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-   -   Protected bike lane critique (fresh meat!!) (http://www.bikeforums.net/advocacy-safety/889875-protected-bike-lane-critique-fresh-meat.html)

Bekologist 05-21-13 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spare_wheel (Post 15651706)
that statement does not come across as very context specific to me.

you don't have any idea what 'context sensitive design' means, do you?


Quote:

i have a deal for you, bekologist: if you stop framing this debate with bogus absolutism, i will stop accusing you of being absolutist.
sez the man who sees phantom 'copenhagenistas' :rolleyes: in every bike master plan and suggestions of a variety of bikeway across cities, that would include and not be limited to bikelanes, cycle tracks, bike boulevards, and regular old streets.


Good grief. What a :trainwreck:

spare_wheel 05-22-13 08:52 AM

Quote:

context sensitive design'
Quote:

phantom 'copenhagenistas'
and i'm still waiting for you to provide a single example of a commercial road where you would prefer a bike lane to a north american bike sidewalk.

http://bikeportland.org/wp-content/u...5/cully430.jpg

kalliergo 05-22-13 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spare_wheel (Post 15653547)
and i'm still waiting for you to provide a single example of a commercial road where you would prefer a bike lane to a north american bike sidewalk.

http://bikeportland.org/wp-content/u...5/cully430.jpg

I'd be grateful if the folks who think that photo depicts acceptable bicycle infrastructure would just say so, unambiguously.

Bekologist 05-22-13 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spare_wheel (Post 15653547)
and i'm still waiting for you to provide a single example of a commercial road where you would prefer a bike lane to a north american bike sidewalk.

http://bikeportland.org/wp-content/u...5/cully430.jpg

I'm not sure why you keep grouping me into your fantasy club of 'copenhagenistas' who want bike sidewalks on every road in america.

I'm not a proponent of poorly designed bike facilities!!! Goodness gracious.

And as to the cycle tracks next to arterials ? I'll concur with Jan Heine's recommendations for cycletracks on part of the missing link in Ballard as well a south of downtown leading to the West Seattle bridge, where Jan has noted could manage the commercial driveways and intersections along them.

Honestly, spare wheel, you have to stop tilting at windmills and creating phantom copenhagenistas. A few of us have noticed the histrionics about 'copenhagenistas' is quite tedious, and lends nothing to the discussion.

spare_wheel 05-22-13 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bekologist (Post 15654331)
Honestly, spare wheel, you have to stop tilting at windmills and creating phantom copenhagenistas.

and you still refuse to provide a single example of a commercial road where you would prefer a bike lane to a physically-separated facility. why is this so hard to answer?

Bekologist 05-22-13 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spare_wheel (Post 15655294)
and you still refuse to provide a single example of a commercial road where you would prefer a bike lane to a physically-separated facility. why is this so hard to answer?

Is this some kind of trick question? Why should i give you examples, you don't even understand bikelanes provide separate, restricted by class space on roads for bike traffic.

In every major american city, every micropolis and small town, I'd endorse bike lanes along commercial roads where they're merited, as part of a robust network of bike facilities.

I unequivocally endorse bikelanes on arterial collector roads as part of a comprehensive and robust bike transportation planning package.


Your quixotic screed doesn't apply to me.

Maybe you can ask Jan heine why he DOESN'T endorse bikelanes along the commericial Shilshole in Seattle and endorses a cycletrack instead?

kalliergo 05-22-13 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bekologist (Post 15656246)
In every major american city, every micropolis and small town, I'd endorse bike lanes along commercial roads where they're merited. . .

1. Please define "commercial roads", with specificity necessary to determine dimensions, design, construction, maintenance, speed-limit setting, zoning if relevant, cross-street and driveway penetrations, etc.

2. Tell us where you think bike lanes are merited, on said commerical roads. How do you decide?

3. What design minimums and what best practices, specifically, meet the requirements for your stamp of approval? Be specific. If an established standard or standards is/are adequate, tell us which ones. Elaborate with personal preferences.

4. Tell us where "class separated" cycling facilities are not, in your view, necessary or desirable. Paint for us a picture of those places.

Quote:

I unequivocally endorse bikelanes on arterial collector roads
Which ones, what kinds? On all arterials and collectors (two diffeent things; I assume you meant both) or only some? Specs, standards, best practices and examples, please. Also, please show us examples of bike lanes on such arterials that you believe do not enhance cyclist safety or perceived safety, or that negatively impact either or both. I like diagrams and competently-annotated photos.

Quote:

Maybe you can ask Jan heine why he DOESN'T endorse bikelanes along the commericial Shilshole in Seattle and endorses a cycletrack instead?
I don't really know the details of the Shilsole design. I just know where it is and that it's one of the zillion court cases to try to keep track of. But if Heine endorses a cycletrack there, he probably explained pretty clearly why he does, and it's not that hard for anyone to ask him questions.

But, seriously (again), Bek, why would you throw an urban waterfront artery like this into the argument, as if it were just another road where you have to figure out how to make cyclists feel safe and drivers not be too annoyed, while preserving "normal" carmageddon priorities?

Streets like this are urban treasures. Cities that continue to use them as parts of the omnivorous autoslum are wasting the most valuable real estate they have.

It's ridiculous to talk about where to put the bike lanes, until we've talked about how much sense it makes to put 2-4-foot square (standing) humans into moving shells that take up 200 square feet each, and give those users priority in the densest parts of town.

vol 05-22-13 10:27 PM

This kind of protected bike path would be our safe haven (except I see motorcycles also use it). I wish we have them in the U.S..

Bekologist 05-23-13 02:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kalliergo (Post 15656424)
1. Please define "commercial roads" blah blah blah

I don't really know the details of the Shilsole design. I just know where it is and that it's one of the zillion court cases to try to keep track of. But if Heine endorses a cycletrack there, he probably explained pretty clearly why he does, and it's not that hard for anyone to ask him questions.

But, seriously (again), Bek, why would you throw an urban waterfront artery like this into the argument, as if it were just another road........

Excerpted. Your harangue to me over US design standards are misplaced. I've repeatedly mentioned site specific context sensitive design. I'd leave where to put things up to the locals.

AS to 'commercial roads', ask spare wheel, he's the one ranting and raving about them, its some designation he's made up.

Oh, and the waterfront cycletrack? I keep bringing it up BECAUSE JAN HEINE, THE PERSON IN THE ORIGINAL POST SUPPOSEDLY CRITICAL OF CYCLETRACKS, ACTUALLY ENDORSES SMARTLY PLACED CYCLE TRACKS, AND SUGGESTS AT HIS BLOG TO EXPAND AND IMPROVE THE CYCLE TRACK NETWORK ACROSS SEATTLE.


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