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  1. #51
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    Just because a violent criminal attacks an innocent bystander in Oakland CA does not mean that cyclists should live in fear of motorists. Its absurd to let this single act of irrational violence affect your behavior as a cyclist.
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  2. #52
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    I am not sure if the smashing window episode is that significant. The driver was asking for trouble and repeatedly confronted the cyclist unsolicited, before the dude used u-lock on his window. He could have just tried something more serious all by himself.

  3. #53
    24-Speed Machine Chris516's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    Just because a violent criminal attacks an innocent bystander in Oakland CA does not mean that cyclists should live in fear of motorists. Its absurd to let this single act of irrational violence affect your behavior as a cyclist.
    +10,000,000!!!!!

    Is that motorist unique in his response, probably. There are probably many motorists' that hate cyclists' just much, but don't go that far. (former)Dr. Christopher Thompson definitely did have the same kind of reaction.

    Regardless of the two of them, or any other motorist like them, they should not be the determining factor in riding, or not riding.

    While it is definitely not an equal struggle(but definitely an equal comparison), is that of the civil rights struggle of African-Americans in the U.S.

    Just as they have achieved more n' more racial equality(more still needs to be achieved), cyclists' are achieving(and need to continue to achieve) transportation equality. Just as African-Americans' deal with a race war that still exists in some places, and/or in some individuals. Cyclists' need to achieve equality in the 'transportation war'.

    Why am I calling it a war, because of the ambivalent ignorance, of authorities, not of the general public. Because law enforcement doesn't take cyclists' safety seriously. Except when a cyclist gets taken away from a scene in a:

    1. Ambulance
    2. Hearse
    3. Police car

    If they depart the scene in any other fashion, even eyewitness evidence means nothing to the authorities.

    Just like the U.S. race wars. Where something bad happening to Caucasians would be addressed. But if the same thing happened to African-Americans, it would be ignored.

    The race war song of 'We Shall Overcome' comes to mind.
    Last edited by Chris516; 05-18-13 at 07:39 PM.

  4. #54
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    Smashing the window was indeed significant. Whether the driver would have hurt one of the riders without that incident cannot be determined. But the probability of violence definitely escalated after the broken window.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by frantik View Post
    I got it the first time. If a crime happens at 1am in Oakland, odds are you'll blame the victim.
    LOL. Right on frantik. Good on you for defending the victims.
    Sadly that has to be done in a bicycling forum.

    Everyone ride a bike! (*but only when I think it's appropriate, even though I don't know the specifics or circumstances).

    If you read the article, the driver has a criminal record with sex-related crimes, embezzlement and making criminal threats.

    This will probably be a three strikes felony for him, and be put away for a long time.
    It's just the last (hopefully) in a long list of criminal activity.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by kenji666 View Post
    Smashing the window was indeed significant. Whether the driver would have hurt one of the riders without that incident cannot be determined. But the probability of violence definitely escalated after the broken window.
    The driver had already throw and hit one of the riders with a projectile... i.e. violence had already occurred. "The probability of having a window smashed definitely escalated after the thrown milkshake..."
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  7. #57
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    Yes, assault with a dairy product.

  8. #58
    Senior Member kalliergo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kenji666 View Post
    Yes, assault with a dairy product.
    Following an assault with a motor vehicle, if the linked story is correct.
    "What if we fail to stop the erosion of cities by automobiles?. . . In that case, we Americans will hardly need to ponder a mystery that has troubled men for millennia: What is the purpose of life? For us, the answer will be clear, established and for all practical purposes indisputable: The purpose of life is to produce and consume automobiles."

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  9. #59
    Senior Member alhedges's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris516 View Post

    While it is definitely not an equal struggle(but definitely an equal comparison), is that of the civil rights struggle of African-Americans in the U.S.
    Do you have no shame?

    When police start turning firehoses on groups of lawfully riding bikers, when bikers are not allowed to vote, when bikers have to send their children to special bicycle-only schools, when bicyclists are lynched by mobs...then, maybe you might have some sort of valid comparison. Until then, just keep any such insulting comparisons to yourself.

    Just as they have achieved more n' more racial equality(more still needs to be achieved), cyclists' are achieving(and need to continue to achieve) transportation equality. Just as African-Americans' deal with a race war that still exists in some places, and/or in some individuals. Cyclists' need to achieve equality in the 'transportation war'.

