
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    8,570
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by bemoore View Post
    Has anyone tried pointing like this? And did it work? If this works everywhere, and not just in some locale with some unique traffic dynamics, this could be better than all the lights, horns, and reflectors in the world.
    Yes, and it appears to work somewhat (it might not always work) for me.

    Of course, the reasons Bunter thinks why it works might not be correct.

  9. #9
    Transportation Cyclist turbo1889's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Montana U.S.A.
    My Bikes
    Too many to list, some I built myself including the frame. I "do" ~ Human-Only-Pedal-Powered-Cycles, Human-Electric-Hybrid-Cycles, Human-IC-Hybrid-Cycles, and one Human-IC-Electric-3way-Hybrid-Cycle
    Posts
    1,206
    Mentioned
    7 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Yes, it does work most of the time, occasionally it will just p*ss them off and make them even more troublesome. I mainly use it for those that look like they are intending to "Left T-Cross" me (taking a left across my path refusing to yield when taking that left as required by the rules of the road when they don't have a protected left turn green arrow but are doing a conventional left where they are suppose to yield to straight through traffic) and those trying to pull a "Right Entry Mow Down" when take a right on red when I'm going straight through on the green or when I've got a protected green arrow left turn and there is only one lane to go into and they think they can pull a right on red and violate the right of way of the protected green arrow left turn traffic. Occasionally also use it on "Nose Outs" who have nosed out far enough that they are blocking the shoulder edge when I'm riding on the shoulder of a high speed highway that has a good shoulder edge suitable for riding on and the speed of traffic in the main lanes is 45+ mph making the shoulder edge the appropriate place to ride out of respect for other road users due to the high speed differential. I also use it occasionally when I'm driving a car as well (I'm car light not car free).
    Last edited by turbo1889; 05-08-13 at 02:53 PM.

  10. #10
    Cycle Dallas MMACH 5's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Land of Gar, TX
    My Bikes
    Lucinda--2010 Jamis Aurora Elite & a few others
    Posts
    3,402
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I've not tried the pointing technique, but I try and make eye-contact and give a nod to drivers as they approach on cross streets. It seems to help.
    That's gonna leave a mark.

  11. #11
    Transportation Cyclist turbo1889's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Montana U.S.A.
    My Bikes
    Too many to list, some I built myself including the frame. I "do" ~ Human-Only-Pedal-Powered-Cycles, Human-Electric-Hybrid-Cycles, Human-IC-Hybrid-Cycles, and one Human-IC-Electric-3way-Hybrid-Cycle
    Posts
    1,206
    Mentioned
    7 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by MMACH 5 View Post
    . . . I try and make eye-contact and give a nod to drivers as they approach on cross streets. It seems to help.
    At least in my area I have found that to lead to the exact opposite. Up here they take a nod as "go ahead and go" and that is what they do so I only give a nod at a 4-way stop where I know they got to the intersection first and they have right of way and I have to wait for them. Giving a nod when they have a stop sign or a red light and I've got the green or the through street without a stop sign results in them violating my right of way, sometimes at point blank range resulting in either a collision or me having to lay the bike down to avoid getting run over. They take a nod as permission up here, might work in your area but I would caution to use of the nod since I would be surprised if the nod isn't taken as permission to go a lot of other places as well besides just my local area.

  12. #12
    Cycle Dallas MMACH 5's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Land of Gar, TX
    My Bikes
    Lucinda--2010 Jamis Aurora Elite & a few others
    Posts
    3,402
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by turbo1889 View Post
    At least in my area I have found that to lead to the exact opposite. Up here they take a nod as "go ahead and go" and that is what they do so I only give a nod at a 4-way stop where I know they got to the intersection first and they have right of way and I have to wait for them. Giving a nod when they have a stop sign or a red light and I've got the green or the through street without a stop sign results in them violating my right of way, sometimes at point blank range resulting in either a collision or me having to lay the bike down to avoid getting run over. They take a nod as permission up here, might work in your area but I would caution to use of the nod since I would be surprised if the nod isn't taken as permission to go a lot of other places as well besides just my local area.
    Wow. That would make it all very frustrating. I've never had a person who saw me and exchanged a nod pull out on me. However, I did exchange a nod with a couple of kids coming out of a local high school only to be drilled in the back by a big machine-bolt and nut combo. I looked back and they were just giggling their heads off, as they pulled out and drove off, in the other direction.
    That's gonna leave a mark.

  13. #13
    benter
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Los Gatos, CA
    My Bikes
    Bacchetta Giro 20
    Posts
    56
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I point at cars in driveways and side streets when leading another cyclist just as I point at glass, sand & leaves on the roadway.

  14. #14
    absent Ferrous Bueller's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    DC
    Posts
    621
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I point at people in cars 'cause they're fat and sad.

  15. #15
    24-Speed Machine Chris516's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Wash. Grove, MD
    My Bikes
    2003 Specialized Allez 24-Speed Road Bike
    Posts
    5,106
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by bemoore View Post
    I recently came across an entry on an engineering blog (http://www.designnews.com/author.asp...&doc_id=262955) titled "How Safe Is Safe Enough?" It's not about bicycle safety, but there IS an interesting comment from a user named Bunter:



    Has anyone tried pointing like this? And did it work? If this works everywhere, and not just in some locale with some unique traffic dynamics, this could be better than all the lights, horns, and reflectors in the world.
    I can't point because it would throw me off balance.

    But, Instead, I 'ride the line'(white/double-yellow) through intersection, shaking my head at the same time to indicate 'NO! Don't even try to turn in front of me!'.

