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  1. #76
    Senior Member robble's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CB HI View Post
    robble - See what I mean about Bek.

    PS - Is there a reason I am unaware of that he keeps calling you robbie?
    Thanks for posting the pics of our wonderous bike lanes.

    Yea, I can see what you mean about Bek. Doesn't live here and thinks he knows everything about it while copping attitude. As far as my name - he seems to have a hard time telling the difference between "i" and "l" hence him also calling Aiea Alea.. maybe he has bad eyesight and that's why he couldn't understand how bad our bike lanes are even though you posted several examples.


    Bek - get rid of "bike lanes" and install sharrows to re-enforce to drivers that bikes are allowed in the regular lane. I'll be much happier taking the lane instead of riding in our extremely poor "bike lanes" - bike lanes which I do NOT ride in during the bad parts (which is most of them). *hint* CBHI wasn't IN the bike lane when he was hit. The driver that hit him complained that he should have been. Go back and read that part again. Maybe even look at the pictures of the bike lanes again to see why we complain about them. They do nothing but make motorists think we shouldn't be in the regular lane.


    edit: Since I doubt Bek will go back and look again I'll repost it (emphasis mine):
    Quote Originally Posted by CB HI View Post
    A hit and run driver and his wife both testified in court that the reason I got hit was that I was riding in the middle of the lane and not in the mandatory bike lane.

    Photo of the so called bike lane:

    Last edited by robble; 05-19-13 at 10:44 PM.
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  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    I agree. Howoever, another important issue in North American is our very limited funding. We simply do not have the funds to build a connected network of Dutch-style separated infrastructure. And, imo, a poorly connected network of separated paths is worse than nothing. Given our limited funds, German-style bike lanes are the better option
    I agree. Given the reality of funding constraints, it would be far better to have a more-complete grid of well-done bike lanes than a small set of bike paths to nowhere. Unfortunately, that seems to be too nuanced for many "advocates" to get behind.

  3. #78
    Cycle Year Round CB HI's Avatar
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    Just a point of clarification on my part. The Photo shows a one foot wide shoulder and not an actual bike lane. The driver and wife just claimed it a bike lane since I would have been required to legally ride in a bike lane. This same type claim is made by many motorist in court cases (all 3 I have been involved in).

    Thus, in support of B. Carfree post of motorist views of bike lanes. Once an area has bike lanes, motorist believe we must be in a bike lane, even if one does not exist.
    Quote Originally Posted by CB HI View Post
    A hit and run driver and his wife both testified in court that the reason I got hit was that I was riding in the middle of the lane and not in the mandatory bike lane.

    Photo of the so called bike lane:

    PS - Even the motorist insurance adjuster told the judge that there was no bike lane on that road and it was legal for me to take the lane. The driver and his lawyer managed to even piss off their own witness.
    Last edited by CB HI; 05-19-13 at 11:24 PM.
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  4. #79
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    some select quotes from Jan Heine, author of the ill-founded 'critique' of protected bike lane and cycletrack and path networks. Despite the seeming disapproval of cycle tracks in Seattle, Jan actually posts he thinks well protected cycle paths are 'always' his first choice for cyclists!

    Jan goes on in his blog comments to actually endorse cycle tracks. just not the one his hyperfocused randonneur senses have detected needs some improvement.

    Jan Heine is for a wide variety of bike facilities, including cycle tracks. Well implemented, separated bikeways are his 'first choice always'