    Why am I calling it a war, because of the ambivalent ignorance, of authorities, not of the general public. Because law enforcement doesn't take cyclists' safety seriously. Except when a cyclist gets taken away from a scene in a:

    1. Ambulance
    2. Hearse
    3. Police car

    If they depart the scene in any other fashion, even eyewitness evidence means nothing to the authorities.
    You're calling it a war because you don't understand that cyclists injured by cars are treated just about the same as motorists injured by cars. Tens of thousands of drivers die in car wrecks in which no one is charged *every year*. Bikers aren't unique in this at all.

    Just like the U.S. race wars. Where something bad happening to Caucasians would be addressed. But if the same thing happened to African-Americans, it would be ignored.
    Again, stop trying to coopt the fight against racism for your imaginary war; it's demeaning and insulting to actual heroes who fought actual issues.

    The race war song of 'We Shall Overcome' comes to mind.
    The mating call of the deranged A&S denizen comes to mind.

    (And this is a particularly weird case to bring your race comparison, what with the driver being actually arrested and charged with a serious crime and all.)

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by frantik View Post
    The driver had already throw and hit one of the riders with a projectile... i.e. violence had already occurred. "The probability of having a window smashed definitely escalated after the thrown milkshake..."
    Yes, and that should have been a wake up call for the riders.

    In the mechanic forum there are folks who won't ride with a cut tire up front, with a slightly cracked frame, with a bent fork, or any of a number of mechanical problems which they consider too dangerous. So it seems that people are willing to avoid mechanical danger.

    However, when the danger isn't mechanical, common sense and safety go out the window. It's 1AM and you're confronted with a driver who's already demonstrated what he's capable of, and instead of riding away from him, one of you decides to provoke him further. Get real, use whatever common sense and survival instinct and recognize danger when it stares you in the face.

    If someone plays with fireworks and blows off his fingers, you'd be sympathetic, but also say he brought it on his self. Likewise people have to assume some degree of responsibility when they intentionally inflame a situation like this one.
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  11. #61
    24-Speed Machine Chris516's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kenji666 View Post
    Smashing the window was indeed significant. Whether the driver would have hurt one of the riders without that incident cannot be determined. But the probability of violence definitely escalated after the broken window.
    Without question, yes.

  12. #62
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    Due to the nature of my work I am often cycling home at late hours and sometimes in areas with a relatively high crime rate. It's comforting to know that should something ever happen to me there are those in BF's who will be quick to blame me for what they perceive as my risky behavior.

    There is absolutely NO excuse. NONE. NOT AN OUNCE of an excuse for what this driver did. It is unpardonable. Until we all have the courage and the wisdom to know that such an action is inexcusable we all lose.

  13. #63
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    Alhedges, I would have to agree that bicyclists are not treated as badly as the blacks were treated at one time. It is, however, the same "kind" of hatred. Maybe not as intense but the same type of group hate where there are those who hate an entire group of people so profusely they feel a justified right to commit serious felony crimes against them just because they are part of that group.

    I have seen people self incriminate themselves and do so proudly and feel fully justified in committing deliberate felony ADW against cyclists fully and proudly admitting it was a deliberate knowing act and I've seen uniformed law officers who saw and heard the self incrimination in person treat it as if it were absolutely nothing and tell the cyclist that they should just stay off the roads in order to stay safe and if they don't then they chose to take the risk and they get what they deserve while the cyclists is injured and tell the proud standing uninjured motorist that they can go now and even suggest that they might be able to get compensation for the damage (paint scratches) on their vehicle from the cyclist. I have also seen them with my own eyes refuse to send for medical attention for a cyclist who was down and desperately needed it.

    Just like the race discrimination problems are pretty much localized into inflamed pockets here and there the same is true for the discrimination against cyclists. Thankfully in my local area it is a lot better now then when I was a kid, at least they cleaned up about 3/4 of the problems with the crooked cops and a few motorists have actually be prosecuted for assaults on cyclists. But there is still a long way to go at least up here, from what I hear thankfully not as bad in a lot of other places but still work to be done in a lot of "hot spots" around the country. I just happen to be living in one and to have grown up in it when it was a lot nastier then it is now (thankfully some improvements have been made).

