Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > >

Advocacy & Safety Cyclists should expect and demand safe accommodation on every public road, just as do all other users. Discuss your bicycle advocacy and safety concerns here.

User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 05-16-13, 12:23 AM   #26
CB HI
Cycle Year Round
 
CB HI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Honolulu, HI
Bikes:
Posts: 12,063
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 260 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
You are guessing here.

It looks like it was filled on August 2011.

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=South...78.84,,0,10.69

What are the laws about riding on sidewalks there?
You are guessing that I am guessing.

PS - google map image dates cannot be relied upon. Here, I can show you one by just playing with the angle and zoom that implies the gap was filled Sep 2009, which we know is not true.
http://goo.gl/maps/xiUR5
__________________
Land of the Free, Because of the Brave.
CB HI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-13, 07:17 AM   #27
njkayaker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Bikes:
Posts: 9,544
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 97 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by CB HI View Post
You are guessing that I am guessing.
Your statement is unsupported. If you have support for it and don't let people see that, it's unsupported.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CB HI View Post
PS - google map image dates cannot be relied upon. Here, I can show you one by just playing with the angle and zoom that implies the gap was filled Sep 2009, which we know is not true.
http://goo.gl/maps/xiUR5
??? There's grass growing in the gap. It wasn't filled when that picture was taken.

You have no evidence indicating that the dates can't be relied on (it's possible but your guessing doesn't make it true).

Last edited by njkayaker; 05-16-13 at 08:12 AM.
njkayaker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-13, 02:59 PM   #28
CB HI
Cycle Year Round
 
CB HI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Honolulu, HI
Bikes:
Posts: 12,063
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 260 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
Your statement is unsupported. If you have support for it and don't let people see that, it's unsupported.



??? There's grass growing in the gap. It wasn't filled when that picture was taken.

You have no evidence indicating that the dates can't be relied on (it's possible but your guessing doesn't make it true).
Feel free to keep your blinders on.
__________________
Land of the Free, Because of the Brave.
CB HI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-13, 03:32 PM   #29
njkayaker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Bikes:
Posts: 9,544
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 97 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by CB HI View Post
Feel free to keep your blinders on.


Yup, you are just guessing and have no support for the stuff you are saying.

njkayaker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-13, 06:14 PM   #30
Matariki
Not quite there yet
 
Matariki's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Monkey Bottom, NC
Bikes: A bunch of old steel bikes + an ICE trike
Posts: 1,001
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Since that crossing leads to and integrates with a MUP, having those perpendicular gaps is a bad design. The cyclist surely shares blame in her failure to be observant and avoid the gap, but I think her suit has some merit. She'll have to prove actual damages, though, and I expect her inflated figure will be drastically reduced.

I encounter all kinds of similar road hazards every day and feel that I have to really pay attention. Most of the fixed hazards have already been mapped in my head, but there are many temporary hazards, like tree branches, bricks, etc, that just show up. I kinda think that I would assume ownership for any incident caused by them simply because the lapse in awareness was mine. Perhaps I would change my mind if I had a lot of thinking time after being laid up by a crash, though.
Matariki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-13, 07:34 PM   #31
CB HI
Cycle Year Round
 
CB HI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Honolulu, HI
Bikes:
Posts: 12,063
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 260 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matariki View Post
She'll have to prove actual damages, though, and I expect her inflated figure will be drastically reduced.
She got a concussion. $10,000 is a very low number for a concussion. Wait and see what the NFL players get.
__________________
Land of the Free, Because of the Brave.
CB HI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-13, 08:05 AM   #32
david58
Senior Member
 
david58's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Los Alamos, NM
Bikes: Fuji Cross Comp, BMC SR02
Posts: 1,829
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matariki View Post
Since that crossing leads to and integrates with a MUP, having those perpendicular gaps is a bad design. The cyclist surely shares blame in her failure to be observant and avoid the gap, but I think her suit has some merit. She'll have to prove actual damages, though, and I expect her inflated figure will be drastically reduced.

I encounter all kinds of similar road hazards every day and feel that I have to really pay attention. Most of the fixed hazards have already been mapped in my head, but there are many temporary hazards, like tree branches, bricks, etc, that just show up. I kinda think that I would assume ownership for any incident caused by them simply because the lapse in awareness was mine. Perhaps I would change my mind if I had a lot of thinking time after being laid up by a crash, though.
At what point do we accept responsibility? Was she riding so fast she couldn't react? Filtering thru peds? Not paying attention? $10K is almost nothing - cheap "go away" money. If she wins, she got away with blaming someone else for her inattentiveness.

