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  1. #26
    vol
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    Quote Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
    But a very common dooring scenario isn't to put the front end into the door, but to hit a glancing blow, snagging the car-side handlebar, which turns the bike toward the car, and dumps you away, or directly into the path of the traffic in the adjacent lane.
    Thanks. Will definitely keep that in mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by degnaw View Post
    Funny, that's never happened to me.
    Not so rare in NYC.

    Quote Originally Posted by noglider View Post
    If by congested, you mean there's a vehicle in front of you,
    By congested I mean there were vehicles everywhere, little space among them.
    (Evening rush hour drivers are also highly impatient.)

  2. #27
    aka Tom Reingold noglider's Avatar
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    Impatience on their part doesn't require you to move over for them. I've ridden a lot in Manhattan since 1975. Never been doored, because I ride outside the door zone. I never feel the need to ride inside it. Never been hit from behind.
    You don't read my signature anyway, do you?

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  3. #28
    vol
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    When I say they were impatient I imply they would become aggressive and swipe you.

  4. #29
    Senior Member Commodus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vol View Post
    When I say they were impatient I imply they would become aggressive and swipe you.
    You're making a common rookie mistake, and assuming that getting out of the way of drivers is safer. It isn't. They won't hit you, and taking the lane will be much safer than riding in the door zone. You will learn this for yourself in time. Good luck in the meantime.

  5. #30
    aka Tom Reingold noglider's Avatar
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    vol, I agree with Commodus. Some might swipe you, but there's nothing you can do to prevent that. Riding in the door zone won't do it. I've had drivers drive so close that it felt as if they brushed the hair on my left arm, but that's probably my nerves talking. Never been brushed so hard that it exerted force.
    You don't read my signature anyway, do you?

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  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by vol View Post
    I made clear the premise is when door zone is not avoidable.

    Taking the lane is not always possible or desirable. The situation I was in yesterday was such an example. It was a very congested street, with no room for a bike to take the lane. Even some vehicles were going between lanes. A very hectic scene that I'll try to avoid in future.
    Taking the lane is always an option. If the lane is wide enough for a car, it is plenty wide enough to avoid the door zone. It may frustrate motorists who want to go faster than you, but your safety is more important than their impatience.

  7. #32
    vol
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    Thanks all for your input and advice. I got everyone's point about avoiding the door zone and taking the lane. I realize part of the reasons that I hesitate to take the lane is because I ride relatively slow, so taking the lane will block the vehicles. But I agree in that congested situation when vehicles are also slow, taking the lane will work for me.

  8. #33
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    One thing I forgot to mention. On one way streets in NYC bicycles should keep left.

    Keep right is the law in NY state, but NYC is an exception. By keeping left, you stay clear of the busses, and door zone risks are reduced because while every car has a driver, a large percentage have no passengers, so fewer doors will ever be opened into the door zone on the left side of the street.
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    WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.

  9. #34
    vol
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    If it's a wide one-way street/avenue (e.g. Third Avenue, Manhattan), don't drivers expect bikes more likely on the rightmost lane than one the leftmost lane, especially when there is a median between the two opposite one-way sides of the street/avenue (such as Park Avenue and some parts of the Broadway in Manhattan)?

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by vol View Post
    If it's a wide one-way street/avenue (e.g. Third Avenue, Manhattan), don't drivers expect bikes more likely on the rightmost lane than one the leftmost lane, especially when there is a median between the two opposite one-way sides of the street/avenue (such as Park Avenue and some parts of the Broadway in Manhattan)?
    First of all, I said one way streets, though maybe I should have said Avenues.

    In any case my advice applies to both, but is most specifically about the avenues. NYC used to have signs saying "bicycles keep left" on all the one way avenues. (I don't know if they still do).

    It isn't so much where drivers expect bicycles, since NYC traffic is so unruly that drivers have learned to expect anything anyplace. But besides no busses, and fewer opening doors on the passenger side, riding on the left puts you closer to the driver who has better sight lines, and is better able to gauge the separation (width of his car) on his close side than far side.

    This doesn't apply to Park Ave, which is a two way street, although divided, except as you approach a left turn.

    Probably the most important skill for riding in high traffic places such as NYC is the ability to hold a line. Riders who can hold a straight line consistently are more predictable to drivers and use less road than riders with less control. IMO the key to riding in NYC traffic is good bike handling skills, such as being able to look over your shoulder without veering, and confidence. One nice thing about NY is that we probably have the narrowest speed difference between cars and bikes (except that many cyclists are faster).
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    WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.

  11. #36
    vol
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    Quote Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
    riding on the left puts you closer to the driver who has better sight lines, and is better able to gauge the separation (width of his car) on his close side than far side.
    This is something I rarely think about and need to keep reminding myself of. I don't drive, so am not used to thinking from the drivers' point of view. Thanks for pointing this out (and for your entire posts).

  12. #37
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    In NYC and many congested areas a "door zone" can be just about anywhere on the road.

    The one time I was doored was when I was taking the lane and a car stopped in the far left lane, in this case reserved for vehicles turning left, swung open the door on the passenger side of the vehicle nailing me hard in the left thigh as I passed in the middle lane at around 20+ mph. I was sent careening across another lane, hit the curb went over the handlebars and somersaulted onto a fire hydrant- it hurt.

    Turned out it was a hitch hiker, who had been freaked by the driver and hurriedly jumped out at the light. I never was able to file for any claims for my injuries and damaged frame because the guy took off like a shot. But I learned a hard lesson- any time you are in the proximity of a car the door can fly open. It is one of a dozen things to be constantly on the look out for as you ride in traffic.

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by vol View Post
    This is something I rarely think about and need to keep reminding myself of. I don't drive, so am not used to thinking from the drivers' point of view. ...
    The reason cars all over the world have the driver sitting toward the center of the road (left in most countries, RH in the UK and a few others) is to reduce the number of head on collisions on 2 way streets. It's assumed that drivers gauge distance better to the short side, so if it's good enough for the drivers, it's good enough for cyclists.

    Even though you don't drive, you have to think like the drivers around you. Whether I'd driving or cycling, I'm mentally driving the cars near me, anticipating who might move right or left based on a car stopped up the road, or who might be planning a right turn into my path. It isn't unusual for me to yell at a passing car as we approach the corner together "don't turn right" some even answer "I wasn't planning to".

    Eye contact also helps. Years ago many tractor trailers would have "if you can't see me (with a picture of a face), I can't see you" painted on the back to remind following cars of blind spots. The same applies riding on city streets. If you don't see the driver in a mirror, odds are he doesn't know you're there.

    Also watch for folks hailing taxis on your side of the street, since that could mean that a taxi will swerve across in front of you and stop (not fun).
    FB
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    WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.

  14. #39
    vol
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    Quote Originally Posted by buzzman View Post
    Turned out it was a hitch hiker, who had been freaked by the driver and hurriedly jumped out at the light.
    Wonder what caused the freaking! Glad you survived that accident!

    any time you are in the proximity of a car the door can fly open. It is one of a dozen things to be constantly on the look out for as you ride in traffic.
    Very true.

    FBinNY, thanks for elaborating the driver issue.

  15. #40
    24-Speed Machine Chris516's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
    The reason cars all over the world have the driver sitting toward the center of the road (left in most countries, RH in the UK and a few others) is to reduce the number of head on collisions on 2 way streets. It's assumed that drivers gauge distance better to the short side, so if it's good enough for the drivers, it's good enough for cyclists.

    Even though you don't drive, you have to think like the drivers around you. Whether I'd driving or cycling, I'm mentally driving the cars near me, anticipating who might move right or left based on a car stopped up the road, or who might be planning a right turn into my path. It isn't unusual for me to yell at a passing car as we approach the corner together "don't turn right" some even answer "I wasn't planning to".

    Eye contact also helps. Years ago many tractor trailers would have "if you can't see me (with a picture of a face), I can't see you" painted on the back to remind following cars of blind spots. The same applies riding on city streets. If you don't see the driver in a mirror, odds are he doesn't know you're there.

    Also watch for folks hailing taxis on your side of the street, since that could mean that a taxi will swerve across in front of you and stop (not fun).
    While what you said does make sense, regarding the possibility of head-on collision. The concern for the center of the road, is equated by a lack of concern for anything on the right side of the vehicle.

    As for thinking about the motorists' around me, that is why I 'take the lane'. So the motorist will see me in front of them, instead of having to worry about how closely they are passing pursuant to the state law. I also make a point to 'anticipate', what a motorist will do. As for the motorists' who 'enter the kingdom of hookdom', I look at the movement of the vehicle, along with seeing if they are using their turn signals. Today on my ride at one point, I was on a six-lane road(concrete divider in the middle), and I was approaching a traffic light that had a four-lane road crossing it with an entrance ramp on to the interstate. The road I was on had a turn lane on my right, where motorists' didn't have to wait for a light to change to turn on to the other road. I was waiting for some motorist to suddenly come from the lane on my left, cut in front of me, and go into the turn lane. Thankfully, That never happened. I did move from the center of my lane, to the left tire track, in anticipation of a motorist potentially thinking they could cut me off.

    On eye contact, I utilize that, too. I will shake my head 'not while staring at a motorist who is about to turn into the lane I am in. If I hear a motorist behind and feel there is an opening for them to make a safe pass, I will shake my head 'yes'. But I sometimes wonder if the motorists' behind me understand what I mean. In terms of 18-wheelers, they are supposed to have those wide mirrors that enable them to see behind the trailer of their truck.

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