Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > >

Advocacy & Safety Cyclists should expect and demand safe accommodation on every public road, just as do all other users. Discuss your bicycle advocacy and safety concerns here.

User Tag List

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 05-18-13, 06:55 PM   #51
spare_wheel
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: NA
Bikes: NA
Posts: 4,281
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Just because a violent criminal attacks an innocent bystander in Oakland CA does not mean that cyclists should live in fear of motorists. Its absurd to let this single act of irrational violence affect your behavior as a cyclist.
spare_wheel is offline  
Old 05-18-13, 07:00 PM   #52
CenturionIM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Bikes:
Posts: 1,049
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I am not sure if the smashing window episode is that significant. The driver was asking for trouble and repeatedly confronted the cyclist unsolicited, before the dude used u-lock on his window. He could have just tried something more serious all by himself.
CenturionIM is offline  
Old 05-18-13, 07:35 PM   #53
Chris516
24-Speed Machine
 
Chris516's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Wash. Grove, MD
Bikes: 2003 Specialized Allez 24-Speed Road Bike
Posts: 6,054
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
Just because a violent criminal attacks an innocent bystander in Oakland CA does not mean that cyclists should live in fear of motorists. Its absurd to let this single act of irrational violence affect your behavior as a cyclist.
+10,000,000!!!!!

Is that motorist unique in his response, probably. There are probably many motorists' that hate cyclists' just much, but don't go that far. (former)Dr. Christopher Thompson definitely did have the same kind of reaction.

Regardless of the two of them, or any other motorist like them, they should not be the determining factor in riding, or not riding.

While it is definitely not an equal struggle(but definitely an equal comparison), is that of the civil rights struggle of African-Americans in the U.S.

Just as they have achieved more n' more racial equality(more still needs to be achieved), cyclists' are achieving(and need to continue to achieve) transportation equality. Just as African-Americans' deal with a race war that still exists in some places, and/or in some individuals. Cyclists' need to achieve equality in the 'transportation war'.

Why am I calling it a war, because of the ambivalent ignorance, of authorities, not of the general public. Because law enforcement doesn't take cyclists' safety seriously. Except when a cyclist gets taken away from a scene in a:

1. Ambulance
2. Hearse
3. Police car

If they depart the scene in any other fashion, even eyewitness evidence means nothing to the authorities.

Just like the U.S. race wars. Where something bad happening to Caucasians would be addressed. But if the same thing happened to African-Americans, it would be ignored.

The race war song of 'We Shall Overcome' comes to mind.

Last edited by Chris516; 05-18-13 at 07:39 PM.
Chris516 is offline  
Old 05-18-13, 07:42 PM   #54
kenji666
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: On yer left
Bikes:
Posts: 1,648
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Smashing the window was indeed significant. Whether the driver would have hurt one of the riders without that incident cannot be determined. But the probability of violence definitely escalated after the broken window.
kenji666 is offline  
Old 05-18-13, 08:00 PM   #55
cruiserhead
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Bikes:
Posts: 1,869
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by frantik View Post
I got it the first time. If a crime happens at 1am in Oakland, odds are you'll blame the victim.
LOL. Right on frantik. Good on you for defending the victims.
Sadly that has to be done in a bicycling forum.

Everyone ride a bike! (*but only when I think it's appropriate, even though I don't know the specifics or circumstances).

If you read the article, the driver has a criminal record with sex-related crimes, embezzlement and making criminal threats.

This will probably be a three strikes felony for him, and be put away for a long time.
It's just the last (hopefully) in a long list of criminal activity.
cruiserhead is offline  
Old 05-18-13, 08:03 PM   #56
frantik
Chainstay Brake Mafia
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: California
Bikes:
Posts: 5,974
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by kenji666 View Post
Smashing the window was indeed significant. Whether the driver would have hurt one of the riders without that incident cannot be determined. But the probability of violence definitely escalated after the broken window.
The driver had already throw and hit one of the riders with a projectile... i.e. violence had already occurred. "The probability of having a window smashed definitely escalated after the thrown milkshake..."
frantik is offline  
Old 05-18-13, 08:06 PM   #57
kenji666
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: On yer left
Bikes:
Posts: 1,648
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Yes, assault with a dairy product.
kenji666 is offline  
Old 05-18-13, 08:25 PM   #58
kalliergo 
Senior Member
 
kalliergo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: SF Bay
Bikes: Trek Valencia+, Dutch cargo bike, Karate Monkey, etc.
Posts: 708
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by kenji666 View Post
Yes, assault with a dairy product.
Following an assault with a motor vehicle, if the linked story is correct.
__________________
"What if we fail to stop the erosion of cities by automobiles?. . . In that case, we Americans will hardly need to ponder a mystery that has troubled men for millennia: What is the purpose of life? For us, the answer will be clear, established and for all practical purposes indisputable: The purpose of life is to produce and consume automobiles."

