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  1. #76
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    its interesting that you persist in telling us what jan heine believes without once providing a quote (or any context).
    if you were following along in the discussion at Jan's blog instead of just trolling at bike forums about phantoms in the bikeways,you'd know very well Jan Heine endorses context appropriate cycle tracks. in seattle, and wherever they can be executed well. Traffic separation is Jan Heine's 'first choice always' for cyclists if it can be done well.

    Besides, i quoted Jan directly at the last inane post on this topic, his endorsement of specific cycle tracks and traffic separation as the best choice, his traffic trepidations on alternate routes to the cycle track he speciously criticizes- why should I expect you to read them in this thread?
    Last edited by Bekologist; 05-24-13 at 11:45 AM.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    you'd know very well Jan Heine endorses context appropriate cycle tracks
    still no direct quote. since you are not jan heine it would be nice if you could let the man speak for himself instead of trying to "spin".
    This is why motorists hate us, and why I've given up riding on the road...You should be ashamed yourself, and you should be reviled by cyclists everywhere.

  3. #78
    Senior Member jputnam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    That is a fine facility, indeed. I used to ride it often on my way to wine/beer tasting in woodinville. I have always believed that bridges and narrow choke points with high-speed differential are areas that require some form of separation. My question focused on city streets. This is where there is an emerging battle between the Munichista and Copenhagenista vision. I can't wait for Jan's next installment where he covers the Munich cycling revolution.
    This, by the way, agrees with the data in the latest Lusk paper, though Lusk conflates different classes of facilities to arrive at a different conclusion.

    If you look at the individual facilities included in the data, there are two very disparate groups. Urban cycletracks with high intersection density, and suburban sidepaths with low intersection density. The urban facilities, not surprisingly, have higher bicycle accident rates than the average road. But by diluting that result with a much larger mileage of routes with low intersection density, Lusk manages to create data showing lower accident risks for cycletracks in general. The urban cycletracks in Lusk's data have an accident rate around 7 per million km, vs. about 0.6 for the suburban ones. (Sorry, don't have the exact data handy here, was reviewing a rebuttal that's on its way to AJPH.)
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/jputnam/collections/72157604835074312/

  4. #79
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    good thing america doesn't have vast swaths of suburbs! Like Pacific, WA and the surrounding low density sprawl. Im' confident people that live in Pacific would benefit, i mean really benefit, from a cycletrack/path network leading into Tacoma. There's bound to be serious pent up demand due to the lack of rideable roads out in that part of the Cascadia megalopolis.

    -----------------------------

    My speculation to Jan was that decidedly suburban, USA cycletracks may very well be safer than their urban counterparts.

    Studies have shown for 40 years that riding on paths are safer than riding on roads in the USA.

    And the studies aren't even are what it's all about, it's more subjective safety and getting people to ride versus sit on the couch.

    Jan Heine, the timid randonneur, is a great example of a rider that wants subjective safety.

    Jan Heine is a great example of a traffic adverse rider, better served by cycletracks and suburban paths than trying to force these timid riders to share the lane on fast arterial roads.

    - again,

    Jan Heine considers a designated shared lane parallel route to the Bitterlake cycletrack he's so critical of "UNSAFE AND UNFIT FOR BIKING.

    Jan doesn't really want to mix it up with cars, he wants protected routes to ride on! Separated paths are Jan's 'first choice always'. Don't forget he's a proponent of increasing cycletrack lane miles in Seattle.

    Even some in urban settings, that cross a lot of commerical driveways with thousands of cars a day spooling across the cycletrack routes. That's okay with Jan, the traffic conflicts managable and preferable to riding on the street.

    what a hypocrite.

    Q: How does Jan Heine get to the Kmart on Aurora Ave N?
    A: He doesn't; Jan considers the shared lane bike route on the arterial that runs to the store 'unfit and unsafe' for biking.
    Last edited by Bekologist; 05-25-13 at 04:49 AM.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  5. #80
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    I find it interesting that mr. Heine does not mention that I pointed out that the most quoted paper on the net regarding bike path safety does not say what the authors and most other people think. It says the opposite. Another Dane contributing to that thread noticed the same thing. It's all rather remarkable...

    You can find links to the English version several times in the original thread. the Danish version, however, is different. Something must have gone wrong somewhere.

    In mr. Heine's thread, I also quoted a Dutch paper mentioning that bike paths reduced accidents by 50%.

    You can look it up if you care about the truth of the matter. As for me, I'm dead tired of this bull****.
    Last edited by hagen2456; 05-25-13 at 12:13 PM.

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    still no direct quote. since you are not jan heine it would be nice if you could let the man speak for himself instead of trying to "spin".
    You apparently didn't read the whole article, including his own comments below it.

    Dear me, you really are a demagogue.