Don't you dial in and get careful on a railroad crossing?
david58 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-13, 08:18 AM   #33
dietz31684
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2013
Bikes:
Posts: 15
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I'm going to sue the county for the stick in the road that went in my spokes. County maintenance really should have been out at 5:30 am cleaning up after the wind from the night before...why should I have steered around it?

She doesn't deserve a dime and hopefully learned a lesson.
dietz31684 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-13, 10:16 AM   #34
Booger1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Gaseous Cloud around Uranus
Bikes:
Posts: 3,730
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 22 Post(s)
I'm guessing the railroad made the $700 offer so she could get some designer glasses.......to go along with her $8000 bike.....
Booger1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-13, 10:43 AM   #35
Matariki
Not quite there yet
 
Matariki's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Monkey Bottom, NC
Bikes: A bunch of old steel bikes + an ICE trike
Posts: 1,001
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by CB HI View Post
She got a concussion. $10,000 is a very low number for a concussion. Wait and see what the NFL players get.
Article said that she was claiming only 100 or so for medical. Most of the suit was for bike related expenses, which seemed way high. I agree with you that her injuries probably were more costly than presented in the article, but that's what it said. We all know that the media always gets the story right!
Matariki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-13, 10:58 AM   #36
Matariki
Not quite there yet
 
Matariki's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Monkey Bottom, NC
Bikes: A bunch of old steel bikes + an ICE trike
Posts: 1,001
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by david58 View Post
At what point do we accept responsibility? Was she riding so fast she couldn't react? Filtering thru peds? Not paying attention? $10K is almost nothing - cheap "go away" money. If she wins, she got away with blaming someone else for her inattentiveness.

Don't you dial in and get careful on a railroad crossing?
I agree wholeheartedly with you here, but I'm kinda cursed with the ability to argue both sides of an issue. I think that anyone designing or developing specs for a design involving a road feature should really think about anticipating and evaluating potential for design-related hazards. My gosh, this crossing integrates with a MUP. Wouldn't it be reasonable to expect bike traffic. I expect architects and engineers to think proactively and not just plan to fix things after beta testing by the public.

I cross a number of rail tracks on my daily commute and definitely pay attention. She should have done, too, but had the design were not screwed up, the probability that she would have crashed would be way lower. Think of it this way: when people do dumb things, they deserve negative reinforcement. The cyclist did a dumb thing and was duly reinforced. The crossing designer was also dumb and so should be slapped around as well.
Matariki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-13, 11:02 AM   #37
sauerwald
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: San Jose, CA
Bikes: Bianchi San Remo - set up as a utility bike, Peter Mooney Road bike, Peter Mooney commute bike,Dahon Folder,Schwinn Paramount Tandem
Posts: 1,838
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ItsJustMe View Post
Honestly, anyone who crashes on railroad tracks is probably an idiot. Those things are wheel snatchers and you should EXPECT trouble and watch out for it. I cross a few tracks on my route and I'm at the peak of awareness when crossing them, carefully picking the route over them to cross as perpendicular to the tracks as possible and avoiding problem spots which inevitably occur when you disrupt the road surface like that.
One of the very few crashes that I have had was on a railroad track - the location was at the intersection of Forest/Allen/Stevens avenues in Portland, ME - there was a pothole next to the track itself, and it was raining, so as I rode through the intersection, it looked like a puddle - my front wheel dropped into the pothole, I went over the handlebars and suffered various scrapes and bruises. Bike as relatively undamaged.
I reported the crash to the DOT, and they had the pothole filled within a week. I am not the type to sue.
sauerwald is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-13, 02:03 PM   #38
CB HI
Cycle Year Round
 
CB HI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Honolulu, HI
Bikes:
Posts: 12,063
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 260 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by david58 View Post
At what point do we accept responsibility? Was she riding so fast she couldn't react? Filtering thru peds? Not paying attention? $10K is almost nothing - cheap "go away" money. If she wins, she got away with blaming someone else for her inattentiveness.

Don't you dial in and get careful on a railroad crossing?
Do we not teach that cyclist should cross railroad track perpendicularly. Did she not do that and thus run into a wheel trap that should never have been allowed to remain.

