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-   -   Raging driver throws milkshake, grabs rider, runs her over, flees scene (http://www.bikeforums.net/advocacy-safety/890428-raging-driver-throws-milkshake-grabs-rider-runs-her-over-flees-scene.html)

howsteepisit 05-19-13 11:00 PM

Fair enough, but still not a solution for me. But too far off topic to get into that one.

ItsJustMe 05-20-13 06:27 AM

One of the cyclists smashed the truck's window and it's "unimaginable" that the driver got physical? Apparently their imaginer is broken. If you escalate to physical violence you'd better be sure to have control of the situation. Really stupid move IMO. Honestly I'd have been on the phone with 911 as soon as the guy got out of the vehicle.

spivonious 05-20-13 06:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by frantik (Post 15639806)
reached back with a U-lock and smashed the driver's-side window.

As horrible as the person driving the truck is, it was the cyclist's action that escalated things. Milkshakes hurt a lot less than being run over.

frantik 05-20-13 07:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ItsJustMe (Post 15644636)
If you escalate to physical violence

Quote:

Originally Posted by spivonious (Post 15644656)
it was the cyclist's action that escalated things.

Dude almost runs them off the road one time, throws things at them, then stops his car and is getting out to fight. At this point, you think the situation isn't escalated? The dude has already attacked them and was looking for more... He's apparently known to other cyclists and has done similar things in the past, WITHOUT a cyclist responding in kind. What would this psycho have to do before you would feel someone would be justified in defending themselves?

Dude is also a convicted r*pist.. that was probably the victims fault too..

JonnyHK 05-20-13 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by frantik (Post 15644808)
Dude almost runs them off the road one time, throws things at them, then stops his car and is getting out to fight. At this point, you think the situation isn't escalated? The dude has already attacked them and was looking for more... He's apparently known to other cyclists and has done similar things in the past, WITHOUT a cyclist responding in kind. What would this psycho have to do before you would feel someone would be justified in defending themselves?

Dude is also a convicted r*pist.. that was probably the victims fault too..


I'm going to play Devil's Advocate here.

- Using Hanlon's Razor as the test on the first one, plenty of drivers cut of cyclists without malice. They are simply idiots. The riders do not know anything about this driver (as we now do with the benefit of hindsight and a bit of research), yet they choose their response by 'swarming' the truck at the next traffic light. Then the cyclist smashes the window when he could have avoided the situation by stopping short and calling the cops.

The cyclists were unlucky to encounter a guy who was going to react badly and severely, but they are not completely innocent there.

dynodonn 05-20-13 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonnyHK (Post 15644888)

The cyclists were unlucky to encounter a guy who was going to react badly and severely, but they are not completely innocent there.


In reading the comment section of the article in the OP, it seems that just the mere act of riding a bike can be the catalyst to set off this motorist's anger. Here's an excerpt of one comment:

"To everyone saying "the bikers started it" you were not there and you don't know this man. He is hostile, aggressive, unreasonable and violent. He's also 6'3" and 270lbs. I had a run-in with this same guy, and so did a person I work with, on a completely separate occasion. Neither of us did anything to him, and he even told me that he "hates bicyclists." When he attacked me, we had not had any kind of incident leading up to the altercation. I was simply riding alone when he suddenly brushed me off the road with his truck, then pulled over, got out, and started yelling at me and chasing me. Then he took a metal bar from his truck and started waving it around, kicked my rim in with his big boots when I tried to get away, and then got back in the truck and drove up onto the sidewalk in a crazy attempt to hit me. I was lucky to escape with just a trashed rim. I found out who he was from a neighbor who witnessed this. I looked up his criminal history, and it is long and bad."

JonnyHK 05-20-13 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dynodonn (Post 15644948)
In reading the comment section of the article in the OP, it seems that just the mere act of riding a bike can be the catalyst to set off this motorist's anger. Here's an excerpt of one comment:

"To everyone saying "the bikers started it" you were not there and you don't know this man. He is hostile, aggressive, unreasonable and violent. He's also 6'3" and 270lbs. I had a run-in with this same guy, and so did a person I work with, on a completely separate occasion. Neither of us did anything to him, and he even told me that he "hates bicyclists." When he attacked me, we had not had any kind of incident leading up to the altercation. I was simply riding alone when he suddenly brushed me off the road with his truck, then pulled over, got out, and started yelling at me and chasing me. Then he took a metal bar from his truck and started waving it around, kicked my rim in with his big boots when I tried to get away, and then got back in the truck and drove up onto the sidewalk in a crazy attempt to hit me. I was lucky to escape with just a trashed rim. I found out who he was from a neighbor who witnessed this. I looked up his criminal history, and it is long and bad."


