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  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by turbo1889 View Post
    Also, unrelated to the above quoted post, some are saying that the cyclists passed the guy's vehicle against the light running a red light. Although what I know of cyclists behaving badly I certainly consider that possible. I also know a little bit about motorists behaving badly and I've had more then one stop on a green light and position their vehicle either to try to block me or to turn into me "waiting in ambush" for me to try to pass them when they were stopped at a green light. Do we know that the light was red and this guy stopped for the red light and the cyclists didn't, do we know that he stopped for a green light trying to block them from proceeding or waiting in ambush, or do we not know which of the two it was ??? Some facts clarification would help.
    This is from the article:

    The cyclists rode around the truck as it was stopped at an intersection. When the light changed and the truck passed the cyclists again, a milk shake came flying out of one of the vehicle's windows, slopping onto one of the riders.

    To me it reads as that he was at the intersection and they passed him. When the light changed he then caught and in the process of passing them threw a milkshake at them which hit one of the cyclists.

  2. #152
    Transportation Cyclist turbo1889's Avatar
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    ^ Yup, sounds like they did run the light, something that usually twists most motorists the wrong way (seeing a cyclists run a red). Considering this guy allegedly already had a deep seated hatred of cyclists and being an angry violent person in general I'm sure it must have twisted him.

    Which of course does not justify felony criminal assault.

  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZombieRider View Post
    This is from the article:

    The cyclists rode around the truck as it was stopped at an intersection. When the light changed and the truck passed the cyclists again, a milk shake came flying out of one of the vehicle's windows, slopping onto one of the riders.

    To me it reads as that he was at the intersection and they passed him. When the light changed he then caught and in the process of passing them threw a milkshake at them which hit one of the cyclists.
    Quote Originally Posted by turbo1889 View Post
    ^ Yup, sounds like they did run the light, something that usually twists most motorists the wrong way (seeing a cyclists run a red). Considering this guy allegedly already had a deep seated hatred of cyclists and being an angry violent person in general I'm sure it must have twisted him.

    Which of course does not justify felony criminal assault.
    If they had run a red light, it probably would have been explicitly mentioned in the write-up; very few car-centric folks would pass on the opportunity to blame the cyclists and such an infraction is ammunition. Since it doesn't say they ran a red light, it seems fair to consider the possibility, nay likelihood, that the felon was stopped behind another vehicle and the cyclists moved up beside that vehicle.

    Oakland isn't Podunk. There's a fair amount of activity even at 1:00 A.M.

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    In Oakland a milkshake is probably the best thing a motorist can use as a projectile.

    That place isnt a murder hub for no reason.

    If you are out riding at 1 am you best keep to yourself or expect something bad to happen to you.

  5. #155
    Senior Member dynodonn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonnyHK View Post
    I don't believe the bikers "started it", but they had at least TWO clear moments to back off and avoid being dragged further down - yet they, as a group or due to poor 'leadership' by one of them, boldly dug themselves a deeper hole and one of them paid a very dear price.

    The fact that ANOTHER cyclist in a SEPARATE incident on a DIFFERENT day had a problem with this a-hole driver does not absolve this group of 4 from being called stupid.

    "A problem" is an understatement on your part. "The problem" as I see it is in the one commenting cyclist not reporting his incident to law enforcement, since it might have been the trigger to get law enforcement to take more serious action against this motorist at an earlier stage.

    I wouldn't call the cyclists "stupid" maybe "foolish" in their decision making in this incident, but we've all made foolish decisions at points during our lifetime. Their decision to address this issue may send this motorist to prison for a very long time due to his prior criminal history, possibly saving a number of other cyclists considerable grief.

  6. #156
    Senior Member JonnyHK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by frantik View Post
    I don't see a clear moment where you expect these people to "back off".
    First incident: truck cuts off riders.

    Riders catch up to truck at traffic light and think or say:
    "Let's stay behind this guy, he seems like a jerk. I think we should just let him go."

    /situation, everyone goes home.


    Makes the rest of what you say moot.

    Quote Originally Posted by frantik View Post
    I don't even think they would have to back off.. if someone starts attacking you, you have every right to defend yourself. Oh wait, never mind, that's "escalating things".. don't want to do anything that might upset your attacker. just relax and take it. it'll be over soon

    this dude could run over half of you guys and you'd be like "sorry bro, totally my bad!"
    Even if you do have a right to defend yourself, why set yourself up to actually need it?

  7. #157
    Senior Member JonnyHK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dynodonn View Post
    "A problem" is an understatement on your part. "The problem" as I see it is in the one commenting cyclist not reporting his incident to law enforcement, since it might have been the trigger to get law enforcement to take more serious action against this motorist at an earlier stage.
    They could have phoned 911 at a number of earlier points. A number of reports to police would have built up and this driver would have been eventually nailed (remember that Doctor who brake-checked the riders in CA - he had prior reports that helped screw him in court).