    Quote Originally Posted by Jan Heine
    Separate paths are useful and safe where there are no intersections .................I don’t disagree with the fact that many riders don’t feel safe when riding on the street..................I do agree with you that getting more people on bikes is crucial, and that having to cycle in the street is a big obstacle for many people................ Bike lanes in effect provide a place where cyclists can ride at a different speed from other traffic............I agree that in some places, separate facilities are great. If you can design a bike path that doesn’t have intersections at every block, it can be a huge asset. In Seattle, they even built two underpasses so the Burke-Gilman Trail can pass under two major roads without intersection..............I agree that design is crucial...............Having separate light cycles for cars and bicycles can help with safety................I agree that infrastructure can be good, but it needs to be applied with good judgment................You know as well as I do that neither Aurora nor Greenwood (nearby main routes) are suitable or safe for cycling...............I do understand that many riders aren’t comfortable doing this (share lane with traffic), so we should provide alternative routes.......Yes, taking the lane for the exclusive use of cyclists is a great solution, and one that I wholeheartedly approve of.......Yes, we agree on many things. I am all for separate facilities where they can be implemented well. That always will be my first choice,..................As I have stated multiple times, I am not opposed to “protected” bike facilities, if they are truly protected. ............The separate cycle track along Shilshole remains the best option. The industrial driveways mostly are disused, and the four or five big ones could be dealt with easily............... There is a painted bike lane. So you have separation of cars and trucks in one lane and cyclists in the other............
    (talking about south Seattle) Of course, the lack of intersections also means that it be a great candidate for a separate facility that is totally off the roadway...............What I am advocating is the best approach for each situation............




    Jan would tell the kids in Honolulu ....

    Quote Originally Posted by Jan Heine
    Perhaps your bike advisory group should take the city to task for keeping the bike lanes clean?
    but, boy, is Jan confused about cycling participation and safety though! look at this doozy!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jan Heine
    It seems like we are trying to emulate Europe, without realizing that in many ways, we were ahead of them already.
    umm, How? ahead of them in injuries and cyclist deaths? ahead in obesity and lack of cycling?

    and he regales the blog with tales of his collisions while riding near traffic....

    Quote Originally Posted by Jan Heine
    the rider may have lost control on the narrow tires of his racing bike. It happened to me once, but I was lucky to crash into the back of a delivery van.........Certainly, for me, getting hit from behind has been the major cause for injuries – it’s happened twice.........
    Jan's waffling and prevaricating at his blog commentary shows him to be quite the proponent of context specific design including cycletracks!

    it's less a critique, more of a lament there aren't more of them in Seattle, and better designed too!
    Last edited by Bekologist; 05-19-13 at 11:28 PM.
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  5. #80
    Cycle Year Round CB HI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by B. Carfree View Post
    I agree. Given the reality of funding constraints, it would be far better to have a more-complete grid of well-done bike lanes than a small set of bike paths to nowhere. Unfortunately, that seems to be too nuanced for many "advocates" to get behind.
    I am OK with sharrows if placed in the middle of the lane, uphill 6 feet bike lanes (prefer shoulders) if kept clean, but most of all, I prefer money be spent on cut through bike paths (not MUPs).

    Almost all the other bicycle infrastructure is a waste of money that could be better spend teaching our kids cycling safety in our schools.
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  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    Jan's waffling and prevaricating at his blog commentary
    Prevarication? Really??? He is expressing an opinion on his own effing blog.


    shows him to be quite the proponent of context specific design including cycletracks!
    Meh^2.
    Heine was critical of a context-specific cycletrack in seattle.
    This is why motorists hate us, and why I've given up riding on the road...You should be ashamed yourself, and you should be reviled by cyclists everywhere.

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by CB HI View Post
    I am OK with sharrows if placed in the middle of the lane, uphill 6 feet bike lanes (prefer shoulders) if kept clean, but most of all, I prefer money be spent on cut through bike paths (not MUPs).

    Almost all the other bicycle infrastructure is a waste of money that could be better spend teaching our kids cycling safety in our schools.
    Hey CB, I am willing to bet that if you had access to facilities like these you would probably use them (especially during a rush hour jam):

    8191826706_138fa72bf3.jpg
    This is why motorists hate us, and why I've given up riding on the road...You should be ashamed yourself, and you should be reviled by cyclists everywhere.