Yes she shares responsibility, just as the railroad shares responsibility for the hazard.
__________________
Land of the Free, Because of the Brave.
CB HI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-13, 02:06 PM   #39
CB HI
Cycle Year Round
 
CB HI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Honolulu, HI
Bikes:
Posts: 12,063
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 260 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post


Yup, you are just guessing and have no support for the stuff you are saying.

Yup, you are just guessing on the date of the google photo as I have proven and you have no support for the stuff you are saying.
__________________
Land of the Free, Because of the Brave.
CB HI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-13, 02:27 PM   #40
OneGoodLeg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: North Attleboro, MA
Bikes: Surly Steamroller
Posts: 264
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I really don't see that tricky of a crossing. I cross two sets of tracks every morning on my commute that are in fair worse disrepair, have done so in all weather conditions, and haven't even come close to falling.

Did anyone read her injuries? Some of those injuries sound conjoured Right shoulder - left wrist - left knee - lower back. This is a bike crash, not a game of twister. If she hit all of those spots and suffered a concussion while wearing a helmet, my money is on that she is a pathelete who was going way too fast on the mup, took the corner too fast, slid on the rail, into the crack/wheel grabber and got catapulted.

I've had one concussion in 30+ years of biking and I got rocked pretty hard on that crash.

Also, in car accident related lawsuits, you only get re-imbursed common repair value, regardless of your expense paid out. That means, if her repairs were done at the most expensive shop in town, she's not getting that money back.

Last edited by OneGoodLeg; 05-17-13 at 02:56 PM.
OneGoodLeg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-13, 02:42 PM   #41
apollored
Senior Member
 
apollored's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Manchester UK
Bikes: Apollo Revival Mountain Bike
Posts: 638
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Of all the space on the railway track that she had to cross over she picked the cracked bit.

Not looking where she was riding, esp on somewhere as potentially dangerous as a railtrack?

Had no one pointed out the crack to the railroad company or had it not been inspected recently?

Even so, watch where she was going then maybe she wouldnt have been caught up.
apollored is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-13, 06:21 PM   #42
Camilo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Bikes:
Posts: 4,155
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 65 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by dietz31684 View Post
I'm going to sue the county for the stick in the road that went in my spokes. County maintenance really should have been out at 5:30 am cleaning up after the wind from the night before...why should I have steered around it?

She doesn't deserve a dime and hopefully learned a lesson.
I think there's a big difference between random hazards that happen because cycling is done outside in "nature" (the stick) vs. observable, predictable, and repairable hazards or defects caused by actual design flaws. Yes the cyclist has responsibility, but "professionals" who design roads, railroad crossings and bike routes have responsibility to recognize defects and hazards. My bias is that they are responsible, if not totally, a good portion.

In case anyone wants to bring in street maintenance, grates, and potholes - I would put grates into the "designers have responsibility" and potholes into a very gray area. They are not designed into the road, and to a certain extent are "natural" hazards. There is no way any street department can completely rid their streets of hazards caused by nature or wear and tear because taxpayer funding is limited. To me, if I were sitting in judgement, I'd have to look at patterns, prior knowledge, etc.

I'm not saying whether she has a basis for a lawsuit or not - but my bias is that she does. I think that the common use of that area is cycling and that the hazard should have been recognized as such, and could have been corrected either through proper design or repair. Sure, she might have been careless or reckless (we don't know), and IF so, that could have caused her to crash in a situation where someone exercising due care could have avoided, but again, I see a hazard designed into the thing.

Like I explained in my wife's crash above - the railroad crossing was obviously defective - yes, I say defective, because the asphalt and steel rail were at such a height disparity that even an experience cyclist could have been caught unawares and crashed under what anyone would call normal safe riding. The defect was repaired soon afterwards and the crossing is much safer and probably totally safe for even inexperienced riders.
Camilo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-13, 06:54 AM   #43
njkayaker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Bikes:
Posts: 9,544
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 97 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by CB HI View Post
Yup, you are just guessing on the date of the google photo as I have proven and you have no support for the stuff you are saying.


No, your claim that the dates are wrong is unsupported.

The google shots show that it was not filled before and filled after (a year later).