    Quote Originally Posted by dynodonn View Post
    I wouldn't call the cyclists "stupid" maybe "foolish" in their decision making in this incident, but we've all made foolish decisions at points during our lifetime. Their decision to address this issue may send this motorist to prison for a very long time due to his prior criminal history, possibly saving a number of other cyclists considerable grief.
    They weren't 'addressing this issue' - they didn't know anything about this driver or his record. All they knew was that some jerk cut them off with his truck. You are giving them waaaaay too much credit. They were not thinking smart and it helped make a bad situation worse.

    The fact that this driver is now going to be off the road for a while is a co-incidence and a bonus.

  8. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by dynodonn View Post
    "The problem" as I see it is in the one commenting cyclist not reporting his incident to law enforcement, since it might have been the trigger to get law enforcement to take more serious action against this motorist at an earlier stage
    Oakland has one of the worst police departments in the nation.. better to take your chances with this dude than OPD
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  9. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonnyHK View Post
    First incident: truck cuts off riders.

    Riders catch up to truck at traffic light and think or say:
    "Let's stay behind this guy, he seems like a jerk. I think we should just let him go."

    /situation, everyone goes home.


    Makes the rest of what you say moot.
    as i said, i don't think most people would do what you're saying. and their choice to continue riding on the road has no bearing on the other person's choice to attack them.

    If they had just not been riding their bikes at all, everyone goes home. Or a million other things. But SOMEONE ELSE still chose to attack them.


    We can reduce this arguement ad absurdum.. every cyclist makes a choice to ride on the road. if they get hit, well that's their fault. If they were just not riding their bike, they could have gone home safely! Everyone who dies from a *** shot, well that's their fault. If they had just been wearing body armor, they could have gone home safely! Everyone who's dying in the tornadoes chose to live where they know tornadoes occur... totally their fault!
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  10. #160
    Senior Member kalliergo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by frantik View Post
    Oakland has one of the worst police departments in the nation.. better to take your chances with this dude than OPD
    Well, it would have been better to fall back when the moron executed the original close-pass assault. And, if the cyclists didn't have enough foresight to do that, the guy with the U-lock definitely picked the wrong target when he smashed the window after the driver exited the vehicle for a confrontation.

    But, reporting this sort of incident to OPD is unlikely in the extreme to produce any action from law enforcement. The department, we have recently learned, has one part-time investigator to follow up on 10,000 (that's right) burglaries. It has failed to meet its obligations under a consent decree administered by a federal judge and the court has appointed outside supervisors to oversee operations. Harrassment of cyclists just isn't going to make it to the top of the priority list anytime soon.

    That said, this incident happened downtown, at 1 a.m. It's a city, not Smallville USA, but it's not really particularly dangerous to be there, unless you run into wackos like this truck driver and confront him rather than avoid him (and are dumb enough to break his window instead of his head when things do escalate).

    A lot of poor schmucks who didn't deserve it have been rolled over by our badly-written three strikes law, but it might work well in this case. The driver sounds like an excellent candidate for 25-to-life.
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  11. #161
    Cycle Year Round CB HI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZombieRider View Post
    This is from the article:

    The cyclists rode around the truck as it was stopped at an intersection. When the light changed and the truck passed the cyclists again, a milk shake came flying out of one of the vehicle's windows, slopping onto one of the riders.

    To me it reads as that he was at the intersection and they passed him. When the light changed he then caught and in the process of passing them threw a milkshake at them which hit one of the cyclists.
    That is exactly how motorist describe cyclist filtering to the front of the line at an intersection. Why do you guys think there was NO other traffic in Oakland of all places when this happened. Once the cyclist were at the front of the line, of course the raging idiot had to catch up to them again after the light turned green.

    You guys insist on thinking the worst of these cyclist. They are not the felons, the crazy motorist is the one with a felony record.
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  12. #162
    Transportation Cyclist turbo1889's Avatar
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    Think the worst - No. Prepared to realize mistakes might have been made by the cyclists as well - Yes.

    Prepared to say that what mistakes the cyclists might have made if we think the worst based on the reports at hand deserved to be attacked with near lethal force - ABSOLUTELY NOT.

  13. #163
    Cycle Year Round CB HI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by turbo1889 View Post
    Think the worst - No. Prepared to realize mistakes might have been made by the cyclists as well - Yes.
    Seems you are not reading such post as ZombieRider puts up.
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  14. #164
    Senior Member kalliergo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CB HI View Post
    That is exactly how motorist describe cyclist filtering to the front of the line at an intersection. Why do you guys think there was NO other traffic in Oakland of all places when this happened. Once the cyclist were at the front of the line, of course the raging idiot had to catch up to them again after the light turned green.

