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  1. #26
    ♋ ☮♂ ☭ ☯ -=(8)=-'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by frantik View Post
    LOL.. hale bop.. the 90s called and wants its comet back. But bro. Go read this thread again. I post the article with "be safe out there". You immediate blame the victim. Then you spend the next bunch of posts trying to justify why you blamed the victim. Statically, I expect you to continue to blame the victim. You'll also probably make jabs at me. Statically, I don't expect you to have anything negative to say about the person who ran over a cyclist who did nothing to him.

    Im not blaming the victim. Im saying poor choices were made in the moment. Critical thinking skills are as important as riding skills in some areas.
    BTW, I commuted/carried through Riviera Beach in FL for two years. FL's version of Oakland. If you gave hand signals to turn, you risked getting thumped. Really, ask me how I know . . . Sometimes you have to swallow your pride and just ride on. The close pass/and driver waiting at a green light would have been enough for me to turn off right then. Do you think that if those guys just turned off instead engaging someone who made it clear he was looking for a confrontation, the outcome would have been the same?

  2. #27
    Transportation Cyclist turbo1889's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by -=(8)=- View Post
    Im not blaming the victim. . . Do you think that if those guys just turned off instead engaging someone who made it clear he was looking for a confrontation, the outcome would have been the same?
    I'd like to point out the fact that at least according to what the OP posted only one of the bicyclist riders decided to "engage" and broke the guys window with a U-lock. The driver then took it out on another on of those guys who was following behind and apparently had not even yet passed the vehicle.

    Yet you refer to the "engage" as a group activity commited by "those guys". Apparently you also blame all the cyclists for the actions of one of them.

    Can we put you down as viewing the gal who got dragged as being a "legitimate target" because someone else smashed his window just as apparently the drive though just because she was a bicyclists as well ???

    I would like a YES or NO answer to that question please.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by frantik View Post
    this was a random act of a psychopath. It could happen at any time in any city.. the fact it was oakland or at 1am doesn't mean anything.

    I do agree that I would recommend getting the fark outta there vs smashing a window, but the victim wasn't even the person who did that..
    First of all, while the initial contact was random, what followed wasn't. By then the cyclists knew they were dealing with a crazy person, and could have broken it off safely, with nothing worse than riffled feathers. Unfortunately one of they're group couldn't leave bad enough alone, and inflamed the situation by breaking a window. God knows what he was thinking, but, as so often happens in these situations, it's a third person that pays the price.

    I'm not defending the driver, who deserves all that he gets and more, but I am saying that discretion is the better part of valor, and right or wrong, regardless of the time, if you find yourself confronted by a crazy person, consider the stakes and think about how it could play out before escalating the situation.
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  4. #29
    Transportation Cyclist turbo1889's Avatar
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    Let me make it even more clear. You DID NOT say "that guy" you said "those guys" when only one of them chose to attack with the U-lock.

    Are you blaming them all for the actions of one of them ??? Please answer YES or NO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by -=(8)=- View Post
    Im saying poor choices were made in the moment.
    And I'm saying that by only pointing out the poor choices of the victim and not the attacker, you're blaming the victim. You're even trying to blame the victim for things they didn't even do.

    I'm also saying you've never been to Oakland so you don't even know if it was or was not a wise choice. Yes oakland has a lot of violent crime but it's not like you can't expect to be able to ride through downtown at 1am.

    There are psychopaths on the road everywhere... it doesn't matter if it's 1am in Oakland or 1pm in Louisville. I definitely think the friend smashing the window didn't help anything, but it still takes a psychopath to respond by running someone over.
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  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by turbo1889 View Post
    I'd like to point out the fact that at least according to what the OP posted only one of the bicyclist riders decided to "engage" and broke the guys window with a U-lock. The driver then took it out on another on of those guys who was following behind and apparently had not even yet passed the vehicle.

    This insanity lasted for a few blocks. Plenty of opportunity to move on . . .

    Yet you refer to the "engage" as a group activity commited by "those guys". Apparently you also blame all the cyclists for the actions of one of them.

    Can you point that out in any of my posts?


    Can we put you down as viewing the gal who got dragged as being a "legitimate target" because someone else smashed his window just as apparently the drive though just because she was a bicyclists as well ???

    Yep Reality sucks.
    When two irrational people decide to visit their irrationalities on other people, bad stuff happens

    I would like a YES or NO answer to that question please.

