frantik

Be careful out their folks...

https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/j...01f14af4e2e6ab

btw if you want to help out the injured cyclist, sounds like she could use it https://www.gofundme.com/2t3p3w

-=(8)=-

1:00am in Oakland ?!?!?!
A confrontational driver ???

Im sorry for what happened, but sometimes people need to exercise a little foresight.

frantik

that didn't take long


PS I've ridden my bike in Oakland at 1am. I didn't get hit with any milkshakes or get run over.

howsteepisit

Shows that escalation is a bad idea, cars/trucks have more weapons than cyclists.

-=(8)=-

And that didnt take long . . . .
"It didnt happen to me, so it doesnt happen . . . "

I rode my bicycle in the bike murder capitol of the USA and Im still here to type this,
but that doesnt change the fact that South florida is a dangerous place for cyclists, statistically.

frantik

yeah i definitely would recommend escaping vs escalating, especially if you've still got friends who are potentially in harm's way. but this guy had already cut them off, thrown a milkshake AND was getting out of his car.. sounds all bad

PedalingFool

What a stupid driver...
Definitely doesn't appreciate a great milkshake.

FBinNY 

There's no defense for the driver, and hopefully the DA, Judge and Jury will be tired of his face and he'll get life as a repeat offender.

BUT

We also need to consider whether smashing a window with a U-lock, however provoked one might have been, wasn't a factor in how this situation played out.

As cyclists, we need to be mindful that there are more crazies outside than inside jails and institutions, and the rule of the day should be avoid, or defuse, rather than going all macho with a stranger who may be playing for higher stakes that you're willing to. Exercise the same discretion with feral humans as you would with feral dogs

frantik

lol.. "i failed to understand the point so i'll make something up"

Here was the point: You implied the riders lacked foresight. Your location indicates you live in Kentucky. Perhaps you've ridden in Oakland. But I'm guessing you haven't, while I have. So, I'm guessing I have more knowledge about if these riders made a poor decision or not.

frantik

ralph12

This kind of degeneracy is most abominable.

Chris516

I agree with that. Then again, creeps like that driver are out on the road at any time of the day.

FBinNY 

We don't have to debate whether riding at 1AM makes sense. I certainly don't blame anyone for doing so, except maybe on a Friday or Saturday night when the drunks are in force.

However, having good evidence of the kind of person they were dealing with, it should have been obvious that escalating the situation by breaking a window want's going to lead to anything positive. If you hit a feral dog with a stick, you should be surprised if he bites.

-=(8)=-

I will waste some time hoping to enlighten you, but alas, It will probably be that, a waste of time . . .

If buy 1000 lottery tickets, your odds are statistically higher that you will win the CA state lottery than if you dont buy any.

If you walk on a golf course during a lightening event, the chances are statistically higher you will be struck if you are balancing a 100ft steel pole.

If you choose to ride in CA's most dangerous and violent community and bait a violent driver at 1:00am, the chances are statistically higher that you will suffer some undesirable event than if you chose to ride in Davis and visit the Starbucks at 6:00 in the afternoon . . .

Get it ???



Didnt think so.

frantik

Well April 29th was a Monday but even if it were a Friday, i'd still blame the person who grabbed this lady by the neck and dragged her. I'd blame a drunk person if they hit me while if I were riding on the weekend at night too (I ride a pedicab so it's actually pretty common for me to be riding in the middle of a bunch of drunk drivers) But this is a lot different from drunks on a weekend, which is more or less a known risk factor.. this was a random act of a psychopath. It could happen at any time in any city.. the fact it was oakland or at 1am doesn't mean anything.

I do agree that I would recommend getting the fark outta there vs smashing a window, but the victim wasn't even the person who did that..

frantik

I got it the first time. If a crime happens at 1am in Oakland, odds are you'll blame the victim.

turbo1889

I'm often on the road at 1:00 coming home from work late at night, often even later then that. I do agree that escalation although understandable most likely was not the wisest choice of action. At the very least he should have used the U-lock on the driver jumping out not the car itself. Using on the car unless there is no hood and you can hit the distributor cap and smash it or something is only going to make the driver more angry and do absolutely nothing to prevent further aggression on the drivers part. Now if you hit the driver with the U-lock in the right spot hard enough then it certainly can prevent further aggression at least for a time. Kind of hard to run someone over when your out cold.