  8. #83
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    in downtown san jose there is a portion of road that has a full lane converted into a bike lane on the right hand side, and the a protected bike lane on the left hand side

    you can sorta see both here


    the protected lane



    the protected lane is only for one (long) block and doesnt have any intersection issues, but i don't like riding in it cause it's got more debris and is rougher since it's right at the curb.

    I would love a barrier that prevented cars from double parking in the wide bike lane but other than that the wide bike lanes are pretty sweet. riding down that street before was a bit nerve wracking.. now it's enjoyable
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  9. #84
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    Prevarication? Really??? He is expressing an opinion on his own effing blog.




    Meh^2.
    Heine was critical of a context-specific cycletrack in seattle.
    yes, he flip-flops in his commentary to show, for Jan, well designed traffic separation is his first choice always, is supportive of other cycle tracks and proposed cycle tracks in Seattle, and traffic separation in general - I know, anathema to your belief.

    Jan Heine's commentary is quite a reversal to his posturing at the blog - Jan Heine waffles, and turns out to be a strong proponent of separation, cycletracks, and side paths.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jan Heine
    I am all for separate facilities where they can be implemented well. That always will be my first choice,.
    spare wheel, do you get it yet?

    Jan Heine, proud critic when he wrote his VC screed for his blog, actually explains himself in the comments that he's really a big fan of traffic separation and side paths.
    Last edited by Bekologist; 05-20-13 at 05:58 AM.
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  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    "paths"

    How vague can you get hagen? And can you please cite some actual data. I fully understand that you prefer copenhagen-style infrastruture. Well, I don't. I prefer German-style infrastructure.




    And this is exactly the kind of infrastructure that is being built in the USA.



    In the USA one of the common arguments for physically-separated infrastructure is that it is better associated with increased mode share than other infrastructure (or reforms). I have provided examples of a doubling in separated infrastructure in Holland with only a tiny increase in mode share. If its not obvious to you why I cite this and the unfortunate decline in cycling mode share in Denmark then you are clearly being intentionally obtuse.

    PS: I have always been a huge fan of woonerven and other forms of traffic calming/elimination. IMO, we already spend too much on separated infrastructure and too little on traffic calming and elimination in Portland. Eliminating car traffic entirely in large swathes of downtown Portland is the obvious thing to do.
    In light of what I wrote this is either stupid or disingenious.

    Mode share increased in Holland, but even more important to the Dutch (in light of the already high mode share): So did safety. And as you will remember, safety was the initial idea in having bike-specific infrastructure. But still: Mode share increased. And to the degree that by now, Amsterdam will have to find new ways of accomodating their cyclists, as there's hardly room for them anymore. You see, not only did mode share increase (moderately), but so did the total amount of bike trips, along with the general increase in traffic. Really: your degree of cherry-picking is amazing.

    Your claim that "this" (Berlin style bike paths) is exactly what is being build in the USA is false. In some places, no doubt it is correct (as documented by several examples in this thread), in other places not (as documented in other threads here on BF, with examples from, among other places, New York). So again: cherry picking; thus false. That said, the bike lanes made in Berlin look pretty good, and certainly will be more inviting to most cyclists than the bike paths" they had. But again, you should remember that the funds allocated to bike facilities vary hugely from region to region in Germany; as it does do a smaller degree in Denmark, and to a very, very small degree in Holland. Calling anything "German-style" in this context muddles the issue even further.

    "The unfortuate facts" of mode share in Denmark were explained to you in detail, (and elsewhere i cited the examples of Aarhus and Odense as premium examples of bike paths leading to increased modal share) and you'll have to try to understand it if we're to have any meaningfull discussion about this issue.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by B. Carfree View Post
    I agree. Given the reality of funding constraints, it would be far better to have a more-complete grid of well-done bike lanes than a small set of bike paths to nowhere.
    That is probably true. And a good starting point.

