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-   -   Cyclist dies in SF garbage-truck crash (http://www.bikeforums.net/advocacy-safety/891341-cyclist-dies-sf-garbage-truck-crash.html)

CB HI 05-24-13 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike (Post 15663630)
Is that right? I hadn't noticed this factoid ever posted anywhere.

Go sit in a testing center sometime. The testers are always amazed when I am able to get 100% on the test. Teenagers often complain about how hard the test is and that they had to take it a second time. Feel free to fund a million dollar study to prove me right or wrong.

I-Like-To-Bike 05-24-13 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CB HI (Post 15663639)
Go sit in a testing center sometime. The testers are always amazed when I am able to get 100% on the test. Teenagers often complain about how hard the test is and that they had to take it a second time. Feel free to fund a million dollar study to prove me right or wrong.

Got it; you made up a factoid to match your impression/anecdote. No problem, happens all the time on BF.

Dunbar 05-24-13 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Commodus (Post 15659523)
I don't see anything here which suggests the rider was passing the truck on the right? Perhaps I am missing it?

The witness account (which I quoted in my post) is very clear that the bike was travelling to the right of the truck when the accident occured. Right hooks can happen whether you are passing or being passed so I'm not sure why that matters from an "advocacy & safety" standpoint. Just don't put yourself in that position if it can be avoided. Right hooks are one of the easier situations to avoid if you ride defensively.

Commodus 05-24-13 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keith99 (Post 15663579)
Let's just stop and think for a second. Reporter has almost zero facts. Driver likely say he never saw the cyclist.

Other than cyclist dead there is pretty much just one other cold hard fact.

Helmet or no helmet!

And people get upset because they include the one real fact they have.

There are lots of facts; cold, hard and otherwise. Some of them are even relevant.

Commodus 05-24-13 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dunbar (Post 15663683)
The witness account (which I quoted in my post) is very clear that the bike was travelling to the right of the truck when the accident occured. Right hooks can happen whether you are passing or being passed so I'm not sure why that matters from an "advocacy & safety" standpoint. Just don't put yourself in that position if it can be avoided. Right hooks are one of the easier situations to avoid if you ride defensively.

Maybe you have some special technique you'd like to share, but when I'm riding along I get passed by cars all the time. If one of them gets the sudden urge to turn right my survival depends mostly on when and where said driver gets said urge.

Dunbar 05-24-13 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Commodus (Post 15663872)
Maybe you have some special technique you'd like to share.

If you're in the right-most traffic lane (if more than one lane exists) then you need to take the lane when going through intersections. And since it's not really safe to go in/out of traffic you better stay there (to say nothing of staying ouf out of the door zone.)

Here the Google street view of the street the bike and truck were traveling on. The intersection ahead is where the collision occured.

http://img855.imageshack.us/img855/1...30524at227.png

kalliergo 05-24-13 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CB HI (Post 15663620)
So many of drivers today just barely pass the written test. Insert a couple of cycling related questions into the drivers test, and they either learn the cycling stuff or they likely fail the test.

Yep. Easy and cheap. Not a total solution, but a lot more of the newbies hitting the roads would at least have been exposed to the concept of road-sharing.

And my experience with sharrows and Share the Road signs is that they actually help quite a bit.

kalliergo 05-24-13 04:02 PM

Dunbar is correct, of course. Note that we don't know how many of the parking spaces that are empty in the Google street view were occupied at the time of the crash.

This is a straightforward place to ride, but curb-hugging is especially dangerous when these streets get busy. And Recology trucks ripping around corners (oh, yes, they do) are guaranteed to crush at least a few humans now and then.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dunbar (Post 15663897)
If you're in the right-most traffic lane (if more than one lane exists) then you need to take the lane when going through intersections. And since it's not really safe to go in/out of traffic you better stay there (to say nothing of staying ouf out of the door zone.)

Here the Google street view of the street the bike and truck were traveling on. The intersection ahead is where the collision occured.

http://img855.imageshack.us/img855/1...30524at227.png


kalliergo 05-24-13 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CB HI (Post 15663639)
Go sit in a testing center sometime.