~Jane Jacobs, The Death and Life of Great American Cities
kalliergo is offline  
Old 05-18-13, 08:58 PM   #59
alhedges
Senior Member
 
alhedges's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Naptown
Bikes: NWT 24sp DD; Brompton M6R
Posts: 1,133
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris516 View Post

While it is definitely not an equal struggle(but definitely an equal comparison), is that of the civil rights struggle of African-Americans in the U.S.
Do you have no shame?

When police start turning firehoses on groups of lawfully riding bikers, when bikers are not allowed to vote, when bikers have to send their children to special bicycle-only schools, when bicyclists are lynched by mobs...then, maybe you might have some sort of valid comparison. Until then, just keep any such insulting comparisons to yourself.
Quote:

Just as they have achieved more n' more racial equality(more still needs to be achieved), cyclists' are achieving(and need to continue to achieve) transportation equality. Just as African-Americans' deal with a race war that still exists in some places, and/or in some individuals. Cyclists' need to achieve equality in the 'transportation war'.

Why am I calling it a war, because of the ambivalent ignorance, of authorities, not of the general public. Because law enforcement doesn't take cyclists' safety seriously. Except when a cyclist gets taken away from a scene in a:

1. Ambulance
2. Hearse
3. Police car

If they depart the scene in any other fashion, even eyewitness evidence means nothing to the authorities.
You're calling it a war because you don't understand that cyclists injured by cars are treated just about the same as motorists injured by cars. Tens of thousands of drivers die in car wrecks in which no one is charged *every year*. Bikers aren't unique in this at all.
Quote:

Just like the U.S. race wars. Where something bad happening to Caucasians would be addressed. But if the same thing happened to African-Americans, it would be ignored.
Again, stop trying to coopt the fight against racism for your imaginary war; it's demeaning and insulting to actual heroes who fought actual issues.
Quote:

The race war song of 'We Shall Overcome' comes to mind.
The mating call of the deranged A&S denizen comes to mind.

(And this is a particularly weird case to bring your race comparison, what with the driver being actually arrested and charged with a serious crime and all.)
alhedges is offline  
Old 05-18-13, 09:19 PM   #60
FBinNY 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter
Posts: 30,862
Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 881 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by frantik View Post
The driver had already throw and hit one of the riders with a projectile... i.e. violence had already occurred. "The probability of having a window smashed definitely escalated after the thrown milkshake..."
Yes, and that should have been a wake up call for the riders.

In the mechanic forum there are folks who won't ride with a cut tire up front, with a slightly cracked frame, with a bent fork, or any of a number of mechanical problems which they consider too dangerous. So it seems that people are willing to avoid mechanical danger.

However, when the danger isn't mechanical, common sense and safety go out the window. It's 1AM and you're confronted with a driver who's already demonstrated what he's capable of, and instead of riding away from him, one of you decides to provoke him further. Get real, use whatever common sense and survival instinct and recognize danger when it stares you in the face.

If someone plays with fireworks and blows off his fingers, you'd be sympathetic, but also say he brought it on his self. Likewise people have to assume some degree of responsibility when they intentionally inflame a situation like this one.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site

An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.

“Never argue with an idiot. He will only bring you down to his level and beat you with experience.”, George Carlin

“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN

WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FBinNY is offline  
Old 05-18-13, 09:26 PM   #61
Chris516
24-Speed Machine
 
Chris516's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Wash. Grove, MD
Bikes: 2003 Specialized Allez 24-Speed Road Bike
Posts: 6,054
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by kenji666 View Post
Smashing the window was indeed significant. Whether the driver would have hurt one of the riders without that incident cannot be determined. But the probability of violence definitely escalated after the broken window.
Without question, yes.
Chris516 is offline  
Old 05-18-13, 09:53 PM   #62
buzzman
----
 
buzzman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Newton, MA
Bikes:
Posts: 4,570
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Due to the nature of my work I am often cycling home at late hours and sometimes in areas with a relatively high crime rate. It's comforting to know that should something ever happen to me there are those in BF's who will be quick to blame me for what they perceive as my risky behavior.

