Protected bike lane critique (fresh meat!!)
05-19-13, 09:37 PM
#76
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Yea, I can see what you mean about Bek. Doesn't live here and thinks he knows everything about it while copping attitude. As far as my name - he seems to have a hard time telling the difference between "i" and "l" hence him also calling Aiea Alea.. maybe he has bad eyesight and that's why he couldn't understand how bad our bike lanes are even though you posted several examples.
Bek - get rid of "bike lanes" and install sharrows to re-enforce to drivers that bikes are allowed in the regular lane. I'll be much happier taking the lane instead of riding in our extremely poor "bike lanes" - bike lanes which I do NOT ride in during the bad parts (which is most of them). *hint* CBHI wasn't IN the bike lane when he was hit. The driver that hit him complained that he should have been. Go back and read that part again. Maybe even look at the pictures of the bike lanes again to see why we complain about them. They do nothing but make motorists think we shouldn't be in the regular lane.
edit: Since I doubt Bek will go back and look again I'll repost it (emphasis mine):
Last edited by robble; 05-19-13 at 09:44 PM.
05-19-13, 09:44 PM
#77
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I agree. Howoever, another important issue in North American is our very limited funding. We simply do not have the funds to build a connected network of Dutch-style separated infrastructure. And, imo, a poorly connected network of separated paths is worse than nothing. Given our limited funds, German-style bike lanes are the better option
05-19-13, 10:18 PM
#78
Cycle Year Round
Just a point of clarification on my part. The Photo shows a one foot wide shoulder and not an actual bike lane. The driver and wife just claimed it a bike lane since I would have been required to legally ride in a bike lane. This same type claim is made by many motorist in court cases (all 3 I have been involved in).
Thus, in support of B. Carfree post of motorist views of bike lanes. Once an area has bike lanes, motorist believe we must be in a bike lane, even if one does not exist.
PS - Even the motorist insurance adjuster told the judge that there was no bike lane on that road and it was legal for me to take the lane. The driver and his lawyer managed to even piss off their own witness.
Thus, in support of B. Carfree post of motorist views of bike lanes. Once an area has bike lanes, motorist believe we must be in a bike lane, even if one does not exist.
PS - Even the motorist insurance adjuster told the judge that there was no bike lane on that road and it was legal for me to take the lane. The driver and his lawyer managed to even piss off their own witness.
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Last edited by CB HI; 05-19-13 at 10:24 PM.
05-19-13, 10:20 PM
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some select quotes from Jan Heine, author of the ill-founded 'critique' of protected bike lane and cycletrack and path networks. Despite the seeming disapproval of cycle tracks in Seattle, Jan actually posts he thinks well protected cycle paths are 'always' his first choice for cyclists!
Jan goes on in his blog comments to actually endorse cycle tracks. just not the one his hyperfocused randonneur senses have detected needs some improvement.
Jan Heine is for a wide variety of bike facilities, including cycle tracks. Well implemented, separated bikeways are his 'first choice always'
Jan would tell the kids in Honolulu ....
but, boy, is Jan confused about cycling participation and safety though! look at this doozy!
umm, How? ahead of them in injuries and cyclist deaths? ahead in obesity and lack of cycling?
and he regales the blog with tales of his collisions while riding near traffic....
Jan's waffling and prevaricating at his blog commentary shows him to be quite the proponent of context specific design including cycletracks!
it's less a critique, more of a lament there aren't more of them in Seattle, and better designed too!
Jan goes on in his blog comments to actually endorse cycle tracks. just not the one his hyperfocused randonneur senses have detected needs some improvement.
Jan Heine is for a wide variety of bike facilities, including cycle tracks. Well implemented, separated bikeways are his 'first choice always'
Originally Posted by Jan Heine
Separate paths are useful and safe where there are no intersections .................I don’t disagree with the fact that many riders don’t feel safe when riding on the street..................I do agree with you that getting more people on bikes is crucial, and that having to cycle in the street is a big obstacle for many people................ Bike lanes in effect provide a place where cyclists can ride at a different speed from other traffic............I agree that in some places, separate facilities are great. If you can design a bike path that doesn’t have intersections at every block, it can be a huge asset. In Seattle, they even built two underpasses so the Burke-Gilman Trail can pass under two major roads without intersection..............I agree that design is crucial...............Having separate light cycles for cars and bicycles can help with safety................I agree that infrastructure can be good, but it needs to be applied with good judgment................You know as well as I do that neither Aurora nor Greenwood (nearby main routes) are suitable or safe for cycling...............I do understand that many riders aren’t comfortable doing this (share lane with traffic), so we should provide alternative routes.......Yes, taking the lane for the exclusive use of cyclists is a great solution, and one that I wholeheartedly approve of.......Yes, we agree on many things. I am all for separate facilities where they can be implemented well. That always will be my first choice,..................As I have stated multiple times, I am not opposed to “protected” bike facilities, if they are truly protected. ............The separate cycle track along Shilshole remains the best option. The industrial driveways mostly are disused, and the four or five big ones could be dealt with easily............... There is a painted bike lane. So you have separation of cars and trucks in one lane and cyclists in the other............
