Advertise on Bikeforums.net



User Tag List

Page 1 of 6 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 132
  1. #1
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    pdx
    My Bikes
    2007 carpe diem frame custom build, trek 7.9 frame custom build, custom built chinese carbon fiber road bike, shopping bike
    Posts
    2,635
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Jan Heine copenhagenista smack down II (with citations, statistics, and diagrams)

    http://janheine.wordpress.com/2013/0...ths-a-summary/

    Separate paths are less safe: Numerous people posted links to safety studies. There appears to be general agreement that separated cycle paths are less safe at intersections. Data from Berlin and Denmark show a marked increase of cyclist (and pedestrian) injuries at intersections after cycle paths were put in. (The results were adjusted for the increase in ridership.) The graphic above shows the relative risks for cyclists depending on where they are traveling.
    Even Dutch data shows that injury trips to hospitals are more common on physically separated paths.


    The graphic above shows the relative risks for cyclists depending on where they are traveling. The most dangerous path is on the wrong side of the street. The safest is on the street.
    The safest is on the street == DZfree bike lane.

    Where a car driver can go straight, the cyclist has to make a right, a left, another left and finally a right turn to negotiate the intersection. And if the cyclist wants to turn left, she has to wait an extra light cycle, since she has to cross two traffic lights instead of one. For short bike trips, which predominate in the Netherlands, this is not a problem, but efficiency is key to making cycling a suitable alternative for the longer commutes that prevail in the U. S.
    Bingo. Slow downs and needless meandering are a feature not a bug to the copenhagenistas.

    Munich, the largest city in southern Germany, is installing on-street bike lanes and signs that legitimize cycling on the street (above), even where there are separate paths. This approach has been successful: Cycling has increased by 70% in the last nine years.
    Cycling mode share in Munich:

    1996: 6%
    2011: 17.4%



    I will examine whether Munich’s model may provide a better way forward for North American cities. It’s time to look at the data to see what works and what is safe.
    I wonder if Mikael Colville-Andersen considers Munich to be world class.
    Last edited by spare_wheel; 05-22-13 at 09:12 AM.
    Road rash is a precious gift. Road rash is your friend. Bask in it, appreciate it, love it. Above all, learn from it. --Robert Hurst

  2. #2
    incazzare. lostarchitect's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Brooklyn, NY
    My Bikes
    See sig
    Posts
    4,154
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    1964 JRJ (Bob Jackson) San Remo Plus, 1989 Trek 520, 2000ish Colian (Colin Laing), 2013 Velo Orange Pass Hunter

  3. #3
    Senior Member GP's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    7,128
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    I wonder if Mikael Colville-Andersen considers Munich to be world class.
    #11. http://www.businessinsider.com/the-w...es-2013-4?op=1

  4. #4
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Burlington Iowa
    My Bikes
    Vaterland and Ragazzi
    Posts
    19,719
    Mentioned
    7 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by lostarchitect View Post
    Purrfect, Meow!

  5. #5
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    pdx
    My Bikes
    2007 carpe diem frame custom build, trek 7.9 frame custom build, custom built chinese carbon fiber road bike, shopping bike
    Posts
    2,635
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Reclaiming space from cars and badly redistributing it to bicycle users in the form of modern cycle tracks is the next big move for the city. The creation of a world-beating bicycle infrastructure network. Nothing less.

    Nothing less?
    Eh?

    I guess despite Munich's demonstration that non-world class bike lanes can lead to 20% mode share, it still has a way to go before it can replicate the glorious declines in cycling seen in a world-class cycling city:

    http://www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com...-in-world.html
    http://www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com...openhagen.html
    Last edited by spare_wheel; 05-22-13 at 11:28 AM.
    Road rash is a precious gift. Road rash is your friend. Bask in it, appreciate it, love it. Above all, learn from it. --Robert Hurst

  6. #6
    Senior Member kalliergo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    SF Bay
    My Bikes
    Trek Valencia+, Dutch cargo bike, Karate Monkey, etc.
    Posts
    708
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Only people who have already totally screwed up their city streets, by creating automobile-priority infrastructure and rules, think they have to solve the "problem" of cycling by creating scenes like this.