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    Heine was critical of a context-specific cycletrack in seattle.
    Interesting. Bek wrote "shows him to be quite the proponent of context specific design including cycletracks!"

    Where did that "design" go when you quoted, eh?

  13. #88
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hagen2456 View Post
    Interesting. Bek wrote "shows him to be quite the proponent of context specific design including cycletracks!"

    Where did that "design" go when you quoted, eh?

    yep, Jan's followup at his blog shows him to be a fan of well implemented traffic separation and cycle tracks, even if it means crossing commercial drives..... he thinks intersection conflicts can be 'managed' on a major cycle track route in Ballard, another Seattle neighborhood.

    I think Jan would support the cycle track he's critical of in his blog, if the intersection conflicts were reduced and more smartly managed. There honestly aren't that many along that stretch and most streets to the cycletrack side are short, dead end blocks. Jan doth protest to much to make a point he doesn't even agree with.
    Last edited by Bekologist; 05-20-13 at 06:32 AM.
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  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by hagen2456 View Post
    Mode share increased in Holland
    A two-fold increase in physically separated paths resulted in a few percent increase in mode share.

    And as you will remember, safety was the initial idea in having bike-specific infrastructure.
    How many times do I have to re-iterate that I am not against bike infrastructure, safety education, and traffic calming/elimination. My whole point is that these things have been given short shrift in Portland due to an obsession with expensive physically separated infrastructure.

    In some places, no doubt it is correct (as documented by several examples in this thread)
    You do realize that you are tacitly agreeing with my point of view.


    Calling anything "German-style" in this context muddles the issue even further.
    Having cycled in Munich, Seattle, and Portland I have direct experience with these facilities. Do you?
    Last edited by spare_wheel; 05-20-13 at 11:57 AM.
    This is why motorists hate us, and why I've given up riding on the road...You should be ashamed yourself, and you should be reviled by cyclists everywhere.

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by hagen2456 View Post
    And a good starting point.
    Talk about damning with faint praise.

    Munich cycling mode share
    1996: 6%
    2011: 17.4%
    This is why motorists hate us, and why I've given up riding on the road...You should be ashamed yourself, and you should be reviled by cyclists everywhere.

  16. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    I think Jan would support the cycle track he's critical of in his blog, if the intersection conflicts were reduced and more smartly managed.
    You think. Why don't you let Jan speak for himself.

    Quote Originally Posted by hagen2456 View Post
    Interesting. Bek wrote "shows him to be quite the proponent of context specific design including cycletracks!"
    Where did that "design" go when you quoted, eh?
    You do realize that you are quoting Bekologist, not Jan Heine. There is no way I am going to seriously address Bekologist's daydreams about what Jan Heine really thinks.
    This is why motorists hate us, and why I've given up riding on the road...You should be ashamed yourself, and you should be reviled by cyclists everywhere.

  17. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    A two-fold increase in physically separated paths resulted in a few percent increase in mode share.
    And increased safety.

    How many times do I have to re-iterate that I am not against bike infrastructure, safety education, and traffic calming/elimination. My whole point is that these things have been given short shrift in Portland due to an obsession with expensive physically separated infrastructure.
    We are probably not THAT far from each other, if we don't count the safety of well executed separated paths and their ability to increase biking. You are certainly right that there's no reason to have separated paths everywhere. Of course. We don't have that in Copenhagen, nor do the Dutch.

    You do realize that you are tacitly agreeing with my point of view.
    No. Check the logic of it again. I had hoped you'd get it the first time around.

    Having cycled in Munich, Seattle, and Portland I have direct experience with these facilities. Do you?
    No. Is it relevant? I KNOW that bike infrastructure varies wildly throughout Germany.

  18. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    You think. Why don't you let Jan speak for himself.



    You do realize that you are quoting Bekologist, not Jan Heine. There is no way I am going to seriously address Bekologist's daydreams about what Jan Heine really thinks.
    You misquoted. That's what I pointed out. And that misquote made a very large difference to the meaning. Thus, you created a straw man.