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by hagen2456 View Post
    You apparently didn't read the whole article, including his own comments below it.
    its interesting that i am the only one on this thread willing to directly quote heine.


    Dear me, you really are a demagogue.
    :drink:
    This is why motorists hate us, and why I've given up riding on the road...You should be ashamed yourself, and you should be reviled by cyclists everywhere.

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by jputnam View Post
    Sorry, don't have the exact data handy here, was reviewing a rebuttal that's on its way to AJPH.
    Looking forward to this rebuttal.
    This is why motorists hate us, and why I've given up riding on the road...You should be ashamed yourself, and you should be reviled by cyclists everywhere.

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    its interesting that i am the only one on this thread willing to directly quote heine.
    Jan Heine, in the comments to his first article on bike paths:

    "I think you misunderstand. I agree that infrastructure can be good, but it needs to be applied with good judgment. What I see here these days is many people advocating for “protected routes” that are anything but. At least in principle, the Dutch system looks a lot better. Part of this may be because the Dutch are willing to take away convenience from car traffic"

    If you did read it, why the heck all the palaver? If you didn't, how can you even start discussing the comments? Now shut up, please, you moron.

  10. #85
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hagen2456 View Post
    Jan Heine, in the comments to his first article on bike paths:

    [I]"I think you misunderstand. I agree that infrastructure can be good, but it needs to be applied with good judgment. What I see here these days is many people advocating for “protected routes” that are anything but. At least in principle, the Dutch system looks a lot better. Part of this may be because the Dutch are willing to take away convenience from car traffic"
    part of Jan's problem with his inchoate and ill-considered 'critique' of cycletracks is that every one of the studies he THINKS shows collisions increase on cycletracks, all the studies he references show a decline in the indexed collision rates for cyclists - that is, the percent of collisions adjusted for ridership decreased, in every 'study' - the european vehicular cyclists? - he mentions.

    Quote Originally Posted by hagen
    I find it interesting that mr. Heine does not mention that I pointed out that the most quoted paper on the net regarding bike path safety does not say what the authors and most other people think. It says the opposite. Another Dane contributing to that thread noticed the same thing. It's all rather remarkable...

    You can find links to the English version several times in the original thread. the Danish version, however, is different. Something must have gone wrong somewhere.
    yeah, somethings rotten allright, and it isn't in Denmark. its in the false framing of Jan's position.it smacks of deliberate propaganda on the part of Jan, against facilities he paradoxically promotes elsewhere in the city.

    To come up with a bona fide position on cycle tracks instead of his "nazis in the woodpile, cycletracks everywhere" strawman army, Jan would have to actually read the studies and understand what they say instead of cherry picking isolated stats that mean the opposite what he claims when adjusted for the increase in ridership.

    Besides which, to criticize a cycletrack, of which the alternate, designated shared lane route Jan finds "unsafe and unfit" for bicycling, is two-faced. It's indicative of the dull timbre of Jan's argument.
    Last edited by Bekologist; 05-26-13 at 08:38 PM.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  11. #86
    Bicikli Huszár sudo bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    :drink:
    Please, be careful! If you stick with this, we're going to have to take you to the hospital at some point.
    "The bicycle is the noblest invention of mankind. I love the bicycle. I always have. I can think of no sincere, decent human being, male or female, young or old, saint or sinner, who can resist the bicycle."

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  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by hagen2456 View Post
    "I think you misunderstand. I agree that infrastructure can be good, but it needs to be applied with good judgment. What I see here these days is many people advocating for “protected routes” that are anything but. At least in principle, the Dutch system looks a lot better. Part of this may be because the Dutch are willing to take away convenience from car traffic"

    [bold by spare_wheel]

    and the contrast between that quote and mr. bekologist's disingenuous ventriloquism is quite clear.
    Now shut up, please, you moron.
    :drink:
    Last edited by CbadRider; 05-27-13 at 06:41 PM. Reason: Corrected username
    This is why motorists hate us, and why I've given up riding on the road...You should be ashamed yourself, and you should be reviled by cyclists everywhere.

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudo bike View Post
    Please, be careful! If you stick with this, we're going to have to take you to the hospital at some point.
    Very good point. I am now switching to green chia seed smoothies.
    This is why motorists hate us, and why I've given up riding on the road...You should be ashamed yourself, and you should be reviled by cyclists everywhere.

  14. #89
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    show a decline in the indexed collision rates for cyclists - that is, the percent of collisions adjusted for ridership decreased, in every 'study' - the european vehicular cyclists? - he mentions.
    ok, mr. bekologist. i will bite. please pick one study and we will dissect it here in this public forum.

    "nazis in the woodpile, cycletracks everywhere"
    :slurp:
    Last edited by CbadRider; 05-27-13 at 06:41 PM. Reason: Corrected username
    This is why motorists hate us, and why I've given up riding on the road...You should be ashamed yourself, and you should be reviled by cyclists everywhere.