    You guys insist on thinking the worst of these cyclist. They are not the felons, the crazy motorist is the one with a felony record.
    Yeah, the cyclists didn't exhibit the most impressive street smarts, but their errors pale in comparison with the driver's behavior. It's one thing to point out that the folks on bikes could have handled the situation more skilfully. It's quite another to even imply that they are somehow responsible for the attack.

    And there will be witnesses, almost certainly.
    "What if we fail to stop the erosion of cities by automobiles?. . . In that case, we Americans will hardly need to ponder a mystery that has troubled men for millennia: What is the purpose of life? For us, the answer will be clear, established and for all practical purposes indisputable: The purpose of life is to produce and consume automobiles."

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  15. #165
    Transportation Cyclist turbo1889's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kalliergo View Post
    . . . It's one thing to point out that the folks on bikes could have handled the situation more skilfully. It's quite another to even imply that they are somehow responsible for the attack. . .
    +1

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    Quote Originally Posted by JonnyHK View Post
    First incident: truck cuts off riders.

    Riders catch up to truck at traffic light and think or say:
    "Let's stay behind this guy, he seems like a jerk. I think we should just let him go."

    /situation, everyone goes home...

    Except that a prior incident with this violent felon involved him chasing the cyclist up onto the sidewalk with his truck and also exiting it and chasing the cyclist with a tire iron. Why in the world would you think that he would give up the chase just because his quarry is behind him? Come on, arm chair quarterback, you've got the benefit of hindsight. Use it.

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    Cycle Year Round CB HI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by B. Carfree View Post
    Except that a prior incident with this violent felon involved him chasing the cyclist up onto the sidewalk with his truck and also exiting it and chasing the cyclist with a tire iron. Why in the world would you think that he would give up the chase just because his quarry is behind him? Come on, arm chair quarterback, you've got the benefit of hindsight. Use it.
    Yeah, I have had at least six incidents that immediately come to mind where I have slowed/stopped to stay behind idiot motorist. One tried to back up into me. One wanted to stop and back into me but another motorist was in his way. One went around the block to get back behind me. Two made right turns, then a U-turn to get back behind me.

    The funniest guy, kept slowing and stopping but could not get at me because of the rush hour traffic. I just waved at him. When he started driving again, he would turn his head all the way around, but he could not hold his line and repeatedly ran into the curb. He finally got so pissed, he gunned it, went a full block and a half ahead and turned into a gas station to wait for me. Too bad for him, my turn off was only half a block ahead and I made my turn while he could not see me. I still wonder how long he waited for me to ride by.
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  18. #168
    Senior Member JonnyHK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by B. Carfree View Post
    Except that a prior incident with this violent felon involved him chasing the cyclist up onto the sidewalk with his truck and also exiting it and chasing the cyclist with a tire iron. Why in the world would you think that he would give up the chase just because his quarry is behind him? Come on, arm chair quarterback, you've got the benefit of hindsight. Use it.
    I don't want to say you are being obtuse, but you really are.

    This driver wasn't going around all day, everyday, seeking out cyclists and chasing them. He'd have been caught a lot earlier if he did. Being an a-hole who cuts in on cyclists sometimes is just that for most motorists, however this driver would go further...

    This driver was triggered into more than cutting in by the actions (however legal or innocent) and reactions of cyclists.

    Remove the trigger, then there is no 'chase'.

    These 4 riders would not have known about the previous incident, nor anything else about this driver. They made their decisions, this drivers trigger was pulled, and here we are today.

    Can I be sure that the driver would have just kept driving after that first traffic light if the riders stayed behind him? Of course not. However, without something to set of his 'hair trigger' perhaps it might have been OK. The incident with the tyre iron you mention had a 'trigger' for our driver too, and once triggered he wasn't going to stop.

  19. #169
    Senior Member JonnyHK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by frantik View Post
    as i said, i don't think most people would do what you're saying.
    Maybe I've been riding too long (or have read too many horror stories in here!). I think about this stuff and adjust what I'm doing accordingly. Boldly going about your day without much though to the repercussions is plain dumb - however YMMV depending on your experience, training, age and so on.

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    Cycle Year Round CB HI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonnyHK View Post
    I don't want to say you are being obtuse, but you really are.

    This driver wasn't going around all day, everyday, seeking out cyclists and chasing them. He'd have been caught a lot earlier if he did. Being an a-hole who cuts in on cyclists sometimes is just that for most motorists, however this driver would go further...

    This driver was triggered into more than cutting in by the actions (however legal or innocent) and reactions of cyclists.

    Remove the trigger, then there is no 'chase'.

    These 4 riders would not have known about the previous incident, nor anything else about this driver. They made their decisions, this drivers trigger was pulled, and here we are today.