I don't believe the bikers "started it", but they had at least TWO clear moments to back off and avoid being dragged further down - yet they, as a group or due to poor 'leadership' by one of them, boldly dug themselves a deeper hole and one of them paid a very dear price.

The fact that ANOTHER cyclist in a SEPARATE incident on a DIFFERENT day had a problem with this a-hole driver does not absolve this group of 4 from being called stupid.

ZombieRider 05-20-13 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonnyHK (Post 15643661)
Having followed most of the discussion I am still drawn to the opinion that this group of cyclists were idiots who were one half of the escalation that then got out of control when the driver turned out to be a violent a-hole.

They could have stayed behind the truck after the first incident - yet they chose to ride around it on both sides, putting themselves in danger and almost certainly antagonising the driver.

They could have stopped or turned off after the milkshake, but they chose to ride by the stopped truck AGAIN (this time with the driver out) leading to a physical altercation and the smashing of the window. If the driver wasn't going psycho before, a smashed window was going to guarantee it - AND YOU'VE JUST RIDDEN CLOSE ENOUGH FOR HIM TO GRAB ONE OF YOU. Nice work Einstein.


The driver is going to go to jail - and deserve it - but I hope that the 3 riders who were not injured learn a few things for the future. Don't get tangled up with idiot drivers. Let them go on their way (and report them later, film them on your GoPro, whatever), and don't do macho **** that gets another in your group hurt.

These cyclists (or the key alpha male) didn't learn the lesson about poking wild animals with sticks. That never ends well.

New here. Just starting to ride on a regular basis but this post made me want to go from reading to posting.

Agree with what you wrote. One thing I notice we don't see in the article is how the cyclists reacted to the driver. It's almost as if this article expects us to believe that the cyclists never communicated with the idiot driver.

A driver buzzed them and yet they rode past him at the intersection. He had a red light which means the cyclists had a red light but didn't stop. You've already got an idiot driver who buzzed them and no doubt they said something to him or looked at him in the way one looks at a idiot or they gave him the one finger salute or a combination of all three as they ran the red light.

It's like waving a red flag in front of a bull.

So he catches up to them and tossed a milkshake. I'm sure there was some more words and gestures given by the cyclist nearest the milkshake. Can't blame them as I would have let loose a string of words/gestures as well if someone threw something at me. The idiot driver obviously had his window down and heard/saw the reaction to his throwing the milkshake and then stopped and got out of his truck.

And yet all four cyclists still approached him and his truck. Close enough that one rider could break a window on his vehicle and close enough for him, the driver, to grab one of the cyclists.

I might be new to riding but after being buzzed on purpose I'm not going to ride past the car running a red light in the process. I might decide to make a right turn and just go for a block or two and then double back. Or if I can't turn I'll stop for a minute or two and let the driver drive off.

If someone throws something at me I'm not going to get close enough for them to do something else because you can't know what the next "else" is going to be.

Are the cyclists victims? Yes.

But not all victims are blameless in what happens to them. Some victims don't stop to think about what they are doing. Some victims keep waving that flag in front of the idiot bull and then they get gored.

I hope this guy goes to jail for life.

But I also hope all the cyclists who where involved realize that they ignored the signs of danger and kept plunging head strong into the final confrontation. They are so lucky this criminal wasn't armed and willing to shoot over a broken window.

frantik 05-20-13 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonnyHK (Post 15644995)
I don't believe the bikers "started it", but they had at least TWO clear moments to back off and avoid being dragged further down - yet they, as a group or due to poor 'leadership' by one of them, boldly dug themselves a deeper hole and one of them paid a very dear price.

the driver buzzed them. they could have turned off the street, but i doubt many people would turn off due to a close pass. The bikers passed the vehicle at an intersection.. if they blew the red light, for most of you, this ALONE would justify the driver running all of them over. Then the driver passed them again, threw a milkshake, cut them off (according to another article i read - this explains why the riders were on the driver's side) and started to get out of his car.

