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  1. #51
    Senior Member kalliergo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by volosong View Post
    There are not too many of us who would not want to pass on the right to go around left-turning traffic.
    Yup. And it's usually perfectly legal, including, probably, at the spot where Joey nearly got clobbered.

    I really like those strobes. Be careful out there.
    "What if we fail to stop the erosion of cities by automobiles?. . . In that case, we Americans will hardly need to ponder a mystery that has troubled men for millennia: What is the purpose of life? For us, the answer will be clear, established and for all practical purposes indisputable: The purpose of life is to produce and consume automobiles."

    ~Jane Jacobs, The Death and Life of Great American Cities

  2. #52
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    It's usually not legal for motor vehicle drivers to cross the fog line to pass on the right (I believe TX is one exception).
    Last edited by njkayaker; 05-25-13 at 06:21 AM.

  3. #53
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    not only that, if the white van wasn't parked in the first photo, a motorist could easily try to pass a left turner.

    I'm surprised this humdrum traffic danger threw Joey for a loop to the degree he wanted to post about it here. It's really an inditement of poor situational awareness, regardless of the stripes on the road.

    It's really a no-brainer - watch out approaching a line of cars with a left turner at the front of the line.

    Be doubly cautious, especially so, if there's enough room for the stopped cars to try to get around.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  4. #54
    20+mph Commuter JoeyBike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kalliergo View Post
    New Orleans is on my list...Another prime location to start de-prioritizing auto traffic.
    Auto traffic is de-prioritizing itself in NOLA. Any major event such as a Superbowl or Final Four in town completely shuts down about 50 square blocks (not huge NYC type blocks) to auto traffic. Locals and folks parking cars at hotels inside this grid get a pass as do delivery drivers very early a.m. but casual driving around is shut down all through the event. Otherwise, during morning and evening rush hour things get pretty ugly, especially if something goes wrong, like one traffic signal failing.
    "For all we know his skills may be excellent, allowing him to ride like an idiot without actually being one." - FBinNY

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    not only that, if the white van wasn't parked in the first photo, a motorist could easily try to pass a left turner.

    I'm surprised this humdrum traffic danger threw Joey for a loop to the degree he wanted to post about it here. It's really an inditement of poor situational awareness, regardless of the stripes on the road.

    It's really a no-brainer - watch out approaching a line of cars with a left turner at the front of the line.

    Be doubly cautious, especially so, if there's enough room for the stopped cars to try to get around.
    If you're surprised, then you haven't been watching enough of Joey's videos. In order to do what he does, he has to assess what's going on rather quickly and can't always double-check. That leaves him vulnerable to a motorist who sends one signal, like initiating a stop behind a left-turning vehicle, who then suddenly changes his mind. It's not like Joey ignored the possibility of a car pulling into the bike lane; he checked and was given one signal that turned out to be wrong when the motorist changed his/her mind.

  6. #56
    20+mph Commuter JoeyBike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    It's really an inditement of poor situational awareness, regardless of the stripes on the road.
    No, it's really an indictment of MOMENTARY poor situational awareness. This could happen to anyone, especially any of the hordes of newbies who are now biking in NOLA due to all of the new cycling features springing up all over. If it almost got me, God help the rest of them. I think the newly painted stripes invite cars to pass on the right - something that was not possible (or very unlikely) at that intersection for a hundred years previous. There was never 30 seconds when those old parking places were left empty which effectively kept the stream of traffic corralled into one neat line.

    It's obvious looking at the photos that I rolled into a trap and could have done any number of things better.

    I'm surprised this humdrum traffic danger threw Joey for a loop to the degree he wanted to post about it here.
    I am surprised you took the time to comment on my humdrum experience. The point is, this is a "bike safety" forum. My actions - and knowledge of the design of that bit of roadway - might save someone else reading this, who may be considering commuting by bicycle from making the same mistake I made. And any time a BFer almost gets maimed for whatever reason, I hope they push aside any pride and post about it here so others may either learn, or become inspired to take it easy for a few days.

    Ask any dead Hollywood stuntman how they died. It wasn't some complicated stunt that killed them but some humdrum no-brainer that gets them.
    Last edited by JoeyBike; 05-24-13 at 09:16 PM.
    "For all we know his skills may be excellent, allowing him to ride like an idiot without actually being one." - FBinNY

  7. #57
    20+mph Commuter JoeyBike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by B. Carfree View Post
    If you're surprised, then you haven't been watching enough of Joey's videos.
    There is the irony. Everyone expects me to crash and burn blasting through an 8-lane highway against a red light. But I was just minding my own business tooling along in a bike lane about to proceed through a green light. My awareness may have lapsed as Bek keeps railing me about, but I wasn't doing anything "wrong" out there. Just putting along in the bike lane when a "piano" almost falls on me.
    "For all we know his skills may be excellent, allowing him to ride like an idiot without actually being one." - FBinNY

  8. #58
    Senior Member kalliergo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
    It's usually not legal for motor vehicle drivers to cross the fog line to pass on the right (TX is one exception).
    Lots of exceptions in various places. Here's the current California provision:

    Passing on the Right

    CVC 21754. The driver of a vehicle may overtake and pass to the right of another vehicle only under the following conditions:


    (a) When the vehicle overtaken is making or about to make a left turn.