    Can I be sure that the driver would have just kept driving after that first traffic light if the riders stayed behind him? Of course not. However, without something to set of his 'hair trigger' perhaps it might have been OK. The incident with the tyre iron you mention had a 'trigger' for our driver too, and once triggered he wasn't going to stop.
    And what was the trigger the child instigated for the child **** this guy committed?
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  21. #171
    Transportation Cyclist turbo1889's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CB HI View Post
    Yeah, I have had at least six incidents that immediately come to mind where I have slowed/stopped to stay behind idiot motorist. One tried to back up into me. One wanted to stop and back into me but another motorist was in his way. One went around the block to get back behind me. Two made right turns, then a U-turn to get back behind me.

    The funniest guy, kept slowing and stopping but could not get at me because of the rush hour traffic. I just waved at him. When he started driving again, he would turn his head all the way around, but he could not hold his line and repeatedly ran into the curb. He finally got so pissed, he gunned it, went a full block and a half ahead and turned into a gas station to wait for me. Too bad for him, my turn off was only half a block ahead and I made my turn while he could not see me. I still wonder how long he waited for me to ride by.
    ThankYou for that, I don't feel like I'm the only one now and its just all in my mind. I've had them pull stunts like that on me too including one guy who crossed over three lanes of traffic into the oncoming flow of traffic to "get at me" and run me off into the ditch to avoid getting run down when I was riding on the shoulder on the opposite side of the road going the other direction. There are those out there who hate cyclists enough to commit what I consider to be hate crimes against them, just a fact of life. I for one do my best to avoid a direct confrontation and out think and out maneuver them but push come to shove I will fight if I have to. I'm also smart enough to use the U-lock properly if it comes down to that and that is what I have for an improvised weapon although I rarely carry a U-lock but if that is what I had and nothing better to fight with the only reason I would break a window with it is if the window was inbetween me and the guys head and I had to bust the window before I could bust his head.

  22. #172
    Senior Member JonnyHK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CB HI View Post
    And what was the trigger the child instigated for the child **** this guy committed?

    Really CB? Really? That is bottom of the barrel even for some folks around here.

    We've been talking about the actions/reactions of cyclists that might make their situations worse, especially if they don't know how the driver might react.

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    Cycle Year Round CB HI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonnyHK View Post
    Really CB? Really? That is bottom of the barrel even for some folks around here.

    We've been talking about the actions/reactions of cyclists that might make their situations worse, especially if they don't know how the driver might react.
    What is really low is for some cyclist to claim other cyclist had to of triggered this felon into committing his crimes while not apply the same criteria for the same felon to his other crimes. Wake up, he is a violent felon, he does not need a trigger from his victims to commit his felonies.

    If this guy will **** a child, do you seriously think he needs a trigger to assault adults?

    You are just too hell bent on blaming the cyclist.
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    Senior Member JonnyHK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CB HI View Post
    What is really low is for some cyclist to claim other cyclist had to of triggered this felon into committing his crimes while not apply the same criteria for the same felon to his other crimes. Wake up, he is a violent felon, he does not need a trigger from his victims to commit his felonies.

    If this guy will **** a child, do you seriously think he needs a trigger to assault adults?

    You are just too hell bent on blaming the cyclist.

    I don't know, maybe I'm just not hell bent on being an absolute apologist for these cyclists - especially after you agree with my suggestions and admit that you've retreated/waited/let things pass to avoid trouble with motorists (with varied levels of success!). Although you are probably more experienced and aware than these cyclists in this case.



    This particular driver *may* not have needed a specific or large trigger, but you're mixing things up here.

    Are all child ******* bad and violent drivers? Nope. Plenty of cases to demonstrate otherwise.

    Are all bad and violent drivers child *******? Nope. Some folks are just crappy drivers or just plain violent.

    The link is more likely to be coincidental in this case, so a poor argument.



    Will we ever know if these cyclists could have made a different choice and this situation would have passed? No.

    But I'm pretty sure that there is a lot consensus above that they certainly did things that we agree didn't help - and that is not 'blaming the victim'.

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    Cycle Year Round CB HI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonnyHK View Post
    I don't know, maybe I'm just not hell bent on being an absolute apologist for these cyclists - especially after you agree with my suggestions and admit that you've retreated/waited/let things pass to avoid trouble with motorists (with varied levels of success!). Although you are probably more experienced and aware than these cyclists in this case.
    You read too much into my post. I have never retreated. Hanging back is sort of fun, because I do not have to do anything to piss these bullies off even more. Once that happens, they stop thinking and I have the upper hand.

    They started off trying to piss me off and get me to flip the bird at them. That is a win for these bully nuts. I just flip it on them and smile the rest of the commute.

    To this OP, we have a significant amount of information on this felon, pretending that information is not available and trying to talk about motorist in general is dishonest to the discussion. Now lets talk about this specific violent felon.
    Land of the Free, Because of the Brave.

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