(talking about south Seattle) Of course, the lack of intersections also means that it be a great candidate for a separate facility that is totally off the roadway...............What I am advocating is the best approach for each situation............
(talking about south Seattle) Of course, the lack of intersections also means that it be a great candidate for a separate facility that is totally off the roadway...............What I am advocating is the best approach for each situation............
Jan would tell the kids in Honolulu ....
Originally Posted by Jan Heine
Perhaps your bike advisory group should take the city to task for keeping the bike lanes clean?
Originally Posted by Jan Heine
It seems like we are trying to emulate Europe, without realizing that in many ways, we were ahead of them already.
and he regales the blog with tales of his collisions while riding near traffic....
Originally Posted by Jan Heine
the rider may have lost control on the narrow tires of his racing bike. It happened to me once, but I was lucky to crash into the back of a delivery van.........Certainly, for me, getting hit from behind has been the major cause for injuries – it’s happened twice.........
it's less a critique, more of a lament there aren't more of them in Seattle, and better designed too!
Last edited by Bekologist; 05-19-13 at 10:28 PM.
05-19-13, 10:30 PM
#80
Cycle Year Round
Almost all the other bicycle infrastructure is a waste of money that could be better spend teaching our kids cycling safety in our schools.
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05-20-13, 12:04 AM
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Prevarication? Really??? He is expressing an opinion on his own effing blog.
Meh^2.
Heine was critical of a context-specific cycletrack in seattle.
shows him to be quite the proponent of context specific design including cycletracks!
Heine was critical of a context-specific cycletrack in seattle.
05-20-13, 12:12 AM
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I am OK with sharrows if placed in the middle of the lane, uphill 6 feet bike lanes (prefer shoulders) if kept clean, but most of all, I prefer money be spent on cut through bike paths (not MUPs).
Almost all the other bicycle infrastructure is a waste of money that could be better spend teaching our kids cycling safety in our schools.
Almost all the other bicycle infrastructure is a waste of money that could be better spend teaching our kids cycling safety in our schools.
05-20-13, 02:37 AM
#83
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in downtown san jose there is a portion of road that has a full lane converted into a bike lane on the right hand side, and the a protected bike lane on the left hand side
you can sorta see both here
the protected lane
the protected lane is only for one (long) block and doesnt have any intersection issues, but i don't like riding in it cause it's got more debris and is rougher since it's right at the curb.
I would love a barrier that prevented cars from double parking in the wide bike lane but other than that the wide bike lanes are pretty sweet. riding down that street before was a bit nerve wracking.. now it's enjoyable
you can sorta see both here
the protected lane
the protected lane is only for one (long) block and doesnt have any intersection issues, but i don't like riding in it cause it's got more debris and is rougher since it's right at the curb.
I would love a barrier that prevented cars from double parking in the wide bike lane but other than that the wide bike lanes are pretty sweet. riding down that street before was a bit nerve wracking.. now it's enjoyable
05-20-13, 04:26 AM
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Jan Heine's commentary is quite a reversal to his posturing at the blog - Jan Heine waffles, and turns out to be a strong proponent of separation, cycletracks, and side paths.
Originally Posted by Jan Heine
I am all for separate facilities where they can be implemented well. That always will be my first choice,.
Jan Heine, proud critic when he wrote his VC screed for his blog, actually explains himself in the comments that he's really a big fan of traffic separation and side paths.
Last edited by Bekologist; 05-20-13 at 04:58 AM.
05-20-13, 04:38 AM
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"paths"
How vague can you get hagen? And can you please cite some actual data. I fully understand that you prefer copenhagen-style infrastruture. Well, I don't. I prefer German-style infrastructure.
And this is exactly the kind of infrastructure that is being built in the USA.