    (b) Upon a highway within a business or residence district with unobstructed pavement of sufficient width for two or more lines of moving vehicles in the direction of travel.

    (c) Upon any highway outside of a business or residence district with unobstructed pavement of sufficient width and clearly marked for two or more lines of moving traffic in the direction of travel.

    (d) Upon a one-way street.

    (e) Upon a highway divided into two roadways where traffic is restricted to one direction upon each of such roadways.

    In Louisiana:

    A. The driver of a vehicle may overtake and pass upon the right of another vehicle only under the following conditions:


    (1) When the vehicle overtaken is making or about to make a left turn;

    (2) Upon a one-way street, or upon a highway on which traffic is restricted to one direction of movement, where the highway is free from obstructions and of sufficient width for two or more lines of moving vehicles;

    (3) Upon multiple-lane highways.


    B. The driver of a vehicle may overtake and pass another vehicle upon the right only under conditions permitting such movement in safety. In no event shall such movement be made by driving off the pavement or main traveled portion of the highway.

    Acts 1962, No. 310, §1.
    Note that Louisiana, but not California, prohibits leaving the pavement or traveled portion. Joey's close encounter was with a driver who might well have been making a legal move, except that he forgot the part about safe conditions. . .
    "What if we fail to stop the erosion of cities by automobiles?. . . In that case, we Americans will hardly need to ponder a mystery that has troubled men for millennia: What is the purpose of life? For us, the answer will be clear, established and for all practical purposes indisputable: The purpose of life is to produce and consume automobiles."

    ~Jane Jacobs, The Death and Life of Great American Cities

  9. #59
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by B. Carfree View Post
    If you're surprised, then you haven't been watching enough of Joey's videos. In order to do what he does, he has to assess what's going on rather quickly and can't always double-check. That leaves him vulnerable to a motorist who sends one signal, like initiating a stop behind a left-turning vehicle, who then suddenly changes his mind. It's not like Joey ignored the possibility of a car pulling into the bike lane; he checked and was given one signal that turned out to be wrong when the motorist changed his/her mind.
    spare me; Joey tried to pass a vehicle behind a left turner with room for that driver to move right and pass- a place to watch out for, no matter the stripes on a road. i'd be confident this happens more on roads without bikelanes than with, and for Joey to pass the buck onto the pavement markings - which the driver may not have been even able to see - shrouds where the danger multiplier resides in this scenario.

    That same bikelane has probably been used by Joey to his great advantage passing stopped cars - just got to watch the intersections, no matter the stripes.

    A rider must always be on guard anytime they're attempting to pass a vehicle and there's room for that vehicle to occupy the same space.

    -Any traffic jammer knows this.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    spare me; Joey tried to pass a vehicle behind a left turner with room for that driver to move right and pass- a place to watch out for, no matter the stripes on a road. i'd be confident this happens more on roads without bikelanes than with, and for Joey to pass the buck onto the pavement markings - which the driver may not have been even able to see - shrouds where the danger multiplier resides in this scenario...
    Be fair, Bek. Joey has totally owned what mistakes he made here. The bike lane was just a feature that was present. The only "blame" he laid on it was really laid on the removal of the parking places as it approaches the intersection.

  11. #61
    20+mph Commuter JoeyBike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by B. Carfree View Post
    Be fair, Bek. Joey has totally owned what mistakes he made here. The bike lane was just a feature that was present. The only "blame" he laid on it was really laid on the removal of the parking places as it approaches the intersection.
    It actually makes sense to let cars pass on the right in that location. However, that bike lane starts at a point that literally forces cars in the right lane (of two) into the bike lane (see the photo I posted above with several cars trapped in the bike lane), then forces bikes into a trap where cars will be passing on the right without proper markings on the roadway - like: END BIKE LANE which is precisely what is happening there. But instead there is a happy bicycle with a freaking arrow guiding cyclists into a trap (visible in photo above). The bike lane does not continue beyond that intersection. The road becomes one shared lane with parallel parking on the right and eventually a curb on the left after a short bit of double-yellow line.
    Last edited by JoeyBike; 05-24-13 at 09:53 PM.
    "For all we know his skills may be excellent, allowing him to ride like an idiot without actually being one." - FBinNY