    That includes most of the overdeveloped Western world, of course. But it's not the only choice.

    Some people live like this, for instance.

    And others like this.

    If we're lucky, more people will live in ways like those in the near-ish future. Or maybe rich people will hire poor people to push their cars when the gas runs out. "Americans love their cars."
    "What if we fail to stop the erosion of cities by automobiles?. . . In that case, we Americans will hardly need to ponder a mystery that has troubled men for millennia: What is the purpose of life? For us, the answer will be clear, established and for all practical purposes indisputable: The purpose of life is to produce and consume automobiles."

    ~Jane Jacobs, The Death and Life of Great American Cities

  7. #7
    ---- buzzman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Newton, MA
    Posts
    4,550
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I actually think Jan Heine is making some good responsible observations, which are open for discussion and interpretation and not yet, IMO, quite enough information to form hard and fast conclusions. And he doesn't just critique but offers some solutions and does so without an overt bias or in an overly contentious way.

    In fact, he starts the article with this phrase:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jan Heine
    I was surprised by the number of comments (more than 260), but even more about how much agreement there is between the proponents and opponents of separating cars and bikes.
    Which is why it is so unfortunate when the dialogue gets inflamed by terms like "Copenhagenistas"- a term Mr. Heine never uses. Or "smack down".

    What is that need to immediately polarize the discussion?

    Don't we all "win" when we have the best possible infrastructure?

  8. #8
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Burlington Iowa
    My Bikes
    Vaterland and Ragazzi
    Posts
    19,719
    Mentioned
    7 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by buzzman View Post
    Which is why it is so unfortunate when the dialogue gets inflamed by terms like "Copenhagenistas"- a term Mr. Heine never uses. Or "smack down".

    What is that need to immediately polarize the discussion?
    Hysterical rhetoric is good bait.

  9. #9
    aka Tom Reingold noglider's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    West Village, New York City
    My Bikes
    too many
    Posts
    18,807
    Mentioned
    45 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    buzzman, are you sure you're from New York? Some people aren't comfortable unless a discussion is contentious.
    Please email me rather than sending me a private message. My address is noglider@pobox.com

    Tom Reingold
    Residences: West Village, New York City and High Falls, NY
    Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog

  10. #10
    ---- buzzman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Newton, MA
    Posts
    4,550
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
    Hysterical rhetoric is good bait.

    You're right. If your intention is getting attention on the internet it's effective. If you actually want to accomplish something maybe not so much.


    For me it's refreshing to see that the dialogue has now moved not from "infrastructure" vs "no infrastructure" but to what kinds of infrastructure best serve in specific locations and situations.

  11. #11
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    A land that time forgot
    My Bikes
    the ever shifting stable loaded with comfortable road bikes and city and winter bikes
    Posts
    18,026
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Despite spare wheels ardent and unremitting misframing of the state of bicycling advocacy,

    even his so called phantom group of "copenhagenistas" call for a variety of infrastructure that supports cycling,including shared lane use and bike lanes adjacent to the main travel lanes, in addition to cycle tracks and paths.

    copenhagenista.jpg



    This is such a contrived argument, with no merit. Jan Heine supports cycle tracks in well considered placements in Seattle as superior to bikelanes adjacent to the main roadway - he states full separation would be his "First choice always" if it is well considered for cycling.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  12. #12
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    4,069
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by buzzman View Post
    I actually think Jan Heine is making some good responsible observations, which are open for discussion and interpretation and not yet, IMO, quite enough information to form hard and fast conclusions. And he doesn't just critique but offers some solutions and does so without an overt bias or in an overly contentious way.

    In fact, he starts the article with this phrase:



    Which is why it is so unfortunate when the dialogue gets inflamed by terms like "Copenhagenistas"- a term Mr. Heine never uses. Or "smack down".

    What is that need to immediately polarize the discussion?

    Don't we all "win" when we have the best possible infrastructure?
    So the discussion turns on what is meant by "best possible infrastructure". Frankly, I find the Dutch requirement that I swerve left in front of a right turning car particularly reprehensible. That's just another unpleasantly dangerous result of the false policy of keeping cyclists out of traffic. It's like telling lies; the first lie requires further lies to bolster it, and so on. Start destroying the way that traffic flows normally, and you get led into further and further dangerous complications.