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  7. #32
    Transportation Cyclist turbo1889's Avatar
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    As to the better part of valor - Yes, I agree. More then once I have had a vehicle stop at a green light with their right hand turn signal on while I was riding on the shoulder edge far behind them waiting in ambush for me to hold my line and speed and pass them on the right on the shoulder edge at which point they clearly intended to deliberately turn into me. Looking at me in their right mirror with a smirk on their face that told me exactly what they were up to. I slow down and stop just behind them waiting for them to turn, I don't pass them on the right or the left and I don't try to smash up their rig with a U-lock. Once I had one try to back up into me frustrated that I hadn't fallen for the little trap he had tried to set up for me. Another driver realized what he was up to and pulled in right behind him blocking him and gave him a long horn blast and then stuck his head out the window and screamed that he had his license number and he was about to call the cops and the guy took off like a bat out of h#ll (going straight and not even making his right turn).

    Long story short, yes, be smart don't fall for traps. Realize that there are haters who will knowingly, willfully, and with pre-mediation commit hate crimes using their vehicle as a weapon against cyclists. But don't blame innocent victims, not entirely innocent victims (as in they actually do something to piss off a driver like run a red in front of them on a cross street when they have the green forcing them to instinctually slam on their brakes and the cyclist smerks and gives them the finger for thanks, or the cyclist chooses to escalate) - yes a minority of the blame does go on the victim.

    But when the p*ssed off hater attacks a different innocent cyclist just because the last one did something to p*ss him off legitimate or not. That is zero percent the fault of the victim. As I understand the story as posted by the OP that is what happened in this case.

  8. #33
    Senior Member howsteepisit's Avatar
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    Turbo you make a point. I had assumed that the cyclists were a group riding together, and that's not even clear. I think that in gang think dominated areas, that retaliation against members of opposing gangs is common, thus in it would be a social norm for the driver to attack a rival group member for retaliation if the original offender was not accessible, and if the driver behavior was influenced by social norms that are present in gang dominated areas. Therefore, my conclusion is that retaliation may take either the form of individual or retaliation against a group, especially in the instance of racial, or social groupings. So be careful who you ride with, you may be held to account for their actions, especially on the street. That said, I in know way do I feel that the actions of the driver was acceptable or justifiable, but I am quite pragmatic about street violence, and personally seek to avoid confrontational situations with unknown people, especially at 1:00 AM. And I will be the first to admit, this is all conjecture on my part.
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  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
    First of all, while the initial contact was random, what followed wasn't. By then the cyclists knew they were dealing with a crazy person, and could have broken it off safely, with nothing worse than riffled feathers. Unfortunately one of they're group couldn't leave bad enough alone, and inflamed the situation by breaking a window. God knows what he was thinking, but, as so often happens in these situations, it's a third person that pays the price.

    I'm not defending the driver, who deserves all that he gets and more, but I am saying that discretion is the better part of valor, and right or wrong, regardless of the time, if you find yourself confronted by a crazy person, consider the stakes and think about how it could play out before escalating the situation.
    When you're confronted with a crazy people on the road, you don't always have the time to consider the stakes and how it will play out. I wasn't there, but I imagine that once the milkshake was thrown, you had 4 pissed off riders on bikes and one psychopath in a car. In hindsight, no doubt the breaking of the window makes it seem like that could have escalated things, but it's not like they started it. The guy was getting out of his car when his window was smashed.. I don't think it would be much of an argument to call it self defense. If the rider had used the ulock and they got away, he'd be a hero. But instead he used the ulock, and then the psychopath ran over someone else. Maybe the psychopath wouldn't have done it otherwise. But the psychopath still DID do it.
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  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by frantik View Post
    ....you're blaming the victim.

    I'm also saying you've never been to Oakland so you don't even know if it was or was not a wise choice. Yes oakland has a lot of violent crime but it's not like you can't expect to be able to ride through downtown at 1am.

    There are psychopaths on the road everywhere... it doesn't matter if it's 1am in Oakland or 1pm in Louisville. I definitely think the friend smashing the window didn't help anything, but it still takes a psychopath to respond by running someone over.
    I know that these days it's unfashionable to "blame the victim", but sometimes victims' actions are contributory to the result. No blame affixes to the time and place, though as someone who grew up in a big city, I'm aware that there's the issue of being streetwise or not. When I lived in NYC, I rode through the worst neighborhoods, but had the sense to avoid these late at night. It wasn't a matter of rights, just common sense.

    I don't know the Oakland neighborhood this happened in, but at some point the riders had to know they were dealing with a nut. At that point it was up to them to weight the circumstances and possible consequences and make a smart decision. For all we know the actual victim wasn't a party to the escalation process, just handy, so blaming her may not make any sense at all.

