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  1. #26
    incazzare. lostarchitect's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Commodus View Post
    Who would ask in this instance? And why?

    Many people. I don't know what their motives are, and I don't care too much. It's information. Are you against spreading information? If there is a car accident, they will also note if the person was wearing a seatbelt or not. It's just standard procedure. The police include the information in the briefing, and the reporter includes it in the report.
    1964 JRJ (Bob Jackson) San Remo Plus, 1989 Trek 520, 2000ish Colian (Colin Laing), 2013 Velo Orange Pass Hunter

  2. #27
    Senior Member Commodus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lostarchitect View Post
    Many people. I don't know what their motives are, and I don't care too much. It's information. Are you against spreading information? If there is a car accident, they will also note if the person was wearing a seatbelt or not. It's just standard procedure. The police include the information in the briefing, and the reporter includes it in the report.
    I would agree with ILTB, that the only people who would ask if a foam hat would have protected against a friggin garbage truck running over you are the mentally subordinate and those with a particular bias. If it's the latter, then yes I am against the spreading of 'information'...as you rather graciously put it.

  3. #28
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kalliergo View Post
    If you're interested, read the comment thread on the article in question, referenced and linked above. It's an example of a long-running blood feud, overwhelmingly anti-cyclist, in that large metro area news outlet. I'm not going to do remedial work here.
    The torch and pitchfork crowd can be found ranting and raving their irrational gibberish on almost ANY
    comment thread after any article posted on the Internet, including the NYT and Washington Post, especially the Washington Post.

  4. #29
    Senior Member squirtdad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lostarchitect View Post
    Many people. I don't know what their motives are, and I don't care too much. It's information. Are you against spreading information? If there is a car accident, they will also note if the person was wearing a seatbelt or not. It's just standard procedure. The police include the information in the briefing, and the reporter includes it in the report.
    reports almost always state upfront something like alchohol or drug use was not a factor in this accident. Also pedestrian was/was not in crosswalk. Or speed was not a factor, and so on. it is like there is a standard list of things to report if known.
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  5. #30
    Senior Member GP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vol View Post
    No mention of the speed of the truck. I've seen garbage trucks speeding on city streets in the dark.

    Shouldn't the driver stop immediately and stay there instead of "drove the truck around the block and parked back near the crash site"?
    The driver may not have heard or felt the impact. I hit the rear of a panel van once and the driver had no idea until he walked out of a store and saw police officers looking at the van.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Commodus View Post
    This is a charming bit of fantasy. 'If only we were better somehow' maybe they would like us.'
    I don't think 'they' dislike most of us. I just think when we're sharing space provided primarily for, and occupied primarily by, cars and trucks we should do everything reasonably possible to advance the image of cyclists.
    Last edited by SwampDude; 05-23-13 at 03:15 PM. Reason: Corrected word-choice error

  7. #32
    Senior Member Commodus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SwampDude View Post
    I don't think 'they' dislike most of us. I just think when we're sharing space provided primarily for, and occupied primarily by, cars and trucks we should do everything reasonably possible to advance the image of two-wheel drivers.
    I would really like to hear your explanation of why 'we' (and I fully understand that I'm using this term in an almost impossibly ironic sense, give me a break for brevity here) should do this. I'm not being flippant or insulting, if you have the time and inclination to spell out the reasoning behind this attitude, I would honestly like to read it.

  8. #33
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SwampDude View Post
    I don't think 'they' dislike most of us. I just think when we're sharing space provided primarily for, and occupied primarily by, cars and trucks we should do everything reasonably possible to advance the image of two-wheel drivers.
    If you want to "advance the image of two-wheel drivers" because "they dislike most of us" - get two more wheels.

    And while you are at it, lose the stilted use of the word "drivers" to describe bicyclists.

  9. #34
    Cycle Dallas MMACH 5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikecrate View Post
    Even our very good local paper always ends these kinds of stories with a helmet status comment. I think the inference is if you not wearing a helmet you’re prejudged a reckless cyclist who doesn’t care about their own safety.
    See squirtdad's comment for why it probably ends up in the stories, but I agree that this is the take-away for most who read the stories.

    Quote Originally Posted by squirtdad View Post
    reports almost always state upfront something like alchohol or drug use was not a factor in this accident. Also pedestrian was/was not in crosswalk. Or speed was not a factor, and so on. it is like there is a standard list of things to report if known.
    That's gonna leave a mark.