Anyway, given how infrequent the pictures are, you can't really tell when the gap was open and when it was filled.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CB HI View Post
PS - google map image dates cannot be relied upon. Here, I can show you one by just playing with the angle and zoom that implies the gap was filled Sep 2009, which we know is not true.
http://goo.gl/maps/xiUR5
There is grass growing in the gap in the "before" picture!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by CB HI View Post
claims he fixed the danger within 24 hours
You have no idea whether this claim is false (as you are implying). If he doesn't have evidence to support it, the claim won't help his case at all anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CB HI View Post
but a photo is taken likely well after that,
It's a random photo of the site in a newspaper (with no date associated with it). (It's a reasonable guess that it was taken by the newspaper staff later, around the time the article was written/published.) It isn't evidence presented in a trial (like you bizarrely think it is).

Last edited by njkayaker; 05-23-13 at 07:13 AM.
njkayaker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-26-13, 07:12 AM   #44
rydabent
Senior Member
 
rydabent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Lincoln Ne
Bikes: RANS Stratus TerraTrike Cruiser
Posts: 5,766
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 168 Post(s)
Anyone can see from the picture that there was indeed a big gap in the riding direction that narrow bike wheels could get trapped in.

Further as to her being careless, she could very well have been looking both ways for trains.
rydabent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-26-13, 07:28 AM   #45
-=(8)=-
♋ ☮♂ ☭ ☯
 
-=(8)=-'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: 40205 'ViLLeBiLLie
Bikes: Sngl Spd's, 70's- 80's vintage, D-tube Folder
Posts: 7,903
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
The A&S (Legal Beagle) Shadows know!
The hilarious irony here is, some of the ones who insult the loudest about "blaming the cyclist" in other dopey threads,
are the ones . . . . you guessed it, blaming the cyclist
__________________
-ADVOCACY-☜ Radical VC = Car people on bikes. Just say "NO"
-=(8)=- is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-26-13, 07:38 AM   #46
kenji666
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: On yer left
Bikes:
Posts: 1,648
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
She was asking for it.
kenji666 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-26-13, 07:42 AM   #47
eja_ bottecchia
Senior Member
 
eja_ bottecchia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Bikes:
Posts: 3,520
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
The A&S (Legal Beagle) Shadows know!
Yep...plusI love reading posts from all the uber-alert, uber-prepared, uber-knowing riders here who are so perfect that they never had a single fall or accident where they were actually at fault. I am in total awe!
eja_ bottecchia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-26-13, 07:18 PM   #48
rdtindsm
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Bikes:
Posts: 215
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
+1 camilo

While it would be easy to overlook the hazard of the gap in the direction of travel, it was foreseeable. That the area would have been used by MUP riders susceptible to the hazard increased the responsibility of the designers for the safety of its intended use.

Without comments on the details of damages claimed, I don't think the claim is frivolous, and would not be inclined to forgo damages simply because $**t happens.

While McDonalds had successfully defended a number of scalding lawsuits, the suing lawyer was able to show that they were serving coffee at temperatures (190f) above industry norms and higher than the optimum temperature for enjoyment (160). They certainly knew that there was a problem. I don't know if it was part of the suit, but it has been suggested that part of the reason for the high temperatures was to minimize bottomless cups as customers waited for their drink to cool. The size of the award was less because of the severity of injuries than because of the arrogance that MickyD had shown in failing to protect their customers.
rdtindsm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-26-13, 07:27 PM   #49
rdtindsm
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Bikes:
Posts: 215
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
A related issue was the successful suit by the family of a cyclist who was killed when he/she crashed on a road hazard in Iowa on RAGBRAI.

I don't know the details, but my recollection is that it was a longitudinal crack, and that, while it may have been a reasonably normal road hazard, the special circumstances of having the road used by 10,000 cyclists created a higher level of responsibility.

It did cause counties to consider banning touring events. I believe RAGBRAI has taken the responsibility for liability insurance on similar incidents as the solution.
rdtindsm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-26-13, 08:43 PM   #50
CB HI
Cycle Year Round
 
CB HI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Honolulu, HI
Bikes:
Posts: 12,063
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 260 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdtindsm View Post
A related issue was the successful suit by the family of a cyclist who was killed when he/she crashed on a road hazard in Iowa on RAGBRAI.

I don't know the details, but my recollection is that it was a longitudinal crack, and that, while it may have been a reasonably normal road hazard, the special circumstances of having the road used by 10,000 cyclists created a higher level of responsibility.
A few cyclist had fallen due to the crack earlier in the day. The county put a cop there to direct cyclist away from the hazard but at some point pulled the cop off. Then the cyclist crashed and died.
__________________
Land of the Free, Because of the Brave.
CB HI is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:02 AM.