    But if you're going to survive in a big city, and choose to ride after the witching hour, you need to develop some street sense, and recognize danger before it kills you. Blameworthy or not, you have some degree of control over whether you become a victim.
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  11. #36
    Transportation Cyclist turbo1889's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by -=(8)=- View Post
    Can you point that out in any of my posts?
    Yes, your post #26 in this thread, the top of this page. I quote it in full below, the only changes is where I put part of it in bold:

    Quote Originally Posted by -=(8)=- View Post
    Im not blaming the victim. Im saying poor choices were made in the moment. Critical thinking skills are as important as riding skills in some areas.
    BTW, I commuted/carried through Riviera Beach in FL for two years. FL's version of Oakland. If you gave hand signals to turn, you risked getting thumped. Really, ask me how I know . . . Sometimes you have to swallow your pride and just ride on. The close pass/and driver waiting at a green light would have been enough for me to turn off right then. Do you think that if those guys just turned off instead engaging someone who made it clear he was looking for a confrontation, the outcome would have been the same?
    You did NOT say "that guy" (guy with U-lock) you said "those guys". That is clearly the plural form and referring to the whole group of cyclists not the single person who chose to engage with a U-lock.

    How is this not blaming the cyclists in general for the actions of one of them ???

    I agree that passing in that case was not wise, it is not however "engaging" if every time someone on the road passed someone else it was considered to be an act of "engaging" then people would be snapping and killing each other right and left by the hundreds of thousands on a daily basis on the roads of America. Not to mention that we don't even know if the gal in question even ever passed until the driver grabbed her. Apparently she was far enough behind that the guy was able to have an "engagement" with the U-lock guy, get out of his rig, and then get back in his rig before she caught up to him where she became a target of opportunity indicating she was fairly far behind the U-lock guy and may not have even passed the driver previously. May have, may not have, we don't know.
    Last edited by turbo1889; 05-18-13 at 04:58 PM.

  12. #37
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    ^^Pleeze . . . I cant do petty semantics

    This is not to show my e-nis about riding or stuff like that, but I have zillions of miles in many different states from Indiana over. Im a car-free commuter. When I first started commuting all the stuff we read about in these forums everyday happened to me and I would get angry, yell, flip people off and confront drivers. As miles and passive resignation set in, and I lived by "so what, thats just the way it is", all those episodes just magically stopped happening. Now, I pretty much only see casual riders and roadies complaining about car vs bike hostilities, because their riding is such that they havent come to that realization yet, and still get tweaked by stuff or set themselves up for these confrontations by allowing themselves to become irrational at other people. Im glad I had my epiphany before South Floridistan or I would have been on the receiving end of this type of violence regularly. Fortunately, my mantra of just let it go and pedal on has allowed me years of violence and anger-free riding in all situations

    This is my personal experience, yours will differ
    Last edited by -=(8)=-; 05-18-13 at 05:01 PM.

  13. #38
    Senior Member howsteepisit's Avatar
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    You got grabbed and dragged by an nutcase everyday? I would have given up cycling. Course I only have ridden tens of thousands of miles not zillions.
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  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by howsteepisit View Post
    You got grabbed and dragged by an nutcase everyday? I would have given up cycling. Course I only have ridden tens of thousands of miles not zillions.
    I was just thinking out loud, compared to posts like this, I would have rather been dragged by a nutcase rather than reading posts from them.
    Keep riding, you get to a zillion in no time. FYI----- dont U-lock pick-ups in Oakland, k?

  15. #40
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    As I said already, I agree that escalation is not wise and that you should only respond on your end if other more prudent options are unavailable and if you must you should focus on neutralizing the thread not just retaliating for the sake of retaliation.

    As I already stated, I've had cyclist hating drivers knowingly, willfully, and with pre-mediation commit hate crimes using their vehicle as a weapon against me personally. As I have learned and my knowledge has become better I have become better and better at spotting things like that before they happen and not falling into the traps they try to set-up for me. Sometimes I still get surprised by a new one I haven't seen before but the ones I know I figure out ways to avoid. Seriously if you really want to get back at them frustrating their plans and not falling for their traps is one of the things you can do to them that messes with them the very most.

    And, yes, there are certainly people I will not ride with or around because I don't want them to reflect directly on me anymore then it already does in the haters minds who group all cyclists together as one. Bad enough that such be so, not make it any worse by riding right next to them.

    That doesn't excuse mass hate crimes though. You don't get to go shoot a black guy or two at random just because some other black guy raped your daughter and you can't get your hands on him specifically (not saying anything against blacks, whites, reds, yellows, and every other color do that too). Same thing goes for bicyclists, you can't run one of them over at random just because another one of them ran a stop sign across your path yesterday and you had to slam on the brakes and the car behind you rear-ended you and the cyclist got away scott free. And, yes, it goes the other way too as well, you don't get to go slash the tires on a bunch of cager's cages just because one of them right hook you wrecking your bike and then screamed at you that you shouldn't have been on the road and in his way in the first place before driving off and you didn't get his license plate number.

    Now if you do find the specific person that committed the offense against you and attack them, well I probably won't agree with what you did, but at least I can understand it.
    Last edited by turbo1889; 05-18-13 at 05:17 PM.