Yup. It probably matters where you go to observe, of course, but I noticed quite a bit of obvious struggling and several people who were being re-tested, last time I was in DMV, 2-3 years ago.

Commodus 05-24-13 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dunbar (Post 15663897)
If you're in the right-most traffic lane (if more than one lane exists) then you need to take the lane when going through intersections. And since it's not really safe to go in/out of traffic you better stay there (to say nothing of staying ouf out of the door zone.)

Here the Google street view of the street the bike and truck were traveling on. The intersection ahead is where the collision occured.

I don't understand how anything you've said here is relevant. Even if you take the lane cars will obviously still be passing you.

kalliergo 05-24-13 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Commodus (Post 15664048)
Even if you take the lane cars will obviously still be passing you.

No. They won't, for the most part, except where it's safe to do so. Certainly very few will (perhaps partially) leave the lane to pass you on the left, approaching an intersection, and then turn right in front of you. Only a madman would deliberately do that in a garbage truck at the intersection in question.

If you hug the curb or the parked cars, most right-turners will probably cut you off. It's just a question of how close and how fast. Take the lane approaching intersections.

If you make right turns without merging right, in your garbage truck, at 16th & S. Van Ness. . . sooner or later you'll probably crunch somebody.

Paint sharrows there and put up a couple of Share signs with appropriate graphics. Send cops out, on bikes and motorcycles, for a few rush-hour cycles. They can politely remind folks how to share and issue warnings or citations to jerks.

Call the local TV stations. Get the real professional drivers to join the campaign.

Aren't there any Mission bikers here?

CB HI 05-24-13 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike (Post 15663654)
Got it; you made up a factoid to match your impression/anecdote. No problem, happens all the time on BF.

Got it, you live in a very dark, closed in room.

kalliergo 05-24-13 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike (Post 15663630)
Is that right? I hadn't noticed this factoid ever posted anywhere.

Well, it's pretty widely known. The last California DMV survey I remember (and could find) should give you a sense of the big picture, even though it's more than a decade out of date:

Quote:

Would you believe that almost two-thirds of California's adult original Class C license applicants fail the English written test on their first attempt? Or that more than half of the renewal applicants also fail the English written test on the first attempt? A recent evaluation by the Department's Research and Development Branch discovered these findings and many others. We collected more than 20,000 written tests over a 2-day period in August 1997 for original, renewal, and provisional English and Spanish language applicants. The results indicated surprisingly high fail rates for applicants taking the written tests. As illustrated in the figure, 65% of original applicants, 54.9% of renewal applicants, and 45.6% of provisional (English language only) license applicants failed the written test on their first attempt. The figure also shows that the fail rates remained high over successive test attempts.

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/about/profile/...evaluation.htm

Dunbar 05-24-13 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Commodus (Post 15664048)
I don't understand how anything you've said here is relevant. Even if you take the lane cars will obviously still be passing you.

In addition to what kalliergo said, I don't care if they pass me. If you're going to take the lane you need to be comfortable with the notion of cars changing their position to pass you. If they want to cross a double yellow to pass on my left that's fine. If they want to use empty parking spaces to pass on my right that's also fine (although both are probably illegal.) On the pictured street if I saw a motorist using their right turn signal in my mirror I'd probably move left to let them pass on the right and get into position to make their turn. But I'm not putting myself in a position to be right hooked (or doored.)

frantik 05-26-13 07:52 AM

i don't know if it's been mentioned but the article in the OP no longer seems to mention the helmet status

it's the 3rd sentence in this report though http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?sec...rticle-9113406

frantik 05-26-13 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kalliergo (Post 15664019)
And Recology trucks ripping around corners (oh, yes, they do) are guaranteed to crush at least a few humans now and then.

apparently...
Quote:

Almost two months ago, a Recology truck struck a grandmother and her 7-year-old granddaughter in the crosswalk of Broadway and Embarcadero, crushing the girl's foot. She is now recovering, but that accident is still under investigation.

dynodonn 05-26-13 09:55 AM

"Almost two months ago, a Recology truck struck a grandmother and her 7-year-old granddaughter in the crosswalk of Broadway and Embarcadero, crushing the girl's foot. She is now recovering, but that accident is still under investigation."


WOW! No apparent mentioning of whether the 7 yo girl was wearing steel toed boots or not.

Tony N. 05-26-13 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dunbar (Post 15663897)
If you're in the right-most traffic lane (if more than one lane exists) then you need to take the lane when going through intersections. And since it's not really safe to go in/out of traffic you better stay there (to say nothing of staying ouf out of the door zone.)

Here the Google street view of the street the bike and truck were traveling on. The intersection ahead is where the collision occured.

http://img855.imageshack.us/img855/1...30524at227.png

Just curious. In this picture, which way was the truck and cyclist traveling? 2 lane or single lane? If cyclist was outside of door zone in single lane, truck could still squeeze by cyclist and not cross couble yellow. IMO it is impotant to most cyclist to know if cyclist had on a helmet. Most other non cyclist don't care to know. As a cyclist, I want to know if a helmet prevents head injuries in any accident.

howsteepisit 05-26-13 10:26 AM

Since not all accidents are reported in the news, the presence of a helmet in a single accident where the rider was crushed by a truck in not evidence of the efficacy of a helmut in preventing injury nor death.

As a cyclist I don't need nor want to know if the rider in a fatal accident was wearing a helmet as part a a standard news report package,

dynodonn 05-26-13 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony N. (Post 15669138)
IMO it is impotant to most cyclist to know if cyclist had on a helmet. Most other non cyclist don't care to know. As a cyclist, I want to know if a helmet prevents head injuries in any accident.

Generally, that's not the case, it's basically used as a means to point the blame at a cyclist for being the main cause of their demise, and diverting attention from other contributing factors.

Dunbar 05-26-13 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony N. (Post 15669138)
Just curious. In this picture, which way was the truck and cyclist traveling? 2 lane or single lane? If cyclist was outside of door zone in single lane, truck could still squeeze by cyclist and not cross couble yellow.

In the single lane, heading east which is the direction they were heading according to the article. As far as squeezing past the cyclist without crossing the double yellow, that's debatable and I doubt a truck would do that near an intersection where they intended to turn right. Proper lane position forces vehicles to acknowledge your existance and go around you. Riding in the gutter means they may not see you and will behave as if you don't exist. I really doubt this truck driver intentionally hit the cyclist and it's very possible he/she never saw him.

frantik 05-26-13 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dynodonn (Post 15669047)
"Almost two months ago, a Recology truck struck a grandmother and her 7-year-old granddaughter in the crosswalk of Broadway and Embarcadero, crushing the girl's foot. She is now recovering, but that accident is still under investigation."


WOW! No apparent mentioning of whether the 7 yo girl was wearing steel toed boots or not.

also no mention if the cyclist was wearing steel toed boots. or shin guards. or gloves, or mtb body armor. seems like they're leaving out some info!

kenji666 05-26-13 11:39 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by frantik (Post 15669364)
also no mention if the cyclist was wearing steel toed boots. or shin guards. or gloves, or mtb body armor. seems like they're leaving out some info!

The article also doesn't mention if the truck had wheels like this:
http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=319327

dynodonn 05-26-13 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by frantik (Post 15669364)
also no mention if the cyclist was wearing steel toed boots. or shin guards. or gloves, or mtb body armor. seems like they're leaving out some info!


.....and what irritates me even more is the mentioning that the cyclist was traveling "at a high rate of speed", compared to what?

CB HI 05-26-13 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dynodonn (Post 15669401)
.....and what irritates me even more is the mentioning that the cyclist was traveling "at a high rate of speed", compared to what?

Compared to the truck that passed the cyclist.



Oh wait, the truck was traveling faster.


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