  13. #13
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    A land that time forgot
    My Bikes
    the ever shifting stable loaded with comfortable road bikes and city and winter bikes
    Posts
    18,026
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by John Forester View Post
    So the discussion turns on what is meant by "best possible infrastructure". Frankly, I find the Dutch requirement that I swerve left in front of a right turning car particularly reprehensible. That's just another unpleasantly dangerous result of the false policy of keeping cyclists out of traffic. It's like telling lies; the first lie requires further lies to bolster it, and so on.


    THAT'S rich, John. Abrupt, unsignallized swerving in front of traffic to make left turns is part of your published (sic) "effective" cycling techinque! Your methods of changing lanes call for swerving between the lane lines, never getting in front of faster traffic. Appalling cycling method you saw fit to print in your book.

    It's pretty lowbrow, and terribly inaccurate, to foist that horrendous cycling technique on the quite responsible, aware and trained Dutch cyclists.
    Last edited by Bekologist; 05-22-13 at 01:39 PM.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  14. #14
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    pdx
    My Bikes
    2007 carpe diem frame custom build, trek 7.9 frame custom build, custom built chinese carbon fiber road bike, shopping bike
    Posts
    2,635
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by buzzman View Post
    Which is why it is so unfortunate when the dialogue gets inflamed by terms like "Copenhagenistas"- a term Mr. Heine never uses. Or "smack down".
    I still believe that copenhagenista is a reasonable term to describe those who promote copenhagen-style infrastructure. I would be happy to be called a Munichista. I have absolutely no idea why you find if offensive.

    smack down
    A common internet colloquialism to describe internet debate is hardly polarizing.

    Don't we all "win" when we have the best possible infrastructure?
    There are deep disagreements about what is "best".
    Road rash is a precious gift. Road rash is your friend. Bask in it, appreciate it, love it. Above all, learn from it. --Robert Hurst

  15. #15
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    pdx
    My Bikes
    2007 carpe diem frame custom build, trek 7.9 frame custom build, custom built chinese carbon fiber road bike, shopping bike
    Posts
    2,635
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    Despite spare wheels ardent and unremitting misframing of the state of bicycling advocacy,

    even his so called phantom group of "copenhagenistas" call for a variety of infrastructure that supports cycling,including shared lane use and bike lanes adjacent to the main travel lanes, in addition to cycle tracks and paths.

    copenhagenista.jpg

    So according to danish best practice all roads with a speed limit below 50-60 kmh should have bike lanes or no infrastructure. Can you name a single cycle track in Portland or Seattle that is built on a road with a speed limit in excess of 50 kmh? What an amusing diagram.


    This is such a contrived argument, with no merit.
    Its fascinating to see you be so dismissive without even making a single attempt to address arguments put forth by Jan Heine in the above blog post.
    Last edited by spare_wheel; 05-22-13 at 02:53 PM.
    Road rash is a precious gift. Road rash is your friend. Bask in it, appreciate it, love it. Above all, learn from it. --Robert Hurst

  16. #16
    Senior Member bikemig's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Middle Earth
    My Bikes
    A lot of old bikes and a few new ones
    Posts
    3,666
    Mentioned
    9 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Signing on to this thread to watch the fur fly:

    eating popcorn.gif

  17. #17
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    pdx
    My Bikes
    2007 carpe diem frame custom build, trek 7.9 frame custom build, custom built chinese carbon fiber road bike, shopping bike
    Posts
    2,635
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
    Hysterical rhetoric is good bait.
    Attacking the person instead of the argument. I've noticed you do this a lot.
    Road rash is a precious gift. Road rash is your friend. Bask in it, appreciate it, love it. Above all, learn from it. --Robert Hurst

  18. #18
    aka Tom Reingold noglider's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    West Village, New York City
    My Bikes
    too many
    Posts
    18,807
    Mentioned
    45 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    OY!

    I'm a cycling activist. I believe that if more people rode bikes, there would be more happiness in the world.

    This contentious style of debate doesn't appear to be aiming for happiness for anyone.