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    Senior Member howsteepisit's Avatar
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    Ahh, just messing with ya. You and I are on the same page about fitting in and avoiding unwinnable conflict with motor vehicles. Smashing a window out of a truck at 1 AM is foolish, to be kind. There is a time to stand on your rights and a time to let life just move on.
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    Quote Originally Posted by howsteepisit View Post
    Ahh, just messing with ya. You and I are on the same page about fitting in and avoiding unwinnable conflict with motor vehicles. Smashing a window out of a truck at 1 AM is foolish, to be kind. There is a time to stand on your rights and a time to let life just move on.
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    Not in the zoo called A&S Bike forums. But at least its an exercise in thinking about different aspects of a story.

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    Wow, this story is brutal. Hope they DO catch that psycho.

    Maybe it's me, but yeah -- this didn't sound like a commute home after a late shift, this was a small group/training ride. Don't think I'd be doing that at 1AM in Oakland (I wouldn't even MOVE there!), and when the milkshake came flying, there would have been a "decision moment" -- stop or detour away from the psychopath, or keep going (as they did), preparing for the shat to hit the fan as a result.

    A couple other folks alluded to it -- the U-lock shot should have been on the ATTACKER, not the window. When somebody comes out of the vehicle in those circumstances, it's time to go to war.

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    Reading the link, they did catch the guy, he has a 30 year history of felony convictions, 6 if I recall. Problem is, that if one avoids the conflict, then nothing happens to the guy. If one reports the thrown milk shake to the Oakland police, its doubtful that anything serious happens to the driver. If on the other hand, one continues and becomes embroiled in a felony assault case, then there a better than reasonable chance that the driver in this case goes to prison for an extended time. But who wants to be the victim that allows the assault to become felonious? Not me
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  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by -=(8)=- View Post
    ^^Pleeze . . . I cant do petty semantics
    Yeah, well, that's a problem. "Semantics" means "meaning". If you engage in conversation using language, and insist on ignoring, or playing fast and loose with, the meaning of your language or that of your interlocutors, confusion or worse is likely to be the outcome.

    Semantics is not "pettty" -- it's at the core of spoken and written communication.

    I'm pretty sure that you should only have to review English 101 to verify that.
    Last edited by kalliergo; 05-18-13 at 06:30 PM. Reason: Used word with wrong meaning. Typo/semantics problem.
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    I agree that it was not the victim's (Ms. Reyes) fault. It was her riding buddy who broke the window with the U-lock. I hope he feels better now. A driver's broken window compared to his friend's broken leg. Yeah, he really showed that scumbag driver who's boss.

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by kenji666 View Post
    I agree that it was not the victim's (Ms. Reyes) fault. It was her riding buddy who broke the window with the U-lock. I hope he feels better now. A driver's broken window compared to his friend's broken leg. Yeah, he really showed that scumbag driver who's boss.
    So, let's see: the cyclist who broke the window had been buzzed, had a cup of cold glop thrown at him, and the driver of the truck stopped and exited the vehicle in order to confront him. And you believe that it was that cyclist's fault, because he then broke a window, that the young woman was grabbed, dragged and run over by the driver?

    That's just not very good reasoning, and it definitely reveals a blame-the-victim POV.

    Smashing the window was a bad move. If practicable, the cyclist(s) should have ridden away from the scene. Indeed, passing the assaultive cager after the close pass wasn't the brightest idea in the world. But neither of those things are so inappropriate as to change the sensible assignment of responsibility. The overwhelming burden of that falls on the driver, clearly.

    Also, I agree with other posters: if riding away safely was not practicable, the U-lock should have been used on the driver's head, as hard and as many times as required to be confident that he wouldn't pose further immediate danger.
    "What if we fail to stop the erosion of cities by automobiles?. . . In that case, we Americans will hardly need to ponder a mystery that has troubled men for millennia: What is the purpose of life? For us, the answer will be clear, established and for all practical purposes indisputable: The purpose of life is to produce and consume automobiles."

    ~Jane Jacobs, The Death and Life of Great American Cities

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    Senior Member 009jim's Avatar
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    Someone mentioned neutralizing the threat. I think that makes good sense. From what I've seen, the vast majority of cyclists who act very aggressive and blow off a lot of steam are like puffer fish. You probably need to either run away or fight. Not antagonize and hang around! For example I reckon the group should've stopped when the driver got out, surrounded him neutralized and tied him to his truck by the nads. :-)

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    Assuming the three strikes law is effectively utilized against this dirtbag, at least there will be one less violent hater driving his compensation vehicle on the roads as a result of this tragedy. I hope the dragger has some wealth to transfer to the draggee.

    By the way, as a (L)East Bay native, I always thought the crime capital of the state was just north of Oakland, across the county line in Richmond. That's why I always rode my bike in Oakland, where the Black Panthers kept the peace, rather than venture into dangerous neighborhoods.

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