  10. #35
    Senior Member kalliergo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SwampDude View Post
    I don't think 'they' dislike most of us. I just think when we're sharing space provided primarily for, and occupied primarily by, cars and trucks we should do everything reasonably possible to advance the image of two-wheel drivers.
    Right. We should all want to be good ambassadors for our lower-caste families and neighborhoods. And, of course, being grateful that they let us use the roads is our duty.
    "What if we fail to stop the erosion of cities by automobiles?. . . In that case, we Americans will hardly need to ponder a mystery that has troubled men for millennia: What is the purpose of life? For us, the answer will be clear, established and for all practical purposes indisputable: The purpose of life is to produce and consume automobiles."

    ~Jane Jacobs, The Death and Life of Great American Cities

  11. #36
    Senior Member Brennan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SwampDude View Post
    Who the hell is the "torch and pitchfork crowd"?
    You'd know if you read SFgate comments with any regularity, although similar comments can be found elsewhere. Basically, any time there is an article involving bicycles, a flood of angry/negative comments come out against cyclists, even if it's a story about a cyclist getting mowed down and killed.

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by kalliergo View Post
    Right. We should all want to be good ambassadors for our lower-caste families and neighborhoods. And, of course, being grateful that they let us use the roads is our duty.
    i consciously try to be a good representative of the sport of cycling every time I ride, everywhere I ride. I believe we all have an opportunity to affect the way cyclists are viewed in our respective communities, and public opinion does impact the expansion of trails, bike lanes, bike parking facilities, etc. over time. Sorry if I offended anyone or seemed 'political' in my comments.

  13. #38
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    As far as the helmet it is standard here same as the drugs and alcohol thing I took a co-worker in for a on the job ankle injury . As soon as worker comp was mentioned They ask if he was wearing a hardhat?????
    Every breath I Have ever taken as a Free man was paid for with the blood of an American Soldier

  14. #39
    incazzare. lostarchitect's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Commodus View Post
    I would agree with ILTB, that the only people who would ask if a foam hat would have protected against a friggin garbage truck running over you are the mentally subordinate and those with a particular bias. If it's the latter, then yes I am against the spreading of 'information'...as you rather graciously put it.

    Meh. You are actually asking for your own bias to get in the way of an accurate report.
    1964 JRJ (Bob Jackson) San Remo Plus, 1989 Trek 520, 2000ish Colian (Colin Laing), 2013 Velo Orange Pass Hunter

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by longbeachgary View Post
    Can't assign responsibility but you did anyway. Way to go.
    From the article: "A witness said the truck, which was paralleling the male bicyclist on eastbound 16th, tried to make a right turn onto southbound South Van Ness and collided with the rider."

    It was almost certainly a right hook. Looking at Google street view there are no bike lanes on 16th street. Based on that fact the cyclist probably should've been taking the lane. Passing (or being passed by) a vehicle, when travelling in the right-most lane, as you go through an intersection is asking to be hooked.
    Last edited by Dunbar; 05-23-13 at 04:11 PM.

  16. #41
    Not quite there yet Matariki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ItsJustMe View Post
    No idea who is at fault but people, do not ride alongside trucks regardless of what you think your rights are. I've driven large farm vehicles before, and it's simply not possible to see everything around them.

    If a truck is pulling past me, I will watch carefully and if he's going to be there more than a few seconds, I slow down to get him past me as quickly as possible. If I'm overtaking, I either slow down to stay at least 20 feet behind, or I find some way to get around him without putting myself between him and any other object.

    (of course, the mandatory "the cyclist was not wearing a helmet" is in the article. Neither was he probably wearing a condom - it would have done him about as much good and is exactly as relevant to the situation).
    +1000 on this.

  17. #42
    Senior Member Commodus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lostarchitect View Post
    Meh. You are actually asking for your own bias to get in the way of an accurate report.
    Well, details are important I guess. I wonder what colour of pants he was wearing? What brand of shoes? How much did he weigh?

    This report is seriously inaccurate.

  18. #43
    Senior Member Commodus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunbar View Post
    From the article: "A witness said the truck, which was paralleling the male bicyclist on eastbound 16th, tried to make a right turn onto southbound South Van Ness and collided with the rider."

    It was almost certainly a right hook. Looking at Google street view there are no bike lanes on 16th street. Based on that fact the cyclist probably should've been taking the lane. Passing (or being passed by) a vehicle, when travelling in the right-most lane, as you go through an intersection is asking to be hooked.
    I don't see anything here which suggests the rider was passing the truck on the right? Perhaps I am missing it?