  14. #64
    Cycle Year Round CB HI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by frantik View Post
    that didn't take long.
    It never takes long for the blame the cyclist crowd here.
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  15. #65
    Cycle Year Round CB HI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by -=(8)=- View Post
    I was just thinking out loud, compared to posts like this, I would have rather been dragged by a nutcase rather than reading posts from them.
    Some of that critical thinking your always yapping about.
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  16. #66
    Cycle Year Round CB HI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CenturionIM View Post
    I am not sure if the smashing window episode is that significant. The driver was asking for trouble and repeatedly confronted the cyclist unsolicited, before the dude used u-lock on his window. He could have just tried something more serious all by himself.
    And this comment to the article proves your point.

    marg1nal Guest

    To everyone saying "the bikers started it" you were not there and you don't know this man. He is hostile, aggressive, unreasonable and violent. He's also 6'3" and 270lbs. I had a run-in with this same guy, and so did a person I work with, on a completely separate occasion. Neither of us did anything to him, and he even told me that he "hates bicyclists." When he attacked me, we had not had any kind of incident leading up to the altercation. I was simply riding alone when he suddenly brushed me off the road with his truck, then pulled over, got out, and started yelling at me and chasing me. Then he took a metal bar from his truck and started waving it around, kicked my rim in with his big boots when I tried to get away, and then got back in the truck and drove up onto the sidewalk in a crazy attempt to hit me. I was lucky to escape with just a trashed rim. I found out who he was from a neighbor who witnessed this. I looked up his criminal history, and it is long and bad.
    I know people tend to identify with their own "group" and many drivers are annoyed by bicyclists, but remember many bicyclists are also annoyed by drivers, and drivers are inside several tons of metal that can kill a person easily. People need to put aside being "right" for a second and think about the ecological mess we're in. People who are helping everyone by bicycling instead of driving deserve a safe place to ride, where cars are not constantly cutting them off and taking up all the space. Bicyclists pay taxes too, and their money goes to fund a transportation infrastructure that largely ignores their needs in favor of auto sprawl. How about a couple streets where cars aren't allowed, or bike lanes with fences so cars can't just drive into them or double park in them whenever they feel like it. Think about the big picture. Take out your anger on some bankers or some politicians, please just give bicyclists room to breathe.

    2 hours ago
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  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
    Likewise people have to assume some degree of responsibility when they intentionally inflame a situation like this one.
    So when someone attacks you and you defend yourself, then whatever your attacker does, you assume some degree of responsibility? cmon dude.. no one is responsible for what this guy did except himself.
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  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by kenji666 View Post
    Yes, assault
    exactly.
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  19. #69
    Senior Member howsteepisit's Avatar
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    How does anyone know it was the driver who grabbed the innocent cyclist? Could there have been a co-assailant? Even more scary.
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  20. #70
    Cycle Year Round CB HI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by howsteepisit View Post
    How does anyone know it was the driver who grabbed the innocent cyclist? Could there have been a co-assailant? Even more scary.
    The witnesses likely know and that is why the driver was charged. Anything else you would like to makeup and insert into the story?
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  21. #71
    Senior Member howsteepisit's Avatar
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    Was a question, not a made up bit, I was wondering how the driver reached out to grab a cyclist on the passenger side of the vehicle, or was the cyclist on the drivers side?

    Rereading the article, I would assume that the cyclist was passing on the left, not the right hand side of the vehicle, but that is not clear, nor is it clear which window the shake was thrown out of. I don't know what the witnesses know, nor does CB.
    Last edited by howsteepisit; 05-19-13 at 01:13 AM.
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  22. #72
    Cycle Year Round CB HI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by howsteepisit View Post
    Was a question, not a made up bit, I was wondering how the driver reached out to grab a cyclist on the passenger side of the vehicle, or was the cyclist on the drivers side?

    Rereading the article, I would assume that the cyclist was passing on the left, not the right hand side of the vehicle, but that is not clear, nor is it clear which window the shake was thrown out of. I don't know what the witnesses know, nor does CB.
    Let me get this straight, you think the article is just made up and not based on the witnesses mentioned in the article? You are not able to come to a logical conclusion based on the information provided and instead come up with such an off the wall question?

    For Eli Reyes, the event is still a blur. She still hears echoes of the voices of the terrified people who saw what happened to her.
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  23. #73
    ♋ ☮♂ ☭ ☯ -=(8)=-'s Avatar
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    Sleep it off, Otis
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  24. #74
    Cycle Year Round CB HI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by -=(8)=- View Post
    Sleep it off, Otis
    Have you been out drinking all night, now 5 am in Florida?
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  25. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by howsteepisit View Post
    Was a question, not a made up bit, I was wondering how the driver reached out to grab a cyclist on the passenger side of the vehicle, or was the cyclist on the drivers side?

    Rereading the article, I would assume that the cyclist was passing on the left, not the right hand side of the vehicle, but that is not clear, nor is it clear which window the shake was thrown out of. I don't know what the witnesses know, nor does CB.
    The article doesn't say which window the shake was thrown from, but it does say the driver's side window was broken out, so at least one rider went on the driver's side. Since only the driver was charged I'm assuming that there was no passenger or if they were, they were not involved.
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