I don't see a clear moment where you expect these people to "back off". I don't even think they would have to back off.. if someone starts attacking you, you have every right to defend yourself. Oh wait, never mind, that's "escalating things".. don't want to do anything that might upset your attacker. just relax and take it. it'll be over soon

this dude could run over half of you guys and you'd be like "sorry bro, totally my bad!"

frantik 05-20-13 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZombieRider (Post 15645367)
no doubt they said something to him or looked at him in the way one looks at a idiot or they gave him the one finger salute or a combination of all three

I know it's your first post and all.. but you're straight making things up. makes it so much easier to blame the victim that way! :thumb:

Brandonub 05-20-13 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by frantik (Post 15645630)
I don't even think they would have to back off.. if someone starts attacking you, you have every right to defend yourself.

I don't really see how someone could claim that smashing a window is self defense.

ZombieRider 05-20-13 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by frantik (Post 15645699)
I know it's your first post and all.. but you're straight making things up. makes it so much easier to blame the victim that way! :thumb:

You expect me to believe that four cyclists said nothing to a guy who purposely buzzed them? You expect me to believe that four cyclists made no gesture, rude or non-rude (such as putting up a hand to say hey lookout), to a guy who purposely buzzed them? You expect me to believe that four cyclists (who ran a red light) just rode by the idiot driver (stopped at that red light) who just purposely buzzed them and not one of them even glanced his way?

You expect me to believe that after the second incident where he threw a shake and hit one cyclist with it that not one person of the four cyclists said or did anything?

If so I'd say you're the one making things up.

But for sake of argument let's say that the cyclists did nothing after getting buzzed and hit with the shake by that idiot driver.....

That idiot driver threw something at them and hit one of the cyclists. That idiot driver then stopped further down the road and got out of his car and was waiting for the cyclists to come to him. That idiot driver was looking for a physical confrontation.

And not one cyclist of the four stopped short of him or turned around or turned onto another street to avoid a physical confrontation with him. Not one of them pulled out a cell phone and called the cops. (until after the girl was run over)

No they decided to ride past him again. One cyclist as he rode by the car broke a window after the guy lunged at him. That tells me the cyclist already had the u-lock in his hand was ready to use it as he rode up on the guy.

Make no mistake: The cyclists are victims.

But what I've noticed reading this thread is you don't understand that not all victims are equal. These victims were being harassed by an idiot driver and these victims made no effort to get away from him. They continued to travel the same direction as the idiot driver.

These four cyclists had multiple chances to break off the confrontation with the idiot driver.

If the driver had buzzed them and then immediately stop and jump out of the truck then you and I would be in agreement. However that didn't happen. The driver buzzed them and went further down the road. They passed him. He attacked them with the shake. They still rode in the same direction. The driver went further down the road and got out of his vehicle. The cyclists still rode towards him.

Understand this: The cyclists are victims. I hope the girl gets better soon. But I would tell those cyclists to their face that they were stupid to do what they did when it was clear the idiot driver was looking for a fight. I would tell them they are lucky that this career criminal didn't jump out with a gun and start shooting at them. I would tell them in the future that sometimes it's better to swallow your pride and hold back so as to avoid confrontation with an unknown then it is to continue to ride in a dangerous situation.

ZombieRider 05-20-13 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by frantik (Post 15645630)
the driver buzzed them. they could have turned off the street, but i doubt many people would turn off due to a close pass. The bikers passed the vehicle at an intersection.. if they blew the red light, for most of you, this ALONE would justify the driver running all of them over. Then the driver passed them again, threw a milkshake, cut them off (according to another article i read - this explains why the riders were on the driver's side) and started to get out of his car.

I don't see a clear moment where you expect these people to "back off". I don't even think they would have to back off.. if someone starts attacking you, you have every right to defend yourself. Oh wait, never mind, that's "escalating things".. don't want to do anything that might upset your attacker. just relax and take it. it'll be over soon

this dude could run over half of you guys and you'd be like "sorry bro, totally my bad!"

How about stopping?

I wouldn't have run a light right next to him after he buzzed me. I'd hang back. Let the light turn green. Let him drive off. Is everyone in such a hurry that they can't stop for a minute?

He's an idiot. Let him have his stupid "victory" against bikers. Don't aggravate an idiot whose already tried to harm you with his car.

sudo bike 05-20-13 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonnyHK (Post 15644995)
I don't believe the bikers "started it", but they had at least TWO clear moments to back off and avoid being dragged further down - yet they, as a group or due to poor 'leadership' by one of them, boldly dug themselves a deeper hole and one of them paid a very dear price.

The fact that ANOTHER cyclist in a SEPARATE incident on a DIFFERENT day had a problem with this a-hole driver does not absolve this group of 4 from being called stupid.

I look at it from the other perspective: The guy had TWO clear moments to back off when the cyclists graciously decided not to "fire back" TWICE. At least twice they were harassed and did nothing; they continued on their way without retaliating (which is more than a "reasonable person" would likely do). This is a clear indicator that he intended to continue harassing them... why anyone thinks stopping behind the truck would magically stop this continuing harassment is beyond me. He got out of the damn truck to go after them. There's allegations from one person that he drove up on the sidewalk to chase down a fleeing cyclist in another incident. So I ask again: at what point is it finally OK to fight back in some way without it being labeled escalation? Because it doesn't sound like this point ever exists until it is too late.

howsteepisit 05-20-13 03:18 PM

Sudo, I think that it would have been understandable under these circumstances to fight back. But to me, breaking out a window in the vehicle is not fighting back, its escalating the situation, and ultimately whether it was escalation or not, an innocent cyclist was severely injured. Yes, I personally believe that the cyclists could have ducked down a side street, or stopped and not passed by the guy, or some such thing, but for sure, if they decided enough was enough, the first hit should have been aimed to disable the driver, not to damage his car.

sudo bike 05-20-13 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by howsteepisit (Post 15646791)
Sudo, I think that it would have been understandable under these circumstances to fight back. But to me, breaking out a window in the vehicle is not fighting back, its escalating the situation, and ultimately whether it was escalation or not, an innocent cyclist was severely injured. Yes, I personally believe that the cyclists could have ducked down a side street, or stopped and not passed by the guy, or some such thing, but for sure, if they decided enough was enough, the first hit should have been aimed to disable the driver, not to damage his car.

But you don't have any information at all behind the window breaking. All we know is a window was broken by one of the cyclists. There's no other context. There's no way to know if this was broken in the course of a scuffle, if it was just out of pure frustration, if it was meant as a deterrent... there's just no way to know how it went down. And in the heat of the moment, weird things happen (personal experience... worked at a hotel with more than our fair share of altercations).

Big assumptions against the cyclist need to be made in order to assume it was just escalation. I agree that disabling the driver, if that point was reached, would have been a better course of action, but particularly for people who have never experienced it, violence is a very hard thing for some people to engage in, even when necessary. People get panicky. Who's to say whether the window was busted out from anger, fear, or any number of other visceral reactions you might expect when you're being harassed by a lunatic in a 2 ton steel cage. It's easy for us to criticize from our comfy chairs without tons of adrenaline pumping through us.

ItsJustMe 05-20-13 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by frantik (Post 15644808)
What would this psycho have to do before you would feel someone would be justified in defending themselves?

I have no problem with defending yourself. Smashing the guy's window is in no way defending yourself. If the guy with the U lock came up behind him and smashed him in the head while he was clearly getting ready to attack one of the other riders, or if he hit him while he was attacking, or even if it was clear that the guy was unstable, I'd have no problem with it. That's defending yourself. Committing property damage because you're in a rage is just escalation.

sudo bike 05-20-13 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ItsJustMe (Post 15646893)
Committing property damage because you're in a rage is just escalation.

This is an assumption.

howsteepisit 05-20-13 03:58 PM

"
the truck driver stepped out to confront the lead cyclist, Josh Harrington, 31, of Oakland. Harrington swerved around the motorist, then reached back with a U-lock and smashed the driver's-side window."

Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/johnso...#ixzz2TsA4ZCt9

Seem pretty clear to me. Your have your read, I have mine

ZombieRider 05-20-13 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sudo bike (Post 15646287)
I look at it from the other perspective: The guy had TWO clear moments to back off when the cyclists graciously decided not to "fire back" TWICE.

That's not a good way too look at it.

Do not rely on the other person to deescalate a situation. Especially when that other person started the problem.

The driver has already tried to hurt the cyclists by buzzing them which could have caused one or more of them to crash on the side of the road.

It is illogical to think the driver would then back off.

It is best to assume the driver will continue to harass the cyclists and that the cyclists should take action to deescalate the situation.

Quote:

At least twice they were harassed and did nothing; they continued on their way without retaliating (which is more than a "reasonable person" would likely do). This is a clear indicator that he intended to continue harassing them... why anyone thinks stopping behind the truck would magically stop this continuing harassment is beyond me.
First we don't know that they did nothing in response. And frankly knowing humans I seriously doubt they let the buzzing and the milkshake slide without some response.

Second since it's clear that he's not going to back off the cyclists should have realized that and backed off themselves for their own safety.

