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  1. #26
    incazzare. lostarchitect's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gcottay View Post
    Thank you. After several years I now finally understand this dispute.

    I'm here to help.
    1964 JRJ (Bob Jackson) San Remo Plus, 1989 Trek 520, 2000ish Colian (Colin Laing), 2013 Velo Orange Pass Hunter

  2. #27
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    More quotes from Heine in the comments:

    The main issue here is that poorly designed “protected” bike lanes, cycle tracks, etc., are being installed, designed and planned all over North America.
    Amen.

    Its completely bizarre how few of the cycle tracks in the USA are on high speed arterials or transportation choke points.



    And Mikael Colville-Andersen responds in the comments by posting a link to his off target and misleading screed:

    Cycling’s Secret Sect continues to push their quirky, unproved theory. Always amusing.
    http://www.copenhagenize.com/2010/07...cret-sect.html

    And Heine responds:

    Many of us cover significant distances by bike, and as long as places like Copenhagen push all cyclists onto segregated paths, they aren’t the paradise that many make them out to be. The fact that in Europe, cyclists who are riding considerable distances for transportation basically don’t exist should give us pause.
    Amen again, brother.

    More on the type of "protection" that Heine likes:

    I am not opposed to “protected” bike facilities, if they are truly protected. The Myrtle Edwards Waterfront Trail is a great example – a few miles of separate trails for cyclists and pedestrians, with only one (minor) intersection.
    I agree that a cycling specific trail is a joy to use. High conflict bike sidewalks, not so much. And this is why the USA should look to Munich, not Copenhagen for direction.
    Last edited by spare_wheel; 05-22-13 at 04:37 PM.
    This is why motorists hate us, and why I've given up riding on the road...You should be ashamed yourself, and you should be reviled by cyclists everywhere.

  3. #28
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    More quotes from the comments.

    Heine:

    I am not advocating road design for cars. The advocates of segregated facilities advocate that – give the roads over to cars. That is the vehicular equivalent of apartheid. I advocate road design that considers the needs of all users.
    The misinformation is mostly on the side of those advocating for segregated paths. They still claim that this is safe, despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary – even from places like the Copenhagen.
    This is why motorists hate us, and why I've given up riding on the road...You should be ashamed yourself, and you should be reviled by cyclists everywhere.

  4. #29
    ---- buzzman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    and instead of addressing Jan Heine's blog post you speculate about another commenter in an insulting way.

    I suppose if I wanted to address Jan Heine's blog post I would do so directly on his blog, which I may very well do. My responses here are to this thread and the posts contained herein.

  5. #30
    PatronSaintOfDiscBrakes dynaryder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noglider View Post
    I have learned a lot from my copy of Effective Cycling, but I make my own decisions, not based on ideas of right and wrong but on what appears to work well and not work well.
    Totally OT,but this is why I prefer Hurst. 100% VC is not a good idea in DC.

    C'dale BBU('05 and '09)/Super Six/Hooligan8and 3,Kona Dew Deluxe,Novara Buzz/Safari,Surly Big Dummy,Marin Pt Reyes,Giant Defy 1,Schwinn DBX SuperSport/Qualifier,Dahon Speed Pro TT,Brompton S6L

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by buzzman View Post
    My responses here are to this thread and the posts contained herein.
    I guess you missed the link out and quotes from Jan Heine's blog...

    This is why motorists hate us, and why I've given up riding on the road...You should be ashamed yourself, and you should be reviled by cyclists everywhere.

  7. #32
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    Another Jan Heine quote from the comments:

    My concern is that cycle tracks are becoming the preferred choice in the U.S. everywhere, not just in the (relatively few) locations where they are appropriate.
    Relatively few.
    This is why motorists hate us, and why I've given up riding on the road...You should be ashamed yourself, and you should be reviled by cyclists everywhere.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by dynaryder View Post
    Totally OT,but this is why I prefer Hurst. 100% VC is not a good idea in DC.
    I'm genuinely curious how your cycling improved after reading Hurst.
    This is why motorists hate us, and why I've given up riding on the road...You should be ashamed yourself, and you should be reviled by cyclists everywhere.

  9. #34
    Senior Member kalliergo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    Another Jan Heine quote from the comments:

    Another Jan Heine quote from the comments:

    My concern is that cycle tracks are becoming the preferred choice in the U.S. everywhere, not just in the (relatively few) locations where they are appropriate.


    Relatively few.

    Relatively few.
    Very few. OTOH, I'm not too worried. Has anyone not noticed that there hasn't been any serious new money for projects like cycletrack construction in some time?

    Sharrows are gonna win on performance and cost.

    The Seattle bike ghetto in this thread and the idiotic separated lane in PDX in another thread today are certainly impressive examples of "unclear on the concept," though.
    "What if we fail to stop the erosion of cities by automobiles?. . . In that case, we Americans will hardly need to ponder a mystery that has troubled men for millennia: What is the purpose of life? For us, the answer will be clear, established and for all practical purposes indisputable: The purpose of life is to produce and consume automobiles."

    ~Jane Jacobs, The Death and Life of Great American Cities

  10. #35
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    Has anyone not noticed that there hasn't been any serious new money for projects like cycletrack construction in some time?
    Definitely. In PDX both the new Williams project and the 50s project (both funded) are Munichista bike lanes:

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/bikeportland/7244258628/
    This is why motorists hate us, and why I've given up riding on the road...You should be ashamed yourself, and you should be reviled by cyclists everywhere.

  11. #36
    Senior Member kalliergo's Avatar
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    Not terrible at all, at first glance. But, how do I turn right onto Tillamook, and why won't the drivers think I should stay in the bike lane?

    Edit: Just looked at Google street view. Why does it need a bike lane at all?

    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    Definitely. In PDX both the new Williams project and the 50s project (both funded) are Munichista bike lanes:

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/bikeportland/7244258628/
    Last edited by kalliergo; 05-22-13 at 08:58 PM.
    "What if we fail to stop the erosion of cities by automobiles?. . . In that case, we Americans will hardly need to ponder a mystery that has troubled men for millennia: What is the purpose of life? For us, the answer will be clear, established and for all practical purposes indisputable: The purpose of life is to produce and consume automobiles."

    ~Jane Jacobs, The Death and Life of Great American Cities

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by kalliergo View Post
    Not terrible at all, at first glance. But, how do I turn right onto Tillamook, and why won't the drivers think I should stay in the bike lane?
    They put it on the left side due to bus-bike conflict. Apparently, reconfiguring the bus stops was too expensive/controversial...meh. Since Williams is the epitome of every day critical mass its definitely going to be educational for motorists.
    This is why motorists hate us, and why I've given up riding on the road...You should be ashamed yourself, and you should be reviled by cyclists everywhere.

  13. #38
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    This is reminiscent of Officer Obie's smackdown of the litterers, his

    "twenty seven eight by ten glossy photographs with circles, arrows, and a paragraph on the back of each one explaining what each one was to be used as evidence against us"


    'citations, statistics, and diagrams' oh afeard.
    Last edited by Bekologist; 05-23-13 at 03:51 AM.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by buzzman View Post
    Don't we all "win" when we have the best possible infrastructure?
    The problem comes when the decision is made that one particular type of infrastructure is the correct one for all situations.

    The best infrastructure depends upon the roads, traffic, and the intended users. One I find interesting in my town is we have a section of on street bike lane with a parallel MUP about ten feet away. The MUP gets the kids and slower riders while the faster riders use the bike lane.
    We have met the enemy and they is us.

    Pogo

  15. #40
    Senior Member kalliergo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    They put it on the left side due to bus-bike conflict.
    Ah. And that's probably the justification for the painted lines, to begin with. OK.

    But cyclist right turns still look unattractive.
    "What if we fail to stop the erosion of cities by automobiles?. . . In that case, we Americans will hardly need to ponder a mystery that has troubled men for millennia: What is the purpose of life? For us, the answer will be clear, established and for all practical purposes indisputable: The purpose of life is to produce and consume automobiles."

    ~Jane Jacobs, The Death and Life of Great American Cities

  16. #41
    ---- buzzman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve0257 View Post
    The problem comes when the decision is made that one particular type of infrastructure is the correct one for all situations.

    The best infrastructure depends upon the roads, traffic, and the intended users. One I find interesting in my town is we have a section of on street bike lane with a parallel MUP about ten feet away. The MUP gets the kids and slower riders while the faster riders use the bike lane.
    Yep. Can't argue with you there.

    That's what I meant when I posted-

    Quote Originally Posted by Buzzman
    For me it's refreshing to see that the dialogue has now moved not from "infrastructure" vs "no infrastructure" but to what kinds of infrastructure best serve in specific locations and situations.

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by kalliergo View Post
    Not terrible at all, at first glance. But, how do I turn right onto Tillamook, and why won't the drivers think I should stay in the bike lane?
    Edit: Just looked at Google street view. Why does it need a bike lane at all?
    I agree its a flawed facility but its definitely an example of physically separated infrastructure getting voted down. Progress, IMO.
    This is why motorists hate us, and why I've given up riding on the road...You should be ashamed yourself, and you should be reviled by cyclists everywhere.

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve0257 View Post
    The problem comes when the decision is made that one particular type of infrastructure is the correct one for all situations.

    The best infrastructure depends upon the roads, traffic, and the intended users. One I find interesting in my town is we have a section of on street bike lane with a parallel MUP about ten feet away. The MUP gets the kids and slower riders while the faster riders use the bike lane.
    Check out the sellwood bridge bike facilites:
    sellwood.jpg

    A physically separated bike path AND a green concrete bike lane. Now that is physically separated infrastructure I approve of.

    This is why motorists hate us, and why I've given up riding on the road...You should be ashamed yourself, and you should be reviled by cyclists everywhere.

  19. #44
    Senior Member jputnam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    Can you name a single cycle track in Portland or Seattle that is built on a road with a speed limit in excess of 50 kmh?
    Interstate 90, bidirectional facility separated from 60mph freeway traffic with a concrete wall. Great place for this sort of facility, more than a mile between intersections, excellent sight distances, no pedestrian destinations or bus stops.


    I-90 Bridge, Lake Washington by joshua_putnam, on Flickr


    DSIR2747_swapRB by joshua_putnam, on Flickr
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/jputnam/collections/72157604835074312/

  20. #45
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAN HEINE
    My concern is that cycle tracks are becoming the preferred choice in the U.S. everywhere, not just in the (relatively few) locations where they are appropriate.
    Well, It's clear Jan Heine is into histrionics to frame his 'argument'. He's shouting copenhagenista along with the rest of the crazies on the group W bench.

    thinking there's going to be cycletracks 'everywhere' is quite the contrived thing for Jan to argue against. In any city, cycle tracks will serve the purpose as the backbone of a bike transportation network.

    New York City and Vancouver, BC are examples of urban downtowns that have added a network of cycletracks, that serve as main arteries on their bikeway network in crowded metropolitan North American downtowns.

    Fearmongering there's going to be cycle tracks everywhere is a dupe ruse.

    nothing's going to prevent Jan Heine from riding the shared lane bikeway on nearby Aurora ave N instead of the N Seattle cycle track.

    Except he's hesitant to do so. Jan Heine considers that shared lane bikeway on nearby Aurora Ave "unsafe and unfit for bicycling". IMO - what a hypocrite - Jan Heine comes off sounding like the kind of rider that might NEED a cycletrack or two! Heaven forbid Jan would have to ride his bike to someplace on Bel-Red road over in Bellevue. How would Jan ride to the Performance Bike shop on the Eastside?