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    So again: cherry picking; thus false.
    Citing an example is not cherry picking. We are not dealing in the realm of large sample size stats here...at least in the USA. There is clearly dissatisfaction with the kind of separated infrastructure being built in PDX and Seattle. Is it so hard for you to believe that this dissatisfaction is real and not some nefarious plot to vehicularize cycling?

    I am going to quote my knee-jerk positive reaction to the Cully cycle track on BikePortland so that you can see that my negative reaction came from *experience* with the facilty not from bias:

    The cully cycle track, on the other hand, looks like a nice facility and I plan on riding it this evening.
    After a year of experience with Cully:

    On the original cycle track thread I was quite positive. Unfortunately, I have often seen motorists whip through the cycle track without any hesitation (both through traffic and right hook scenarios). If you read the original thread this is exactly what "are" predicted.
    I suspect that Hembrow would have a field day criticizing the Cully cycle track:

    http://bikeportland.org/wp-content/u...5/cully430.jpg



    You are certainly right that there's no reason to have separated paths everywhere. Of course. We don't have that in Copenhagen, nor do the Dutch.
    heine's piece, my comments here, and those of b_carfree suggest that there are distinct visions for the direction of bike infrastructure in USA. my attitude has been always to focus on connectivity and then focus on separation (for the omas). portland has a census mode share in the 20s in large swathes of its urban core and yet many of the most heavily used routes (with thousands of daily trips) have absolutely no infrastructure. not even a freaking sign or sharrow!

    http://bikeportland.org/2013/05/17/g...nce-1990-86948

    And that misquote made a very large difference to the meaning.
    i get your point but it is still futile to argue about what jan heine believes when he is not here to articulate his beliefs.
    This is why motorists hate us, and why I've given up riding on the road...You should be ashamed yourself, and you should be reviled by cyclists everywhere.

  20. #95
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    ................ There is clearly dissatisfaction with the kind of separated infrastructure being built in PDX and Seattle.



    i get your point but it is still futile to argue about what jan heine believes when he is not here to articulate his beliefs.
    thanks for pointing that out- again and again and again.

    However,

    It is futile -futile for you, to suggest Jan Heine ISN'T a fan of traffic separation and cycle tracks. He is. his folllowup at his blog post makes that very, very clear.


    in his followup commentary, Jan makes it very clear he is a resounding supporter of traffic separation and lauds well implemented existing cycle tracks in the Seattle, and supports others not yet built, on main routes next to arterial roadways.

    When a person makes a statement at his own blog that
    Quote Originally Posted by Jan Heine
    I am all for separate facilities where they can be implemented well. That always will be my first choice
    what does this mean, spare wheel? Are you willing to be so resolutely obtuse? I mentioned to Jan if he didn't like the cycletrack in North Seattle, he should simply ride the nearby arterial roads, Aurora Ave or Greenwood Ave N. Aurora is even considered a bikeway route, with 'bus, bike and right turn only lanes' that rides like a dream for strong cyclists like myself. And, i would have thought Jan Heine.

    But no!

    Jan Heine considered the nearby main route - with a shared lane bikeway - as unfit/unsafe for bike travel.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jan Heine
    You know as well as I do that neither Aurora nor Greenwood are suitable or safe for cycling.
    hmmm.

    When i call Jan out for prevaricating on his position, i'm not exaggerating.

    I'd go so far to call Jan Heine rather traffic adverse and a hypocrite, if he doesn't like Aurora ave or Greenwood adjacent to the cycletrack whose aspects of design he criticizes at his blog.


    Spare wheel, you simply must read Jan's endorsement of traffic separation at his blog. He mentions it repeatedly in his followup comments.