Third it is possible that stopping behind his truck would not stop the harassment but remember after the initial buzzing he drove further down the road and was stopped at a red light. Had they stopped far enough back he may have just driven off when the light turned green. If he didn't move then they could have called the police and/or turned around and headed away from him. Instead they drove up to his car and ran the red light. Not a smart move IMHO. The idiot has already buzzed them as he drove by. No doubt he's "enraged" that a bunch of cyclists ran the light when he can't. He's already a stupid guy for the buzzing and that's probably exactly what he was thinking when the cyclists blew through the light.

Quote:

He got out of the damn truck to go after them. There's allegations from one person that he drove up on the sidewalk to chase down a fleeing cyclist in another incident. So I ask again: at what point is it finally OK to fight back in some way without it being labeled escalation? Because it doesn't sound like this point ever exists until it is too late.
The cyclists could not have known about the previous incident. Nor could they have known this guy was a former felon with a long and violent criminal record.

Had they I bet they would have backed off.

It of course depends on state law regarding self defense for your question. The cyclist with the lock would probably be justified at taking a swing at the idiot since the idiot did get out to confront and attack the cyclist. But swerving around the guy and then hitting the window? That's not self defense. That's revenge for the driver being a jerk.

And look at the result. The driver almost killed another cyclist because of it.

WPeabody 05-20-13 05:22 PM

Oy... some of the people on the news site commenting on the article are making it all about cyclists versus motorists. It was the rare case of an unstable individual who needs some serious psychiatric intervention, who came upon some cyclists, who just happened to cross the radius of this unstable person's radar. I've had my own run-ins with whack jobs and it had absolutely nothing to do with what I was driving, or riding or what I was doing at all. Random, crazy people are just that. Random and crazy. It's better to make that assessment ASAP, and get away from them in any way possible. And call the police to report it. That way, if said whack job does it again, it's on the record. Some of these people are always looking for something to blame for their misery...

CB HI 05-20-13 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by howsteepisit (Post 15646935)
"
the truck driver stepped out to confront the lead cyclist, Josh Harrington, 31, of Oakland. Harrington swerved around the motorist, then reached back with a U-lock and smashed the driver's-side window."

Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/johnso...#ixzz2TsA4ZCt9

Seem pretty clear to me. Your have your read, I have mine

So it is possible based on that quote, that the cyclist was swinging his U-lock behind him to hit the driver, missed and got the window instead.

turbo1889 05-20-13 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WPeabody (Post 15647197)
Oy... some of the people on the news site commenting on the article are making it all about cyclists versus motorists. It was the rare case of an unstable individual who needs some serious psychiatric intervention, who came upon some cyclists, who just happened to cross the radius of this unstable person's radar. I've had my own run-ins with whack jobs and it had absolutely nothing to do with what I was driving, or riding or what I was doing at all. Random, crazy people are just that. Random and crazy. It's better to make that assessment ASAP, and get away from them in any way possible. And call the police to report it. That way, if said whack job does it again, it's on the record. Some of these people are always looking for something to blame for their misery...

It appears that this individual has had at least one other incident where he specifically harassed another cyclist specifically because they were cyclist and clearly stated so, even to the point of driving his vehicle up on a side-walk to get at the cyclist. If that is correct, the person is not a random crazy person, but rather a person with enough hate against cyclists to commit criminal offenses against them because they are cyclists.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Also, unrelated to the above quoted post, some are saying that the cyclists passed the guy's vehicle against the light running a red light. Although what I know of cyclists behaving badly I certainly consider that possible. I also know a little bit about motorists behaving badly and I've had more then one stop on a green light and position their vehicle either to try to block me or to turn into me "waiting in ambush" for me to try to pass them when they were stopped at a green light. Do we know that the light was red and this guy stopped for the red light and the cyclists didn't, do we know that he stopped for a green light trying to block them from proceeding or waiting in ambush, or do we not know which of the two it was ??? Some facts clarification would help.

howsteepisit 05-20-13 06:49 PM

So it is possible based on that quote, that the cyclist was swinging his U-lock behind him to hit the driver, missed and got the window instead.

Doubtful






WPeabody 05-20-13 07:11 PM

I just found the way the article was slanted was that it seemed to be about how this is an example of how cylists and motorists are "clashing", when it was actually the rare person who was highly unstable who committed a crime against an innocent person. Most drivers aren't that crazy, just clueless. It was a bad example to use, and it just stirs people up... there should be more emphasis on those people who aren't paying attention, or are too impatient to proceed safely. That is the common occurrence. If people were behaving more like this person in this particular incident, I'd probably be carrying a firearm. Or move to Baghdad. :P


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