There is absolutely NO excuse. NONE. NOT AN OUNCE of an excuse for what this driver did. It is unpardonable. Until we all have the courage and the wisdom to know that such an action is inexcusable we all lose.
buzzman is offline  
Old 05-18-13, 09:56 PM   #63
turbo1889
Transportation Cyclist
 
turbo1889's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Montana U.S.A.
Bikes: Too many to list, some I built myself including the frame. I "do" ~ Human-Only-Pedal-Powered-Cycles, Human-Electric-Hybrid-Cycles, Human-IC-Hybrid-Cycles, and one Human-IC-Electric-3way-Hybrid-Cycle
Posts: 1,206
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Alhedges, I would have to agree that bicyclists are not treated as badly as the blacks were treated at one time. It is, however, the same "kind" of hatred. Maybe not as intense but the same type of group hate where there are those who hate an entire group of people so profusely they feel a justified right to commit serious felony crimes against them just because they are part of that group.

I have seen people self incriminate themselves and do so proudly and feel fully justified in committing deliberate felony ADW against cyclists fully and proudly admitting it was a deliberate knowing act and I've seen uniformed law officers who saw and heard the self incrimination in person treat it as if it were absolutely nothing and tell the cyclist that they should just stay off the roads in order to stay safe and if they don't then they chose to take the risk and they get what they deserve while the cyclists is injured and tell the proud standing uninjured motorist that they can go now and even suggest that they might be able to get compensation for the damage (paint scratches) on their vehicle from the cyclist. I have also seen them with my own eyes refuse to send for medical attention for a cyclist who was down and desperately needed it.

Just like the race discrimination problems are pretty much localized into inflamed pockets here and there the same is true for the discrimination against cyclists. Thankfully in my local area it is a lot better now then when I was a kid, at least they cleaned up about 3/4 of the problems with the crooked cops and a few motorists have actually be prosecuted for assaults on cyclists. But there is still a long way to go at least up here, from what I hear thankfully not as bad in a lot of other places but still work to be done in a lot of "hot spots" around the country. I just happen to be living in one and to have grown up in it when it was a lot nastier then it is now (thankfully some improvements have been made).
turbo1889 is offline  
Old 05-18-13, 10:18 PM   #64
CB HI
Cycle Year Round
 
CB HI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Honolulu, HI
Bikes:
Posts: 12,325
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 428 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by frantik View Post
that didn't take long.
It never takes long for the blame the cyclist crowd here.
__________________
Land of the Free, Because of the Brave.
CB HI is offline  
Old 05-18-13, 11:14 PM   #65
CB HI
Cycle Year Round
 
CB HI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Honolulu, HI
Bikes:
Posts: 12,325
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 428 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by -=(8)=- View Post
I was just thinking out loud, compared to posts like this, I would have rather been dragged by a nutcase rather than reading posts from them.
Some of that critical thinking your always yapping about.
__________________
Land of the Free, Because of the Brave.
CB HI is offline  
Old 05-18-13, 11:35 PM   #66
CB HI
Cycle Year Round
 
CB HI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Honolulu, HI
Bikes:
Posts: 12,325
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 428 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by CenturionIM View Post
I am not sure if the smashing window episode is that significant. The driver was asking for trouble and repeatedly confronted the cyclist unsolicited, before the dude used u-lock on his window. He could have just tried something more serious all by himself.
And this comment to the article proves your point.

Quote:
marg1nal Guest

To everyone saying "the bikers started it" you were not there and you don't know this man. He is hostile, aggressive, unreasonable and violent. He's also 6'3" and 270lbs. I had a run-in with this same guy, and so did a person I work with, on a completely separate occasion. Neither of us did anything to him, and he even told me that he "hates bicyclists." When he attacked me, we had not had any kind of incident leading up to the altercation. I was simply riding alone when he suddenly brushed me off the road with his truck, then pulled over, got out, and started yelling at me and chasing me. Then he took a metal bar from his truck and started waving it around, kicked my rim in with his big boots when I tried to get away, and then got back in the truck and drove up onto the sidewalk in a crazy attempt to hit me. I was lucky to escape with just a trashed rim. I found out who he was from a neighbor who witnessed this. I looked up his criminal history, and it is long and bad.
I know people tend to identify with their own "group" and many drivers are annoyed by bicyclists, but remember many bicyclists are also annoyed by drivers, and drivers are inside several tons of metal that can kill a person easily. People need to put aside being "right" for a second and think about the ecological mess we're in. People who are helping everyone by bicycling instead of driving deserve a safe place to ride, where cars are not constantly cutting them off and taking up all the space. Bicyclists pay taxes too, and their money goes to fund a transportation infrastructure that largely ignores their needs in favor of auto sprawl. How about a couple streets where cars aren't allowed, or bike lanes with fences so cars can't just drive into them or double park in them whenever they feel like it. Think about the big picture. Take out your anger on some bankers or some politicians, please just give bicyclists room to breathe.