    And dont' forget, Jan Heine supports expanding the cycle track network in Seattle. Problem is, given Jan's hesitancy to ride the shared lane bikeway Aurora Ave, his guidance on what and where other bike facilities are going to be needed might not be representative of what the rest of the public needs to facilitate travelling by bike.


    Last edited by Bekologist; 05-23-13 at 06:31 AM.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  21. #46
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve0257
    The best infrastructure depends upon the roads, traffic, and the intended users.
    Quote Originally Posted by buzzman View Post
    Yep. Can't argue with you there.
    Yep. That's what I meant when I consistently post about

    Quote Originally Posted by bekologist
    context sensitive design
    to drive transportation policy in order to promote bicycling and rider safety.

    What kind of infrastructure best serves the most cyclists?

    The tired refrain of the quixotic and contrived cycling rights movement that "every lane is a bike lane" has lost any semblance of resonance in smartly designed US cities in the 21st century.

    Like buzzman mentions, the conversation has rolled inexorably past the 1980's. Except, seemingly, at the halls of bike forums, where acerbic throwbacks to another era continue to insist what's best is simply tossing the cyclists under the wheels of the bus.

    Quote Originally Posted by steve0257
    The problem comes when the decision is made that one particular type of infrastructure is the correct one for all situations.
    NO ONE is making those decisions. The 'one size fits all bike sidewalks everywhere' advocate simply doesn't exist in real life.

    The only place that advocacy happens is in the minds of the fearmongers and obstructionists of better bike planning. These hysteric individuals post in like minded usergroups of the equally deluded elsewhere on the internets.
    Last edited by Bekologist; 05-23-13 at 03:59 AM.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  22. #47
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    So according to danish best practice all roads with a speed limit below 50-60 kmh should have bike lanes or no infrastructure.
    you think that infographic is the definitive danish design manual?

    What an amusing diagram.
    interesting you find 'amusing' a graphic that dispels those phantoms that haunt you of copenhagenistas lurking at every corner turning streets into bike sidewalks.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by jputnam View Post
    Interstate 90, bidirectional facility separated from 60mph freeway traffic with a concrete wall. Great place for this sort of facility, more than a mile between intersections, excellent sight distances, no pedestrian destinations or bus stops.


    I-90 Bridge, Lake Washington by joshua_putnam, on Flickr


    DSIR2747_swapRB by joshua_putnam, on Flickr


    That is a fine facility, indeed. I used to ride it often on my way to wine/beer tasting in woodinville. I have always believed that bridges and narrow choke points with high-speed differential are areas that require some form of separation. My question focused on city streets. This is where there is an emerging battle between the Munichista and Copenhagenista vision. I can't wait for Jan's next installment where he covers the Munich cycling revolution.
    This is why motorists hate us, and why I've given up riding on the road...You should be ashamed yourself, and you should be reviled by cyclists everywhere.

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    Well, It's clear Jan Heine is into histrionics to frame his 'argument'.

    :drink:
    This is why motorists hate us, and why I've given up riding on the road...You should be ashamed yourself, and you should be reviled by cyclists everywhere.

  25. #50
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    This is where there is an emerging battle between the Munichista and Copenhagenista vision.
    what contrived prattle. In your mind and among the conspiracy theorists that think nazis lurk at every corner, taking away cyclists right to get around town on a bicycle.

    I want to know how Jan Heine rides to the Denny's on aurora, Performance bike on the eastside, or anywhere on Bel-Red road if he thinks the shared lane bikeway on aurora Ave is unfit and unsafe for cycling.

    Is Jan Heine forced to take his car because Aurora Ave and Bel-Red road are unfit for cycling? Now, THAT'S being driven off the roads, wouldn't you think?
    Last edited by Bekologist; 05-23-13 at 09:16 AM.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

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