  16. #16
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Hawthorne NJ
    My Bikes
    Surly LHT Giant TCR Advanced Kona Kula Supreme Wabi Classic '33 Iver Johnson Mobicycle
    Posts
    367
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Yeah I do this and it definitely works almost 100% of the time.

    I think many drivers try this "start pulling out" to see if a driver or rider will cede the right of way. If the rider or driver slows or hesitates then they continue. If they don't, then they stop and wait their turn.

    Pointing communicates that you are aware that you have the right of way and expect them to stop.

  17. #17
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Buffalo, NY
    My Bikes
    Schwinn Tourist (2010), Trek 6000 (1999)
    Posts
    1,117
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by bemoore View Post
    I recently came across an entry on an engineering blog (http://www.designnews.com/author.asp...&doc_id=262955) titled "How Safe Is Safe Enough?" It's not about bicycle safety, but there IS an interesting comment from a user named Bunter:



    Has anyone tried pointing like this? And did it work? If this works everywhere, and not just in some locale with some unique traffic dynamics, this could be better than all the lights, horns, and reflectors in the world.
    I try to make eye contact with drivers who seem like they are going to pull in front of me in an unsafe manner. I think it works as well.

    I don't agree with the conclusion that the driver is just willing to risk a life for convenience I think it's a deeper rooted issue: If something presents no danger (A smaller vehicle), the brain kicks in the automatic reply,"SAFE". Something out of the ordinary snaps the circuit, and says,"UNSAFE".

    It could be pointing, making eye contact, a flashing light... Whatever makes it "unusual".

  18. #18
    enthusiast JamieElenbaas's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Kirkland, WA
    My Bikes
    2010 BMC SL 01 Roadracer, 2012 Davidson Tandem
    Posts
    500
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    A head-mount halogen works wonders in this regard.
    +1000 Especially in crummy weather.

  19. #19
    Senior Member Keith99's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    5,804
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by jerseyJim View Post
    Yeah I do this and it definitely works almost 100% of the time.

    I think many drivers try this "start pulling out" to see if a driver or rider will cede the right of way. If the rider or driver slows or hesitates then they continue. If they don't, then they stop and wait their turn.

    Pointing communicates that you are aware that you have the right of way and expect them to stop.
    That makes some sense.

    I see quite a few drivers coming out of lots that start rolling early, and that is when I'm driving. Makes me cringe as a driver. As a cyclist continuing at speed represents a risk not worth taking.
    Perish any man who suspects that these men either did or suffered anything unseemly.

  20. #20
    Senior Member rydabent's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Lincoln Ne
    My Bikes
    RANS Stratus TerraTrike Cruiser
    Posts
    4,093
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    This might be a good suggetion to try. Especially on my trike this would be no problem at all.

  21. #21
    Senior Member kalliergo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    SF Bay
    My Bikes
    Trek Valencia+, Dutch cargo bike, Karate Monkey, etc.
    Posts
    708
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by UberGeek View Post
    I don't agree with the conclusion that the driver is just willing to risk a life for convenience I think it's a deeper rooted issue: If something presents no danger (A smaller vehicle), the brain kicks in the automatic reply,"SAFE". Something out of the ordinary snaps the circuit, and says,"UNSAFE".

    It could be pointing, making eye contact, a flashing light... Whatever makes it "unusual".
    Good analysis. Agree.
    "What if we fail to stop the erosion of cities by automobiles?. . . In that case, we Americans will hardly need to ponder a mystery that has troubled men for millennia: What is the purpose of life? For us, the answer will be clear, established and for all practical purposes indisputable: The purpose of life is to produce and consume automobiles."

    ~Jane Jacobs, The Death and Life of Great American Cities

  22. #22
    Senior Member epiking's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Arizona
    My Bikes
    '86 Miyata 1000, '85 Raleigh Elkhorn (retired), 2000 Specializer HardRock
    Posts
    90
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I have found pointing/signaling to be an effective technique to eliminate confusion of my intentions while cycling. I feel most of the near misses and actual mishaps I have had were due to communication/confusion. There is a timing issue involved though, for the 1% of dip-wads that just don't care, one must have both hands in position for avoidance or panic stopping. At first it felt awkward, but after seeing the recognition from the motorist, I figured it was a good tool to aid communications. Now it feels very natural and I find myself pointing and signaling even when no one is around.
    1985 Raleigh Elkhorn
    1986 Miyata 1000
    2000 Specialized HardRock

  23. #23
    Senior Member WPeabody's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Monterey Bay area, California
    My Bikes
    Terratrike Tour, recumbent tadpole tricycle.
    Posts
    523
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I will signal my turns even if no one is around, (like cars are supposed to do, even when no one is around) The only time I point at people is I point outward toward the center of the road when I see them coming up in my mirrors and they are going to pass me too close, and if they don't respond, it is followed up with a bending of the elbow and waving forearm hand pointed upward, so the movement will get their attention better. but this is from someone on a recumbent trike, so I'm in a better position to do this...
    Last edited by WPeabody; 05-20-13 at 07:59 PM.
    What do you call a cyclist who sells potpourri on the road? A pedaling petal-peddler.

  24. #24
    Senior Member zeppinger's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Seoul, South Korea
    My Bikes
    Giant FCR3, Surly LHT
    Posts
    1,957
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I find that even just pointing my head at people who are thinking about pulling out in front me works to some extent. I wear a head mounted light usually on strobe and it seems to work with all but the most oblivious drivers.

  25. #25
    Living 'n Dying in -Time JBHoren's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Greenacres, FL
    Posts
    412
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I do the Robert DeNiro in "Meet The Fockers" thing, where I point at my eyes with the index and middle fingers of my left hand, then extend my left arm, hand, and index finger and point directly at the "offending" driver. So far, it's worked like a champ.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •