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  1. #51
    Senior Member JonnyHK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimi77 View Post
    I'm going to have to disagree. When I spot an obviously unhandicapped person using handicapped parking, I'll stroll by and comment, "Must be a mental handicap."

    Different situations do require different teaching methodologies. I think I'd agree with your direct instruction approach in this circumstance. Perhaps even some kinaesthetic learning involving some kinetic energy to the side of the head?

  2. #52
    Cycle Year Round CB HI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by genec View Post
    Safe is a relative thing... it is highly unlikely that hitting a ped or a ped hitting a cyclist will result in death. The same cannot be said about collisions with a motor vehicle.
    The vast majority of collisions between cyclist and motor vehicles do not result in death. The same can be said about collisions with pedestrians, but there are several cases that have resulted in deaths.
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  3. #53
    Senior Member JonnyHK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CB HI View Post
    The vast majority of collisions between cyclist and motor vehicles do not result in death. The same can be said about collisions with pedestrians, but there are several cases that have resulted in deaths.

    Bikes are a bit sharper than cars. Sorta makes up for the fact we're slower and lighter.

  4. #54
    Senior Member gcottay's Avatar
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    Actually those are your fellow citizens, very few of whom are actually idiots or morons. You only demean yourself and impede your cause with the name calling.
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  5. #55
    PatronSaintOfDiscBrakes dynaryder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by genec View Post
    Safe is a relative thing... it is highly unlikely that hitting a ped or a ped hitting a cyclist will result in death. The same cannot be said about collisions with a motor vehicle.
    Actually,we had a death on one of the local trails here when a bike bumped a ped. The rider was in his 60's,and the ped was a woman in her 70's. He didn't hit her hard,but it was enough for her to fall over and hit her head. It would also be bad if a cyclist hit a small child,so while ped deaths may be rare,they can and do happen.

    edit:I just remembered,the ped death prior to that one was the result of a cyclist going fast down an alley and hitting a senior citizen,who also died from falling and hitting his head. So we've had this happen twice in the last 4 yrs. Still very rare,but it does happen.

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  6. #56
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dynaryder View Post
    Actually,we had a death on one of the local trails here when a bike bumped a ped. The rider was in his 60's,and the ped was a woman in her 70's. He didn't hit her hard,but it was enough for her to fall over and hit her head. It would also be bad if a cyclist hit a small child,so while ped deaths may be rare,they can and do happen.

    edit:I just remembered,the ped death prior to that one was the result of a cyclist going fast down an alley and hitting a senior citizen,who also died from falling and hitting his head. So we've had this happen twice in the last 4 yrs. Still very rare,but it does happen.
    Sure it does happen, as we have discussed here on BF... but the odds are very low when compared to the potential of being killed when struck by a Motor Vehicle. I mean the odds of a cyclist and ped in a death collision are perhaps akin to winning the lottery. (I have not actually calculated the odds, so no doubt someone may come along and debate my statement.)

  7. #57
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CB HI View Post
    The vast majority of collisions between cyclist and motor vehicles do not result in death. The same can be said about collisions with pedestrians, but there are several cases that have resulted in deaths.
    Agreed; but there are far far far more cases of cyclists being killed by MV than ped.

    Frankly I think the "dangers" of MUPs are vastly overstated. Skinned knees do not equal broken bones et. al.

    BTW as a bit of a side note about our Hawaii conversation... While wide shoulders of Kona to Hawi are outstanding (I would ride those any day) the biggest issue are motorists... such as the driver I saw on the way to the airport... neither hand on the wheel... one holding the phone, the other pushing buttons, driving with his knees (and swerving on the single lane 55 MPH road)... it was enough to remind me that the real "problems" on the road are selfish and foolish drivers.
    Last edited by genec; 06-02-13 at 08:59 PM.

  8. #58
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    So how does this work?

    When cyclists are killed in car collisions it's the motorist's fault for excess speed, dangerous passing, inattentiveness, etc. But when it's cyclist vs. pedestrian, it's the pedestrian's fault, for not keeping right, walking 2,3,4 abreast, wearing a walkman, being inattentive, etc.

    I guess cyclists are never in the wrong.
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  9. #59
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
    So how does this work?

    When cyclists are killed in car collisions it's the motorist's fault for excess speed, dangerous passing, inattentiveness, etc. But when it's cyclist vs. pedestrian, it's the pedestrian's fault, for not keeping right, walking 2,3,4 abreast, wearing a walkman, being inattentive, etc.

    I guess cyclists are never in the wrong.
    Frankly I fully disagree... the "overtaker," be it automobile or cyclist, regardless of what is being overtaken, has the responsibility to avoid hitting that which is in front... PERIOD.