  19. #44
    Senior Member kalliergo's Avatar
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    So far, I don't see any reliable information about which user was overtaking the other, or if they were truly traveling side-by-side at similar speeds, or where the two were positioned WRT each other, road markings, traffic, fixed obstacles. . .

    And we still don't even know whether the cyclist was turning or intending to travel straight through the intersection.

    We just know that it's bad when a garbage truck turns into or immediately in front of a moving cyclist.
    "What if we fail to stop the erosion of cities by automobiles?. . . In that case, we Americans will hardly need to ponder a mystery that has troubled men for millennia: What is the purpose of life? For us, the answer will be clear, established and for all practical purposes indisputable: The purpose of life is to produce and consume automobiles."

    ~Jane Jacobs, The Death and Life of Great American Cities

  20. #45
    Senior Member longbeachgary's Avatar
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    Maybe we all should STFU about assigning blame when none of us were there and none of us are skilled accident investigators. Don't speculate because you don't know. Just shut up.

  21. #46
    Senior Member gcottay's Avatar
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    Seat belts and helmets are routine police report and news items.

    I take this sad story as one more reminder to pass to the right at intersections only with extreme caution.
    George
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  22. #47
    Senior Member kalliergo's Avatar
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    From the latest revision on SFGate:

    The crash happened near 16th Street and South Van Ness Avenue about 6:45 a.m. when the truck, which was parallel to the bicyclist on eastbound 16th, tried to make a right turn onto southbound South Van Ness, police said.


    The cyclist was riding "at a high rate of speed" and hit the back of the turning truck, police said.


    The driver continued a short distance on South Van Ness, said the witness, 29-year-old Jorge Marquez of San Bruno, but stopped after people on the street alerted him to what had happened.

    The picture may be getting clearer. Neither party appears to have been operating properly in this version.
    "What if we fail to stop the erosion of cities by automobiles?. . . In that case, we Americans will hardly need to ponder a mystery that has troubled men for millennia: What is the purpose of life? For us, the answer will be clear, established and for all practical purposes indisputable: The purpose of life is to produce and consume automobiles."

    ~Jane Jacobs, The Death and Life of Great American Cities

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by SwampDude View Post
    Some of us are awfully goosy about anything printed concerning cyclists. Maybe its because we're members of the vast minority when it comes to populating our streets. Like other minorities, we should understand our status and work extra hard to present the best image possible...including wearing helmets and high-vis apparel.
    So, because there are fewer of us, WE are the ones who have to "be nice"? WE have to appease the ignorant masses? And what, anyway, does this have to do with the article, or the piece of it you were responding to (article's comment re: helmet)? IF they are going to continue to add this standard line, "because readers will question it", why don't they ALSO comment whether or not the presence/absence of a helmet was a factor in the cyclist's death/injuries...? (The cyclist, who was not wearing a helmet, suffered massive trauma to the chest and abdomen, which caused his death, said Joseph P. Badge of the police dept.)

    Quote Originally Posted by SwampDude View Post
    Who the hell is the "torch and pitchfork crowd"?
    Guess you never saw Frankenstein, or the related "cliche' " monster movies; goaded by fear, villagers would take up pitchforks and torches to exact vigilante justice on the 'evil creature' they feared. So sad, you seem to have grown up a little 'deprived'.

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by longbeachgary View Post
    Maybe we all should STFU about assigning blame when none of us were there and none of us are skilled accident investigators. Don't speculate because you don't know. Just shut up.
    BUT...but...I watched CSI last night......

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by DX-MAN View Post
    So, because there are fewer of us, WE are the ones who have to "be nice"? WE have to appease the ignorant masses?


    Guess you never saw Frankenstein, or the related "cliche' " monster movies; goaded by fear, villagers would take up pitchforks and torches to exact vigilante justice on the 'evil creature' they feared. So sad, you seem to have grown up a little 'deprived'.
    We are outnumbered, by a huge margin, and most non-cyclists, including reporters, don't have a clue about our sport or our motivations; the mention of a helmet at the outset was likely the only cycling gear the reporter knew to comment about other than the bike. Yea, I think its in our interest to show the "ignorant masses" we're responsible, courteous, safety conscious. What's wrong with that?

    With respect to the monster movies, I must have missed the important ones.

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