  12. #62
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    maybe a bollard or two, keep those killers on their side of time line, eh? keep the mad assassins at bay from those with slowed reflexes.

    i'm confident riders by and large find the bikelanes a boon at passing all the congested traffic in old town.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  13. #63
    Senior Member kalliergo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    i'm confident riders by and large find the bikelanes a boon at passing all the congested traffic in old town.
    I guess we're looking at different photos or something. The bike lane I see is so bad even you ought to hate it, Bek.
    "What if we fail to stop the erosion of cities by automobiles?. . . In that case, we Americans will hardly need to ponder a mystery that has troubled men for millennia: What is the purpose of life? For us, the answer will be clear, established and for all practical purposes indisputable: The purpose of life is to produce and consume automobiles."

    ~Jane Jacobs, The Death and Life of Great American Cities

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by kalliergo View Post
    Lots of exceptions in various places. Here's the current California provision:
    It's the wrong provision. California prohibits it (using the same words that LA does). I don't believe there are "lots" of exceptions (there may be some).

    Quote Originally Posted by kalliergo View Post
    In Louisiana:

    Note that Louisiana, but not California, prohibits leaving the pavement or traveled portion. Joey's close encounter was with a driver who might well have been making a legal move, except that he forgot the part about safe conditions. . .
    ???? "Legal move"? Louisiana prohibits it (including using bicycle lanes or shoulders).

    ============

    http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d11/vc21755.htm

    21755. (a) The driver of a vehicle may overtake and pass another vehicle upon the right only under conditions permitting that movement in safety. In no event shall that movement be made by driving off the paved or main traveled portion of the roadway.

    (b) This section does not prohibit the use of a bicycle in a bicycle lane or on a shoulder.

    Amended Sec. 40, Ch. 491, Stats. 2010. Effective January 1, 2011.
    http://www.legis.state.la.us/lss/lss.asp?doc=88556

    §74. When passing on the right is permitted

    A. The driver of a vehicle may overtake and pass upon the right of another vehicle only under the following conditions:

    (1) When the vehicle overtaken is making or about to make a left turn;

    (2) Upon a one-way street, or upon a highway on which traffic is restricted to one direction of movement, where the highway is free from obstructions and of sufficient width for two or more lines of moving vehicles;

    (3) Upon multiple-lane highways.

    B. The driver of a vehicle may overtake and pass another vehicle upon the right only under conditions permitting such movement in safety. In no event shall such movement be made by driving off the pavement or main traveled portion of the highway.

    C. This Section does not prohibit the use of a bicycle in a bicycle lane or on a shoulder.
    Quote Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
    It's usually not legal for motor vehicle drivers to cross the fog line to pass on the right (I believe TX is one exception).
    As I said, there could be exceptions. CA and LA are not exceptions.
    Last edited by njkayaker; 05-25-13 at 06:29 AM.

  15. #65
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    yeah, everyone should simply ride their bikes in big crowded cities like New Orleans expecting motorists to simply follow the law. it's that simple.



    traffic jammers should know better. This is a paltry, blame the pavement game.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    yeah, everyone should simply ride their bikes in big crowded cities like New Orleans expecting motorists to simply follow the law. it's that simple.
    Not what I was saying. You should stop putting words into other people's mouths.

  17. #67
    Bicikli Huszár sudo bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    I'm surprised this humdrum traffic danger threw Joey for a loop to the degree he wanted to post about it here. It's really an inditement of poor situational awareness, regardless of the stripes on the road.

    It's really a no-brainer - watch out approaching a line of cars with a left turner at the front of the line.
    It's because none of us can match your cycling prowess. Go easy on us unwashed masses, Bek... we can't all be as perfect as you.
    "The bicycle is the noblest invention of mankind. I love the bicycle. I always have. I can think of no sincere, decent human being, male or female, young or old, saint or sinner, who can resist the bicycle."

    - William Saroyan

  18. #68
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    dude - it's a simple safety suggestion. it's not MY 'prowess'. Joeys the one always posting about his traffic prowess so this post seems out of character. This is a shame and blame the pavement game.

    for those of you riding into scenarios like this - stopped traffic, left turner, space for cars to pass, do not let your guard down simply because you think the driver isn't going to try to get around!

    basic situational awareness for riding in cities or anywhere you encounter a line of backed up traffic.

    Don't tell the forum you too, Sudo, recommend the 'ignorance is bliss' technique when you approach a line of stopped traffic with a left turner at the front of the line, and space for the second to move around?

    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  19. #69
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
    Not what I was saying. You should stop putting words into other people's mouths.
    it seems that's what more than a few of you are suggesting. quoting the legal restrictions against it makes it seem like you think the laws provide a magic shield against motorists flubbing exacting traffic interaction.


    sorry you can't entertain conversational repartee; the OP is suggesting because of the striping on the road, he shouldn't have had this happen to him, how dare the motorist 'break the law'.

    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  20. #70
    Bicikli Huszár sudo bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    dude - it's a simple safety suggestion. it's not MY 'prowess'. Joeys the one always posting about his traffic prowess so this post seems out of character. This is a shame and blame the pavement game.

    for those of you riding into scenarios like this - stopped traffic, left turner, space for cars to pass, do not let your guard down simply because you think the driver isn't going to try to get around!

    basic situational awareness for riding in cities or anywhere you encounter a line of backed up traffic.

    Don't tell the forum you too, Sudo, recommend the 'ignorance is bliss' technique when you approach a line of stopped traffic with a left turner at the front of the line, and space for the second to move around?

    And here I thought you were just down-talking to people with phrases like:

    I'm suprised a guy with your riding chops don't know this.
    -Must be pretty cloistered down there! New Orleans sounds so bucolic.
    For an aspiring traffic jammer, i'm surprised a basic squeeze scenario threw ya for a loop!!~
    I'm surprised this humdrum traffic danger threw Joey for a loop to the degree he wanted to post about it here. It's really an inditement of poor situational awareness, regardless of the stripes on the road.
    But I guess these were all just harmless safety suggestions. Could've fooled me.
    "The bicycle is the noblest invention of mankind. I love the bicycle. I always have. I can think of no sincere, decent human being, male or female, young or old, saint or sinner, who can resist the bicycle."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    it seems that's what more than a few of you are suggesting.
    No. It appears that many things "seem" to you that are not real.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    quoting the legal restrictions against it makes it seem like you think the laws provide a magic shield against motorists flubbing exacting traffic interaction.
    Anybody for whom this "seems" has comprehension problems. No one is suggesting what you are imagining they "seem" to be suggesting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    sorry you can't entertain conversational repartee;
    You can't deal with people talking about topics you don't approve of.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    the OP is suggesting because of the striping on the road, he shouldn't have had this happen to him, how dare the motorist 'break the law'.
    ??? He isn't suggesting any such thing.

  22. #72
    Senior Member dynodonn's Avatar
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    "i'm confident riders by and large find the bikelanes a boon at passing all the congested traffic in old town."

    I agree, and one should operate at a speed parameter that fits their reflexes and traffic conditions at the time.

  23. #73
    Senior Member kalliergo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
    ???? "Legal move"? Louisiana prohibits it (including using bicycle lanes or shoulders).
    That's just silly. Regardless of the legality of leaving the pavement or main traveled portion of the roadway, or crossing the fog line, neither of those situations is applicable to the situation Joey shared.

    What do you think those dashed lines are intended to indicate?
    "What if we fail to stop the erosion of cities by automobiles?. . . In that case, we Americans will hardly need to ponder a mystery that has troubled men for millennia: What is the purpose of life? For us, the answer will be clear, established and for all practical purposes indisputable: The purpose of life is to produce and consume automobiles."

    ~Jane Jacobs, The Death and Life of Great American Cities

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    Quote Originally Posted by kalliergo View Post
    That's just silly. Regardless of the legality of leaving the pavement or main traveled portion of the roadway, or crossing the fog line, neither of those situations is applicable to the situation Joey shared.

    What do you think those dashed lines are intended to indicate?


    The thing that happened to Joey doesn't only occur in places with dashed lines.

    I rather-clearly wasn't talking about the dashed-line situation.

    Anyway, the interest (according to Joey) of his particular situation is what it says generally about similar situations (not just in the situation where there are dashed lines).

    Note that it wouldn't be legal if the lane was a right-turn lane (even with the dashed lines). (Because you are easlily confused, I'll point out that it appears there wasn't a right-turn only lane in Joey's particular situation.)
    Last edited by njkayaker; 05-25-13 at 11:50 AM.

  25. #75
    Senior Member kalliergo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post


    The thing that happened to Joey doesn't only occur in places with dashed lines.

    I rather-clearly wasn't talking about the dashed-line situation.
    Well, it wasn't clear to me, probably because Joey's thread is about what happened in that particular situation.

    As for the common passing-left-turning-traffic-on-the-right procedure, almost nobody in America hesitates to do so, whether it requires leaving the main roadway, using a paved or unpaved shoulder, or not. It's SOP.

    The lesson for cyclists is the same in both cases: Passing traffic that may move right, on the right, is dangerous.
    "What if we fail to stop the erosion of cities by automobiles?. . . In that case, we Americans will hardly need to ponder a mystery that has troubled men for millennia: What is the purpose of life? For us, the answer will be clear, established and for all practical purposes indisputable: The purpose of life is to produce and consume automobiles."

    ~Jane Jacobs, The Death and Life of Great American Cities

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