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    and the contrast between that quote and mr. bekologist's disingenuous ventriloquism is quite clear.
    [I]
    Only to someone who is consumed with hatred for bike paths, it seems.
    Last edited by CbadRider; 05-27-13 at 06:43 PM. Reason: Edited quoted post

  16. #91
    Senior Member dynodonn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    Very good point. I am now switching to green chia seed smoothies.


    Damn, a little late getting into this thread, and here I was hoping that you had a stockpile of microbrew ready for others to join you.

  17. #92
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    Im' going to have to reiterate:

    Jan Heine is posting propaganda, and not even bothering to read the studies he thinks show a degradation of cyclist safety. The traffictek document shows an increase in crashes, but a greater increase in ridership

    This means the indexed collision rate declined. cycling got safer on the danish cycletracks studied, disproving Jan's claims. Hagen also mentions this about the safety studies.

    And, Jan paradoxically endorses cycletracks in urban settings if designed well. That 'if designed well' bit should make spare wheel feel better- maybe.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  18. #93
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    The traffictek document shows an increase in crashes, but a greater increase in ridership
    First of all, you are apparently referring to a summary statement that does not contain methodology or detailed description of statistical methodologies. The actual publication did account for changes in volume and still reported an increase in accidents and injuries.

    http://trafitec.dk/sites/default/fil...nd%20lanes.pdf

    First, a general comparison group is used to
    account for crash trends. Second, changes in traffic volumes are taken into account. And
    third, an analysis of long-term crash trends is made in order to check for abnormally high or
    low crash counts, i.e. regression-to-the-mean, in the before period.
    If corrections for traffic volumes were not done at all, the expected number of crashes
    and injuries in the after period on the roads, where bicycle tracks were constructed, would be
    2,758 and 875, respectively.
    The comparable figures found when corrections for traffic
    volumes were done, see Table 3, are 2-4 percent lower. This means that corrections for traffic
    volumes result in a small worsening of the overall safety effect, i.e. the effect would be about
    6 percent instead of about 10 percent as shown in Table 3.
    And the stunning conclusion:

    The weighted means or best estimates for safety effects of bicycle tracks in urban
    areas are an increase of about 10 percent in crashes and injuries. This is due to a large
    increase of 18 percent in intersections
    , which more than outweigh a small reduction on road
    links between intersections. Pedestrians, bicyclists and moped riders safety at intersections
    are significantly worsened
    .
    This should not be surprising since this observation is a recurring theme in all large studies of physically separated infrastructure. As noted by Heine it also matches results from additional Danish studies as well as German Cycling Federation studies of German and Dutch data.
    Last edited by spare_wheel; 05-27-13 at 06:15 PM.
    This is why motorists hate us, and why I've given up riding on the road...You should be ashamed yourself, and you should be reviled by cyclists everywhere.

  19. #94
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    good grief.

    the figures, adjusted for ridership, show declines in the collision rate.

    it's right in the abstract. crashes up, ridership up more.

    Quote Originally Posted by traffictek
    The safety effects of bicycle tracks
    in urban areas are an increase of about 10 percent in both crashes and injuries. The safety
    effects of bicycle lanes in urban areas are an increase of 5 percent in crashes and 15 percent
    in injuries. Bicyclists’ safety has worsened on roads, where bicycle facilities have been
    implemented. Design of bicycle facilities and parking conditions for motor vehicles clearly
    seems to have safety implications, especially at intersections. The study has revealed a few
    points in relation to this. Construction of bicycle tracks resulted in a 20 percent increase in
    bicycle / moped traffic mileage
    .
    That's what's called a declining collision rate for cyclists.

    Not to mention, a major confounding factors for cyclists in copenhagen are the mopeds zipping along in the bikelanes.

    How doltish.

    not sure why the bike facilitation venom is so strong makes cyclists blind to what studies actually say.

    and Jan heine is willing to propagate his specious, or duplicitous, claims. i'd think, for a guy claiming to be a researcher or scientist of whatever Jan thinks he is, he could at least use some studies that prove what he claims!

    bizzare. this entire "copenhagenistas, all roads cycletracks and taking away cyclists right to ride."

    It's a perverted, quixotic fear, yet all in vogue among the walter mitty cycling club.
    Last edited by Bekologist; 05-27-13 at 06:35 PM.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  20. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    it's right in the abstract. crashes up, ridership up more.
    you are quoting a summary statement prepared for the city of copenhagen not a peer reviewed manuscript. lets stick to manuscripts with data and detailed statistical methodology, please.