What I'm saying is if you must use the U-lock then properly apply it in a way that has a substantial chance of neutralizing the threat not just escalating the situation.

-=(8)=-

Not necessarily ---- but odds are, if someone puts a post up in A&S that says a bicycle rider provokes an altercation with a driver and gets the worst of it, and the Hale bop riding OP tries to defend that lunacy, statistically speaking, I probably will

turbo1889

I also agree there is no reason to blame the victim, regardless of when or where, especially since this appears to be a hate crime situation (bicyclist hater) - now if it were the guy with the U-lock who got dragged then there would be some marginal blame on the victims part. Partially for escalating. Partially for not having the sense to make proper use of his weapon in a manner that neutralized the threat and wasn't just retaliation for retaliations sake.

But the guy with the U-lock wasn't who got dragged !!! I could sort of understand it if the driver jumped back in his rig and took off tires smoking and caught up with the U-lock guy and ran him down, but that is not what happened. The driver just turned and attacked the next bicyclist. A hate crime pure and simple, no different then someone a hundred plus years ago adopting an "The only good Indian is a dead Indian" policy and shooting them at random because he got his horse stolen by an Indian once.

frantik

yeah i was thinking the same thing.. if ur gonna smash something.. better to be the dude's face and not his window.

kalliergo 

I suppose this is intended to imply that you think anyone on the street in Oakland at such an hour is "asking for it" or some such thing.

People have a right to use the public streets and highways without being assaulted.

Yes, it certainly sounds like it, doesn't it? Did you mean to imply that it isn't surprising to find such a driver at that place and time? Yeah, it's not.

So what? Surely you don't mean to say that people should just be expected to stay away from places known to pose risks?

If you follow that philosophy, you're going to end up with an awful lot of places where the only occupants are Mad Max loonies, people who can't escape, and cops acting like occupying forces.

Sounds like bad public policy to me.

Yup. These cyclists needed both better foresight and better self-control. They should have had better foresight than to pass the truck after being deliberately buzzed, and the guy should have had better self-control than is indicated by the allegaton that he smashed a window with his lock after having harmless liquid thrown at him.

But they have every right to be where they were when they were, and a society that accepts an alternative reality as "normal" isn't going to stay civilized for long.

-=(8)=-

Excellent discourse for your Philosophy 101 class, but in the real world, the outcome of two people engaging each other with violent actions is exactly what the OP posted.

frantik

LOL.. hale bop.. the 90s called and wants its comet back. But bro. Go read this thread again. I post the article with "be safe out there". You immediate blame the victim. Then you spend the next bunch of posts trying to justify why you blamed the victim. Statically, I expect you to continue to blame the victim. You'll also probably make jabs at me. Statically, I don't expect you to have anything negative to say about the person who ran over a cyclist who did nothing to him.

frantik

LOL.. "in the real world" one person broke the window, and SOMEONE else was attacked. There were more than two people in the story. But hey, don't let things like facts get in the way of blaming the victim.

I also like how you're trying to make it sound like both sides were equally "engaged in violent actions".. again, justifying in your mind why it's ok to blame the victim. Apparently if people try to defend themselves, the initial attacker is then justified in continuing his attack.

turbo1889

Sometimes, yes indeed.

That situation was highly typical of a hate crime directed against a particular segment of the population though. Most fights on the other hand are personal, especially road rage. One guy in car cuts other guy in car off while smerking and giving him the finger. Slighted guy catches up with guy who cut him off and rams his car off the road them jumps out with tire iron and smashes out drivers door window with full intent of beating the other drivers head in with tire iron. Guy rammed off road rams on the gas and manages to avoid getting clobbered by tire iron after the first hit broke the window and then shifts into reverse and backs over the guy with tire iron and then puts the car in forward gear and runs him over again and then flees the scene.

Rarely does one person piss off another person and they take it out on someone else unless that someone else is, or is perceived to be a member of a group that the instigator hates and is just as legitimate of a target for the hatred of the instigator in his warped mind.

Personal fights are understandable, even considered acceptable in certain situations. Mass hatred towards a whole group of people and deliberate pre-mediated attacks based on that hatred are not.