2 hours ago
__________________
Land of the Free, Because of the Brave.
CB HI is offline  
Old 05-19-13, 12:45 AM   #67
frantik
Chainstay Brake Mafia
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: California
Bikes:
Posts: 5,974
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
Likewise people have to assume some degree of responsibility when they intentionally inflame a situation like this one.
So when someone attacks you and you defend yourself, then whatever your attacker does, you assume some degree of responsibility? cmon dude.. no one is responsible for what this guy did except himself.
frantik is offline  
Old 05-19-13, 12:47 AM   #68
frantik
Chainstay Brake Mafia
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: California
Bikes:
Posts: 5,974
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by kenji666 View Post
Yes, assault
exactly.
frantik is offline  
Old 05-19-13, 12:54 AM   #69
howsteepisit
Senior Member
 
howsteepisit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Eugene, OR
Bikes: Mecian
Posts: 3,990
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 250 Post(s)
How does anyone know it was the driver who grabbed the innocent cyclist? Could there have been a co-assailant? Even more scary.
howsteepisit is offline  
Old 05-19-13, 01:03 AM   #70
CB HI
Cycle Year Round
 
CB HI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Honolulu, HI
Bikes:
Posts: 12,325
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 428 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by howsteepisit View Post
How does anyone know it was the driver who grabbed the innocent cyclist? Could there have been a co-assailant? Even more scary.
The witnesses likely know and that is why the driver was charged. Anything else you would like to makeup and insert into the story?
__________________
Land of the Free, Because of the Brave.
CB HI is offline  
Old 05-19-13, 01:09 AM   #71
howsteepisit
Senior Member
 
howsteepisit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Eugene, OR
Bikes: Mecian
Posts: 3,990
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 250 Post(s)
Was a question, not a made up bit, I was wondering how the driver reached out to grab a cyclist on the passenger side of the vehicle, or was the cyclist on the drivers side?

Rereading the article, I would assume that the cyclist was passing on the left, not the right hand side of the vehicle, but that is not clear, nor is it clear which window the shake was thrown out of. I don't know what the witnesses know, nor does CB.

Last edited by howsteepisit; 05-19-13 at 01:13 AM.
howsteepisit is offline  
Old 05-19-13, 02:48 AM   #72
CB HI
Cycle Year Round
 
CB HI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Honolulu, HI
Bikes:
Posts: 12,325
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 428 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by howsteepisit View Post
Was a question, not a made up bit, I was wondering how the driver reached out to grab a cyclist on the passenger side of the vehicle, or was the cyclist on the drivers side?

Rereading the article, I would assume that the cyclist was passing on the left, not the right hand side of the vehicle, but that is not clear, nor is it clear which window the shake was thrown out of. I don't know what the witnesses know, nor does CB.
Let me get this straight, you think the article is just made up and not based on the witnesses mentioned in the article? You are not able to come to a logical conclusion based on the information provided and instead come up with such an off the wall question?

Quote:
For Eli Reyes, the event is still a blur. She still hears echoes of the voices of the terrified people who saw what happened to her.
__________________
Land of the Free, Because of the Brave.
CB HI is offline  
Old 05-19-13, 02:52 AM   #73
-=(8)=-
♋ ☮♂ ☭ ☯
 
-=(8)=-'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: 40205 'ViLLeBiLLie
Bikes: Sngl Spd's, 70's- 80's vintage, D-tube Folder
Posts: 7,903
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Sleep it off, Otis
__________________
-ADVOCACY-☜ Radical VC = Car people on bikes. Just say "NO"
-=(8)=- is offline  
Old 05-19-13, 03:15 AM   #74
CB HI
Cycle Year Round
 
CB HI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Honolulu, HI
Bikes:
Posts: 12,325
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 428 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by -=(8)=- View Post
Sleep it off, Otis
Have you been out drinking all night, now 5 am in Florida?
__________________
Land of the Free, Because of the Brave.
CB HI is offline  
Old 05-19-13, 04:22 AM   #75
frantik
Chainstay Brake Mafia
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: California
Bikes:
Posts: 5,974
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by howsteepisit View Post
Was a question, not a made up bit, I was wondering how the driver reached out to grab a cyclist on the passenger side of the vehicle, or was the cyclist on the drivers side?

Rereading the article, I would assume that the cyclist was passing on the left, not the right hand side of the vehicle, but that is not clear, nor is it clear which window the shake was thrown out of. I don't know what the witnesses know, nor does CB.
The article doesn't say which window the shake was thrown from, but it does say the driver's side window was broken out, so at least one rider went on the driver's side. Since only the driver was charged I'm assuming that there was no passenger or if they were, they were not involved.
frantik is offline  
Closed Thread


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:34 AM.