    This is why for instance that I find it total BS when a motorist says I was "forced" to change lanes... pure and simple BS. The overtaker has the long view and can and must adjust their speed and position for whatever is ahead.

    If you are a cyclist on a crowed MUP... it is your responsibility to avoid the peds, no matter how "stupid" they may be. (even if this means stopping and walking your bike) Motorists have the same responsibility... but due to the preponderance of the automobile and our motorist-centric society, far too often, motorists "get away" with some real crap.

  10. #60
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    I guess you missed the irony in my post. I agree that the responsibility for a safe pass always rests with the passing vehicle. I posed the question as a reality check.

    I ride on an MUP (actually originally built as a bike path, became an MUP by default) and am always adjusting my speed to manage stopping distances consistent with the pedestrian, carriage, dog, traffic.
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  11. #61
    20+mph Commuter JoeyBike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gcottay View Post
    Actually those are your fellow citizens, very few of whom are actually idiots or morons.
    IQ rankings in the USA by state:

    49. LOUISIANA......................................... .................95.3 [average IQ]
    50. MISSISSIPPI....................................... .................94.2 [average IQ]
    (source)

    These are AVERAGE IQs which means HALF of them are dumber than that! (George Carlin)

    I live in Louisiana and only 60 miles from Mississippi. Trust me, they are morons.
    Last edited by JoeyBike; 06-02-13 at 11:08 PM.
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  12. #62
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
    I guess you missed the irony in my post. I agree that the responsibility for a safe pass always rests with the passing vehicle. I posed the question as a reality check.

    I ride on an MUP (actually originally built as a bike path, became an MUP by default) and am always adjusting my speed to manage stopping distances consistent with the pedestrian, carriage, dog, traffic.
    No, I got the irony... the same issue applies to ROW... cars take it and peds are supposed to have it, but cyclists always get the shaft.

    The thing I want to make clear is that on MUPs cyclists have responsibility... and should not abuse it, regardless of the stupidity of the peds. Just tonight I saw a classic MUP scene... clueless ped walking about with earbuds... and fails to look before making a hard 90 degree turn. Never looked, and couldn't hear... ripe for stepping in front of a cyclist.

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by CB HI View Post
    Now you are showing some intelligence by understanding that the road with motorist is much safer to commute on than a MUP with pedestrians.
    For pedestrians, yes.

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimi77 View Post
    When I spot an obviously unhandicapped person using handicapped parking, I'll stroll by and comment, "Must be a mental handicap."
    I hope that either you have never actually done this, or that by "obviously unhandicapped" you mean they're not driving a vehicle with handicapped plates or a tag. Not all physical disabilities are immediately obvious to a random observer, so if you're just going on whether or not they look handicapped to you, you very well may have insulted a disabled person or two.

  15. #65
    That guy from the Chi Chitown_Mike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drago1010 View Post
    Another outstanding video! Since I routinely ride the Lake Front Path in Chicago, this MUP seems rather calm and well organized! At least everyones traveling in the same direction.
    You're a brave, and insane individual. Ever since I saw a rider end up in the lake after being almost rammed by some tourists in a 4 person car/bike years ago I never went back.

    To the OP....I would suggest going out during non peak times if you really want to enjoy it. We have some MUPs that are really busy during the daytime hours so I just ride it very early morning when it is runners and cyclist who have learned to lovingly coexist.
    Looking forward to my winter commuting adventure.....

  16. #66
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chitown_Mike View Post
    You're a brave, and insane individual. Ever since I saw a rider end up in the lake after being almost rammed by some tourists in a 4 person car/bike years ago I never went back.

    To the OP....I would suggest going out during non peak times if you really want to enjoy it. We have some MUPs that are really busy during the daytime hours so I just ride it very early morning when it is runners and cyclist who have learned to lovingly coexist.
    I believe Joey mentioned using this route as part of a commute... which means he would tend to use it at about the same time every day, which would preclude "non peak use."

    Many cyclists encounter similar use issues... the roads I tend to complain about the most... high speed arterial roads, tend to be full of cars (motorists commuting, fast, while distracted, texting et. al.) during my commute; it isn't as if I only ride these roads for shear joy and exercise, I am biking to get somewhere and also have a schedule.

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimi77 View Post
    I'm going to have to disagree. When I spot an obviously unhandicapped person using handicapped parking, I'll stroll by and comment, "Must be a mental handicap."
    Or it could be a disability that isn't immediately obvious to you, which would just make you a jerk. Lots of people haves disabled parking permits for things like heart conditions or muscle weakness that limit how far they can walk, but don't put them in a wheelchair or require them to use a cane. Yes, some people abuse them by illegally taking advantage of a relative's tags, etc, but there are enough invisible disabilities that it's best not to presume. The lives of disabled people are hard enough without having to listen to snide comments from strangers all the time just because they aren't in a wheelchair.

    Now, I do agree that it's sometimes worthwhile to say something to people who clearly ignore the rules of a particular MUP or whatever. They'll usually be defensive, but may change their mind later once they've calmed down. So I like the technique of making said comments while passing by, so as to not engage in a lengthy debate (which is unproductive).

    In this case, things may sort themselves out more over time as the regular users get used to the rules and rhythms. Or maybe not, depending on the proportion of walkers to cyclists. In any case, I agree that MUPs are not the place for fast cyclists (except for on isolated stretches where peds are few and far between).

  18. #68
    Cycle Year Round CB HI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chitown_Mike View Post
    To the OP....I would suggest going out during non peak times if you really want to enjoy it. We have some MUPs that are really busy during the daytime hours so I just ride it very early morning when it is runners and cyclist who have learned to lovingly coexist.
    That does not work well for the OP and other cycle commuters who have to be at work or school on time. I guess it could work for the trip home; if they want to wait at work for a couple hours for the MUP to clear.
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  19. #69
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    for gosh sakes, for the riders upset with the "Crowding" on the MUP cutting into their commute time, simply take the road to avoid the path. joey doesn't HAVE to ride amidst people he characterizes as morons and idiots. except that JoeyBike probably likes moronic pedestrians more than moronic motorists, its hard to tell.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  20. #70
    Cycle Year Round CB HI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    for gosh sakes, for the riders upset with the "Crowding" on the MUP cutting into their commute time, simply take the road to avoid the path. joey doesn't HAVE to ride amidst people he characterizes as morons and idiots. except that JoeyBike probably likes moronic pedestrians more than moronic motorists, its hard to tell.
    So you missed the fact that it is not crowding that Joey is complaining about but the inability to follow the basic rules of the path as clearly marked on the path.
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  21. #71
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CB HI View Post
    So you missed the fact that it is not crowding that Joey is complaining about but the inability to follow the basic rules of the path as clearly marked on the path.
    No, you definitely brought up 'peak hours' on the path, implying crowding is an issue. get off the witchhunt, or take it up in a mirror.

    --------------------------


    Why, pray tell, does any adult bicyclist expect that behavior on the MUP? the "Rules"? I can't believe there are so many gullible cyclists thinking people walking in a park on a path are going to adhere to much of anything.

    seriously, people ? there is clear precedent for cyclists to yield their right of way to pedestrians 'breaking the rules.'

    Some of you guys clearly didn't get the memo about duty of care to pedestrians, didjya now. The only person that seemed to be having a problem in the park was Joey. and that's a shame, it looks so pleasant, and not at all crowded to prevent him from travelling at 10mph, the posted speed. I wonder, was joey keeping to the speed rule on the path?
    Last edited by Bekologist; 06-03-13 at 08:16 PM.
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  22. #72
    20+mph Commuter JoeyBike's Avatar
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    FYI...after two or three visits to the path I abandoned it. I made a special visit on a relatively busy weekday intending to make a video to send to the park admimistration and to post on their facebook page now and then (they rip it down in five minutes).

    I did not want to make the vid on a weekend due to all of the children running wild. Just too risky.

    This path could be a relaxing shortcut for cycling and a great place to skate in a civilized city. Too bad. I am just getting over my disappointment slowly. I need to pretend it was never built. I can't cure stupid.
    Last edited by JoeyBike; 06-03-13 at 08:23 PM.

  23. #73
    Senior Member howsteepisit's Avatar
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    Seriously BEK, nothing wrong with complaining that pedestrians refuse to follow any known set of rules for their behavior. Expecting to see them change ..... not so wise.
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  24. #74
    Cycle Year Round CB HI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    No, you definitely brought up 'peak hours' on the path, implying crowding is an issue. get off the witchhunt, or take it up in a mirror.
    No, I simply responded to another poster, who like you, has problems comprehending the thread. He said the OP should avoid peak hours and I simply told him the OP was commuting and did not have the luxury of picking times he commutes.

    Most in this thread understood that, but not you.
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  25. #75
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeyBike View Post
    FYI...after two or three visits to the path I abandoned it. I made a special visit on a relatively busy weekday intending to make a video to send to the park admimistration and to post on their facebook page now and then (they rip it down in five minutes).

    I did not want to make the vid on a weekend due to all of the children running wild. Just too risky.

    This path could be a relaxing shortcut for cycling and a great place to skate in a civilized city. Too bad. I am just getting over my disappointment slowly. I need to pretend it was never built. I can't cure stupid.
    Don't worry, the rest of New Orleans will still enjoy it, and likely, most of the other bicyclists.

    you can leave the parks to the morons and idiots.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

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