    That's what's called a declining collision rate for cyclists.
    the authors did not write this. to demonstrate this the authors would need a statistical model that takes into account the two unrelated variables (injury accidents and traffic flows) at bike lanes versus cycle tracks. your willingness to extrapolate in this simple fashion betrays you innumeracy.

    now how about addressing the actual manuscript from trafitek instead of the presser/summary statement. you know, mr. beck, the one that i quoted above and again below:

    "Pedestrians, bicyclists and moped riders safety at intersections are significantly worsened."




    How doltish.
    :slurp:


    propagate his specious, or duplicitous, claims.
    :slurp:



    It's a perverted, quixotic fear, yet all in vogue among the walter mitty cycling club.
    :slurp:

    awww...screw this green chia seed crap...

    :drink:
    Last edited by spare_wheel; 05-27-13 at 07:25 PM.
    This is why motorists hate us, and why I've given up riding on the road...You should be ashamed yourself, and you should be reviled by cyclists everywhere.

  21. #96
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    ..if you can't read and understand what the studies actually say, i'm not going to be any help to you. I'd refer you to what is commonly called an 'abstract' to distill the basic findings of the study.

    crashes up, ridership up more, resulting in a declining indexed collision rate.

    It's really that simple.

    --------------


    I love Jan Heine's ideas for cycletracks in commercial urban districts. Wait- that sounds like what New York City is doing!!!!

    egads, Jan has outed himself. food-smiley-012.gif
    Last edited by Bekologist; 05-27-13 at 07:56 PM.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  22. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    ..if you can't read and understand what the studies actually say, i'm not going to be any help to you. I'd refer you to what is commonly called an 'abstract' to distill the basic findings of the study.
    you are not quoting a published study; rather, you are quoting a summary of a study in progress prepared for the municipality of copenhagen. moreover, its not at all clear that the numbers provided were uncorrected because there is no description of statistical methodology in this summary. let me repeat: you are simply assuming that the numbers are uncorrected.

    the actual published study by soren jensen of trafitec can be found here:

    http://trafitec.dk/sites/default/fil...nd%20lanes.pdf

    this published study explicitly corrects for traffic volume.
    Last edited by spare_wheel; 05-28-13 at 10:27 AM.
    This is why motorists hate us, and why I've given up riding on the road...You should be ashamed yourself, and you should be reviled by cyclists everywhere.

  23. #98
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    Yes, the traffictek study.... that's the one the abstract is from that i'm quoting.

    you do know what an 'abstract' is, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by the same study spare wheel is fixated on
    The safety effects of bicycle tracks
    in urban areas are an increase of about 10 percent in both crashes and injuries.The safety
    effects of bicycle lanes in urban areas are an increase of 5 percent in crashes and 15 percent
    in injuries. Bicyclists’ safety has worsened on roads, where bicycle facilities have been
    implemented. Design of bicycle facilities and parking conditions for motor vehicles clearly
    seems to have safety implications, especially at intersections. The study has revealed a few
    points in relation to this. Construction of bicycle tracks resulted in a 20 percent increase in
    bicycle / moped traffic mileage.
    a declining indexed crash rate. the cycling is getting safer on the cycle track routes. and ridership is up, significantly, compared to the bikelane routes, 28 percent vs 5 percent. Riders FLOCK to protected routes in big cities.

    you want to know what's funny, spare wheel? the study also shows that collision and injury rates for danish "Bike lanes" - which in the USA would be called buffered or even floating parking bike lanes - the crash rate stayed flat adjusted for ridership.

    Only on the cycle tracks did the indexed crash rate decline.

    But youre right, you win.

    Jan Heine's vision of considerate cycle tracks in built up commercial urban areas, and wherever they can be done well, is his 'first choice always' for cyclists.

    Seeing Jan's obtuse read of the Danish cycling studies, i can see where Jan Heine may not even realize he's a proponent of cycle tracks serving as the backbone of a cycling network.

    I'd still love to know how Jan Heine gets to the Kmart on Aurora, given his assessment of Aurora Ave N - a designated and signed alternate route to the bitter lake cycle track consisting of a moderate, shared lane "bus bike and rto" bikeway - is unsafe and unfit to ride in.

    Boy, this smackdown is more like a febrile fight of one, watching Jan Heine paint himself over in a corner with his commentary at his blog.

    smackdown of one in a wet paper bag! take that, wiley copenhagenistas, conspiring to put cycletracks on every street in america
    Last edited by Bekologist; 05-27-13 at 09:22 PM.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  24. #99
    Bicikli Huszár sudo bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    Boy, this smackdown is [...]
    FWIW, I find it immensely entertaining.
    "The bicycle is the noblest invention of mankind. I love the bicycle. I always have. I can think of no sincere, decent human being, male or female, young or old, saint or sinner, who can resist the bicycle."

    - William Saroyan

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    Hembrow took the time to break down the numbers and puncture some of the hot air ballons:

    http://www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com...lists-and.html

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