In the USA one of the common arguments for physically-separated infrastructure is that it is better associated with increased mode share than other infrastructure (or reforms). I have provided examples of a doubling in separated infrastructure in Holland with only a tiny increase in mode share. If its not obvious to you why I cite this and the unfortunate decline in cycling mode share in Denmark then you are clearly being intentionally obtuse.
PS: I have always been a huge fan of woonerven and other forms of traffic calming/elimination. IMO, we already spend too much on separated infrastructure and too little on traffic calming and elimination in Portland. Eliminating car traffic entirely in large swathes of downtown Portland is the obvious thing to do.
How vague can you get hagen? And can you please cite some actual data. I fully understand that you prefer copenhagen-style infrastruture. Well, I don't. I prefer German-style infrastructure.
And this is exactly the kind of infrastructure that is being built in the USA.
In the USA one of the common arguments for physically-separated infrastructure is that it is better associated with increased mode share than other infrastructure (or reforms). I have provided examples of a doubling in separated infrastructure in Holland with only a tiny increase in mode share. If its not obvious to you why I cite this and the unfortunate decline in cycling mode share in Denmark then you are clearly being intentionally obtuse.
PS: I have always been a huge fan of woonerven and other forms of traffic calming/elimination. IMO, we already spend too much on separated infrastructure and too little on traffic calming and elimination in Portland. Eliminating car traffic entirely in large swathes of downtown Portland is the obvious thing to do.
Mode share increased in Holland, but even more important to the Dutch (in light of the already high mode share): So did safety. And as you will remember, safety was the initial idea in having bike-specific infrastructure. But still: Mode share increased. And to the degree that by now, Amsterdam will have to find new ways of accomodating their cyclists, as there's hardly room for them anymore. You see, not only did mode share increase (moderately), but so did the total amount of bike trips, along with the general increase in traffic. Really: your degree of cherry-picking is amazing.
Your claim that "this" (Berlin style bike paths) is exactly what is being build in the USA is false. In some places, no doubt it is correct (as documented by several examples in this thread), in other places not (as documented in other threads here on BF, with examples from, among other places, New York). So again: cherry picking; thus false. That said, the bike lanes made in Berlin look pretty good, and certainly will be more inviting to most cyclists than the bike paths" they had. But again, you should remember that the funds allocated to bike facilities vary hugely from region to region in Germany; as it does do a smaller degree in Denmark, and to a very, very small degree in Holland. Calling anything "German-style" in this context muddles the issue even further.
"The unfortuate facts" of mode share in Denmark were explained to you in detail, (and elsewhere i cited the examples of Aarhus and Odense as premium examples of bike paths leading to increased modal share) and you'll have to try to understand it if we're to have any meaningfull discussion about this issue.
05-20-13, 04:41 AM
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05-20-13, 04:52 AM
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05-20-13, 05:10 AM
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yep, Jan's followup at his blog shows him to be a fan of well implemented traffic separation and cycle tracks, even if it means crossing commercial drives..... he thinks intersection conflicts can be 'managed' on a major cycle track route in Ballard, another Seattle neighborhood.
I think Jan would support the cycle track he's critical of in his blog, if the intersection conflicts were reduced and more smartly managed. There honestly aren't that many along that stretch and most streets to the cycletrack side are short, dead end blocks. Jan doth protest to much to make a point he doesn't even agree with.
Last edited by Bekologist; 05-20-13 at 05:32 AM.
05-20-13, 10:43 AM
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A two-fold increase in physically separated paths resulted in a few percent increase in mode share.
How many times do I have to re-iterate that I am not against bike infrastructure, safety education, and traffic calming/elimination. My whole point is that these things have been given short shrift in Portland due to an obsession with expensive physically separated infrastructure.
You do realize that you are tacitly agreeing with my point of view.
Having cycled in Munich, Seattle, and Portland I have direct experience with these facilities. Do you?
And as you will remember, safety was the initial idea in having bike-specific infrastructure.
In some places, no doubt it is correct (as documented by several examples in this thread)
Calling anything "German-style" in this context muddles the issue even further.
Last edited by spare_wheel; 05-20-13 at 10:57 AM.
05-20-13, 10:56 AM
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You do realize that you are quoting Bekologist, not Jan Heine. There is no way I am going to seriously address Bekologist's daydreams about what Jan Heine really thinks.
05-20-13, 12:43 PM
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How many times do I have to re-iterate that I am not against bike infrastructure, safety education, and traffic calming/elimination. My whole point is that these things have been given short shrift in Portland due to an obsession with expensive physically separated infrastructure.
You do realize that you are tacitly agreeing with my point of view.
Having cycled in Munich, Seattle, and Portland I have direct experience with these facilities. Do you?
05-20-13, 12:44 PM
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You misquoted. That's what I pointed out. And that misquote made a very large difference to the meaning. Thus, you created a straw man.
05-20-13, 02:24 PM
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So again: cherry picking; thus false.
I am going to quote my knee-jerk positive reaction to the Cully cycle track on BikePortland so that you can see that my negative reaction came from *experience* with the facilty not from bias:
The cully cycle track, on the other hand, looks like a nice facility and I plan on riding it this evening.
On the original cycle track thread I was quite positive. Unfortunately, I have often seen motorists whip through the cycle track without any hesitation (both through traffic and right hook scenarios). If you read the original thread this is exactly what "are" predicted.
https://bikeportland.org/wp-content/u...5/cully430.jpg
You are certainly right that there's no reason to have separated paths everywhere. Of course. We don't have that in Copenhagen, nor do the Dutch.
https://bikeportland.org/2013/05/17/g...nce-1990-86948
And that misquote made a very large difference to the meaning.
05-21-13, 03:45 AM
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However,
It is futile -futile for you, to suggest Jan Heine ISN'T a fan of traffic separation and cycle tracks. He is. his folllowup at his blog post makes that very, very clear.
in his followup commentary, Jan makes it very clear he is a resounding supporter of traffic separation and lauds well implemented existing cycle tracks in the Seattle, and supports others not yet built, on main routes next to arterial roadways.
When a person makes a statement at his own blog that
Originally Posted by Jan Heine
I am all for separate facilities where they can be implemented well. That always will be my first choice
But no!
Jan Heine considered the nearby main route - with a shared lane bikeway - as unfit/unsafe for bike travel.
Originally Posted by Jan Heine
You know as well as I do that neither Aurora nor Greenwood are suitable or safe for cycling.
When i call Jan out for prevaricating on his position, i'm not exaggerating.
I'd go so far to call Jan Heine rather traffic adverse and a hypocrite, if he doesn't like Aurora ave or Greenwood adjacent to the cycletrack whose aspects of design he criticizes at his blog.
Spare wheel, you simply must read Jan's endorsement of traffic separation at his blog. He mentions it repeatedly in his followup comments.
-and spare the forum the unremitting hysterics about your ideal version of bicycle facilities.
Last edited by Bekologist; 05-21-13 at 04:02 AM.
05-21-13, 08:48 AM
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It is futile -futile for you, to suggest Jan Heine ISN'T a fan of traffic separation and cycle tracks.
When i call Jan out for prevaricating on his position, i'm not exaggerating.
I'd go so far to call Jan Heine rather traffic adverse and a hypocrite
if he didn't like the cycletrack in North Seattle, he should simply ride the nearby arterial roads
If you don't like the cycle track then according to bekologist you should ride Aurora. You are apparently incapable of seeing any middle ground between a cycletrack and riding next to an abomination of a freeway.
where they can be implemented well.
I am also still waiting for you to mention a single commercial arterial where you would prefer a bike lane to a cycletrack. Context specific my arse.
05-21-13, 08:53 AM
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I am also still waiting for you to mention a single commercial arterial where you would prefer a bike lane to a cycletrack. Context specific my arse.
Take your phantom battles up with Jan, dude. HE supports cycletracks along arterial roads in Seattle, and he doesn't consider some of the rest of the arterials safe, even those with shared lane bikeways.
spare-wheel, your screed is well out of proportion for what's being discussed.
05-21-13, 02:31 PM
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and my reply is to quote you again:
if he didn't like the cycletrack in North Seattle, he should simply ride the nearby arterial roads
05-21-13, 04:25 PM
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Every page.
I correct you, and you start screaming and yelling about false premises and absolutist strawmen that do not represent my- or anyones - advocacy position. The only person that seems not to get the idea that cycletracks, bikelanes, bike boulevards, neighborhood greenways, sharrows, and plain old streets all intermingle in a smartly designed city for bicyclists is YOU, spare wheel.
YOU'RE the one that doesn't get it. It's sometimes called "context specific" street design.
Some streets merit different treatments from others. not every street is going to become a cycletrack, not every street needs a bikelane.
I know that.
Originally Posted by myself
As well seasoned and experienced cyclists, we understand the value of well implemented, context specific bicycle infrastructure, including but not limited to bikelanes, riding in the traffic lane, and cycle tracks.
Last edited by Bekologist; 05-21-13 at 05:12 PM.
05-21-13, 06:47 PM
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and it's very offensive.