    -and spare the forum the unremitting hysterics about your ideal version of bicycle facilities.
    Last edited by Bekologist; 05-21-13 at 05:02 AM.
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    It is futile -futile for you, to suggest Jan Heine ISN'T a fan of traffic separation and cycle tracks.
    When i call Jan out for prevaricating on his position, i'm not exaggerating.
    I'd go so far to call Jan Heine rather traffic adverse and a hypocrite
    And bekologist once again shows that he can view cycling infrastructure only through a black and white "you are either for us or against us" filter.

    if he didn't like the cycletrack in North Seattle, he should simply ride the nearby arterial roads
    And once again...the black and white "you are either for us or against us" absolutism.

    If you don't like the cycle track then according to bekologist you should ride Aurora. You are apparently incapable of seeing any middle ground between a cycletrack and riding next to an abomination of a freeway.

    where they can be implemented well.
    Where? Commercial arterials like Broadway? Not according to Jan.

    I am also still waiting for you to mention a single commercial arterial where you would prefer a bike lane to a cycletrack. Context specific my arse.
    This is why motorists hate us, and why I've given up riding on the road...You should be ashamed yourself, and you should be reviled by cyclists everywhere.

  22. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    And bekologist once again shows that he can view cycling infrastructure only through a black and white "you are either for us or against us" filter.



    And once again...the black and white "you are either for us or against us" absolutism.
    dude. your histrionics are out of this world. what are you arguing against? 'for us or against us" what in the world>??????



    I am also still waiting for you to mention a single commercial arterial where you would prefer a bike lane to a cycletrack. Context specific my arse.
    Oh, I rather like Jan's suggestions of cycletracks along Shilshole in Ballard and down south of downtown.



    Take your phantom battles up with Jan, dude. HE supports cycletracks along arterial roads in Seattle, and he doesn't consider some of the rest of the arterials safe, even those with shared lane bikeways.

    spare-wheel, your screed is well out of proportion for what's being discussed.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    dude. your histrionics are out of this world. what are you arguing against? 'for us or against us" what in the world>??????

    and my reply is to quote you again:

    if he didn't like the cycletrack in North Seattle, he should simply ride the nearby arterial roads
    black or white. either pro separation or pro VC. no gray. no nuance. no compromise.
    This is why motorists hate us, and why I've given up riding on the road...You should be ashamed yourself, and you should be reviled by cyclists everywhere.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    and my reply is to quote you again:



    black or white. either pro separation or pro VC. no gray. no nuance. no compromise.
    you do this every page, you know, and it's very offensive. you know very well i promote bike planning with the entire range of bicycling infrastructure, and on every page you group me into your fantastical phantom 'copenhaginstas' that supposedly want bike sidewalks on every street. No one like that exists.

    Every page.

    I correct you, and you start screaming and yelling about false premises and absolutist strawmen that do not represent my- or anyones - advocacy position. The only person that seems not to get the idea that cycletracks, bikelanes, bike boulevards, neighborhood greenways, sharrows, and plain old streets all intermingle in a smartly designed city for bicyclists is YOU, spare wheel.

    YOU'RE the one that doesn't get it. It's sometimes called "context specific" street design.

    Some streets merit different treatments from others. not every street is going to become a cycletrack, not every street needs a bikelane.

    I know that.

    Quote Originally Posted by myself
    As well seasoned and experienced cyclists, we understand the value of well implemented, context specific bicycle infrastructure, including but not limited to bikelanes, riding in the traffic lane, and cycle tracks.
    you're tilting at windmills, and it's very offensive.
    Last edited by Bekologist; 05-21-13 at 06:12 PM.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    if he didn't like the cycletrack in North Seattle, he should simply ride the nearby arterial roads
    that statement does not come across as very context specific to me.

    and it's very offensive.
    i have a deal for you, bekologist: if you stop framing this debate with bogus absolutism, i will stop accusing you of being absolutist.
    This is why motorists hate us, and why I've given up riding on the road...You should be ashamed yourself, and you should be reviled by cyclists everywhere.

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