    I know the pluses and minuses of bike lanes and similar things. I encourage people to get on their bikes. It's easier to do it one at a time than convincing government to do anything. And I have done the latter, successfully.
    Please email me rather than sending me a private message. My address is noglider@pobox.com

    Tom Reingold
    Residences: West Village, New York City and High Falls, NY
    Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog

  19. #19
    ---- buzzman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Newton, MA
    Posts
    4,550
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by John Forester View Post
    So the discussion turns on what is meant by "best possible infrastructure". Frankly, I find the Dutch requirement that I swerve left in front of a right turning car particularly reprehensible. That's just another unpleasantly dangerous result of the false policy of keeping cyclists out of traffic. It's like telling lies; the first lie requires further lies to bolster it, and so on. Start destroying the way that traffic flows normally, and you get led into further and further dangerous complications.
    Is it just me or is this use of language tending towards a kind of hysteria?

  20. #20
    aka Tom Reingold noglider's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    West Village, New York City
    My Bikes
    too many
    Posts
    18,807
    Mentioned
    45 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    buzzman, John Forester is the author of a lot of cycling literature. I'm honored to have him here, but yes, his language is pretty absolutist. I have learned a lot from my copy of Effective Cycling, but I make my own decisions, not based on ideas of right and wrong but on what appears to work well and not work well.
    Please email me rather than sending me a private message. My address is noglider@pobox.com

    Tom Reingold
    Residences: West Village, New York City and High Falls, NY
    Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog

  21. #21
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    pdx
    My Bikes
    2007 carpe diem frame custom build, trek 7.9 frame custom build, custom built chinese carbon fiber road bike, shopping bike
    Posts
    2,635
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by buzzman View Post
    Is it just me or is this use of language tending towards a kind of hysteria?
    and instead of addressing Jan Heine's blog post you speculate about another commenter in an insulting way.
    Road rash is a precious gift. Road rash is your friend. Bask in it, appreciate it, love it. Above all, learn from it. --Robert Hurst

  22. #22
    Senior Member kalliergo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    SF Bay
    My Bikes
    Trek Valencia+, Dutch cargo bike, Karate Monkey, etc.
    Posts
    708
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by buzzman View Post
    Is it just me or is this use of language tending towards a kind of hysteria?
    No. John is not even remotely hysterical. He is stubborn, unyielding, pissy, and annoying. He is one of the great contributors to modern cycling and a pain in the butt.

    He's John being John. It's really pointless to over-dramatize the situation. Picking personal fights with Forester, or pursuing them, or encouraging them, is truly counterproductive.
    "What if we fail to stop the erosion of cities by automobiles?. . . In that case, we Americans will hardly need to ponder a mystery that has troubled men for millennia: What is the purpose of life? For us, the answer will be clear, established and for all practical purposes indisputable: The purpose of life is to produce and consume automobiles."

    ~Jane Jacobs, The Death and Life of Great American Cities

  23. #23
    Senior Member gcottay's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Green Valley AZ
    My Bikes
    Trice Q; Volae Century; TT 3.4
    Posts
    3,772
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by lostarchitect View Post
    Thank you. After several years I now finally understand this dispute.
    George
    Laissez les bon temps rouler

  24. #24
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Burlington Iowa
    My Bikes
    Vaterland and Ragazzi
    Posts
    19,719
    Mentioned
    7 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by buzzman View Post
    Is it just me or is this use of language tending towards a kind of hysteria?
    It isn't just you. Though pointing it out sometimes gets the offending party to flap his angel wings in protest.

  25. #25
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    pdx
    My Bikes
    2007 carpe diem frame custom build, trek 7.9 frame custom build, custom built chinese carbon fiber road bike, shopping bike
    Posts
    2,635
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    It isn't just you. Though pointing it out sometimes gets the offending party to flap his angel wings in protest.
    ILTB has 3 comments on this thread and not one of them addresses Jan Heine's blog post.

    PS: I am going to drink every time someone posts the word hysteria.
    Road rash is a precious gift. Road rash is your friend. Bask in it, appreciate it, love it. Above all, learn from it. --Robert Hurst

Page 1 of 6 123 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •