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  1. #76
    Senior Member Essex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PlanoFuji View Post
    I believe they eventually did, but that particular scum bag rapped a number of other women that summer before he was caught.

    Oh, one side note. she still carries pepper spray (I can't convince her to get a CHL), but she has no illusions that it is anything but a last ditch GTH effort, unlike the internet warrior from hawaii...
    When I hear stuff like this - makes me want to carry a lethal weapon. Or magically wish I could appear on site to club the __ucker to death / cold cock them. They're all just angry mothers. Let's hope nothing like this ever happens to the people we care about. Best.

  2. #77
    Can'tre Member 3alarmer's Avatar
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    Just a FYI

    ...........*** threads, concealed carry, and the like get moved pretty quickly to the P+R.

    You really don't want this moved to the P+R, trust me on this.........
    Quote Originally Posted by The Australian Book of Atheism
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  3. #78
    Cycle Year Round CB HI's Avatar
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    Now we are really talking about ridiculous post. Clearly you need to train all the police departments in the nation about how useless pepper spray is.

    Quote Originally Posted by PlanoFuji View Post
    This is one of the most ridiculous things I've read in a while...

    Pepper spray works well on dogs for a couple of reasons. One they are animals without the ability to override their natural reactions that drugs and sentience give people. Second, one usually sprays dogs at a much greater distance than is possible with people such as in the OP...

    And no your response wasn't appropriate, it was simply typical of arm chair internet warriors... Oh, in many states, CA and NY? among others, the use of pepper spray on people has the same legal ramifications as the lethal use of a firearm does in my state. In short, spraying a group of teens with bear spray at a distance that would give you a chance of not spraying yourself is almost certainly going to result in a court room appearance on felony charges... and if you wait to they get close-enough it means you spray yourself as well and make it that much more difficult to run away--which is the only remaining LEGAL option in DC...

    In situations such as the OP, there simply isn't any good solution. The best we can learn from such things, is to avoid placing ourselves in risky situations.
    Land of the Free, Because of the Brave.

  4. #79
    Cycle Year Round CB HI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PlanoFuji View Post
    I would suggest you do a few basic web searches of pepper spray failure... It CAN work, but it doesn't ALWAYS work, people on drugs or for other reasons can shrug off its effects, at least for long enough to kill their intended victim.

    And it can disable the person using it if their attackers are upwind... or simply close-enough that the pepper cloud covers the attacker as well as the victim...
    Oh, and bear spray produces a much larger cloud than normal defensive spray, so it will get the victim as well in most human assault situations (<15 ft between attacker and victim when first deployed)... So you had better hope you recover before your attacker...
    Quote Originally Posted by meanwhile View Post
    The guy you were strawman attacking was explaining the difference between that pepper spray and bear spray: please at least try to keep track before attacking people!
    Maybe you have reading comprehension problems, as his main points were about pepper spray with a side note about bear spray, rather than a straight comparison as you claim.
    Land of the Free, Because of the Brave.

  5. #80
    Cycle Year Round CB HI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3alarmer View Post
    ...........*** threads, concealed carry, and the like get moved pretty quickly to the P+R.

    You really don't want this moved to the P+R, trust me on this.........
    So far, no one is taking their bait.
    Land of the Free, Because of the Brave.

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by PlanoFuji View Post
    You are really showing that you don't know what you are talking about. Training is not necessary (though it can help) to overcome the effect of pepper spray. Go to the library and look for law enforcement journals on the effectiveness of non-lethal options like tasers and pepper spray. There are plenty of cases where such have NO EFFECT. Pepper spray is a gone to he%% option at best, and not likely one to keep you from getting the crap beat out of you in the OP situation, indeed, it is reasonably likely to make the beating worse by ticking off the criminals. THE ONLY REASONABLE OPTION the man in the OP had was to RUN AWAY at the first sign of TROUBLE--or simply not travel in that area alone if possible.
    I've gotten hit with pepper spray, and bear spray.

    About the only person I think that could overcome bear spray is a person hopped on on meth.

    Nobody in my group was able to stand up to the bear spray. Hell, bears can't (Hence, why it's called "Bear Spray"), even when defending their cubs.

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by UberGeek View Post
    I've gotten hit with pepper spray, and bear spray.

    About the only person I think that could overcome bear spray is a person hopped on on meth.

    Nobody in my group was able to stand up to the bear spray. Hell, bears can't (Hence, why it's called "Bear Spray"), even when defending their cubs.
    You are conflating two separate conversations. The issue I raised with bear spray was that it produces a large 'cloud' and is as likely to disable/hamper the victim as it would the attacker... Well that and if it didn't disable the attackers in this case it would have served to anger them. I imagine its effectiveness would depend upon the brand and contents, much like commercially available pepper sprays.

    Defensive pepper sprays for humans are a very different animal. There effectiveness is very much dependent upon conditions and the persons used on. Although some folks, particularly internet warriors from Hawaii, seem to think they are almost magically effective... An important point to remember about pepper sprays is that in many areas, civilians are only legally allowed to possess those with a history of much less effectiveness and or reduced volume capability. While not certain, I would expect DC to be one of those places with such restrictions...

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by PlanoFuji View Post
    You are conflating two separate conversations. The issue I raised with bear spray was that it produces a large 'cloud'
    Bear spray tends to fire in a stream. Of course, the stream does dissipate about 4-6ft from the user.

  9. #84
    Senior Member meanwhile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CB HI View Post
    Now we are really talking about ridiculous post. Clearly you need to train all the police departments in the nation about how useless pepper spray is.
    This is a Fail for two reasons:

    1. Cops are not restricted to less potent sprays as civilians often are

    2. I doubt any cop would consider pepper spray as an equalizer against an attacking gang! It's a somewhat effective come-along for single troublemakers, to be used in situations like this:



    I.e. typical use: single drunk, 3 cops, no weapon or real risk to cops, lots of time - just kinder than nightsticking him.

  10. #85
    vol
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    My turn today. Was riding through Harlem today on Lenox Ave./Malcolm X Blvd. between 115th and 111th streets, passing a small crowd standing on the sidewalk, suddenly felt a heavy blow to the right side of my torso, followed by some kids' laughing. Looked up, apparently a couple of Harlem kids barely in their teens had just thrown some sizable stone(s) or whatever objects at me. Still hurts. Guess there is nothing we can do in such situation if it's not serious injury?

  11. #86
    Senior Member Essex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vol View Post
    My turn today. Was riding through Harlem today on Lenox Ave./Malcolm X Blvd. between 115th and 111th streets, passing a small crowd standing on the sidewalk, suddenly felt a heavy blow to the right side of my torso, followed by some kids' laughing. Looked up, apparently a couple of Harlem kids barely in their teens had just thrown some sizable stone(s) or whatever objects at me. Still hurts. Guess there is nothing we can do in such situation if it's not serious injury?
    Sorry to hear this. Not surprising as these little bastards are coming home earlier from school. Or cutting class.

    If you are unable to get a positive ID on the little criminals in the making you could:
    * File a report with the cops
    * Find out schools in the local area - and dig a little to see who was cutting on that day, or absent. With cops present they could pinpoint kids who are truant and wouldn't be too surprising that school administrators would have a cue on who the punks are. Probably middle school kids who are typically the worst.

    Lastly - and as you and I have mentioned - It's your turn. Sorry that it happened to you.

  12. #87
    vol
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    I was thinking of carrying some stones to throw back next time, but the stones may land on their parents standing nearby, and it would be against Martin Luther King's non-violent resistance.

    I really hate that being peaceful and minding your own business you can still get these provocations. Until now all that concerned me was to keep safe from drivers. Now there is one more thing to watch out for.

  13. #88
    Mystery Meat gitarzan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jseis View Post
    Is a ukulele player in a mandolin town and banned from all bars by the chief of police unless he leaves his strings and gravy at the front door.

  14. #89
    vol
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    Absolutely shocking! How could this happen at all! And it doesn't seem the perpetrators were being regarded as anything worse than any other killers.

  15. #90
    Bicycle Repair Man !!! Sixty Fiver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CB HI View Post
    This time it is in Washington DC.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/...b5a_story.html

    Odd there are no descriptions of the kids in either the attack on the cyclist or the Metro train.
    With a mob of 12 I'd just be looking to take one of them with me and hopefully injuring as many as possible on my way out.

    If I lived in a place where CC was allowed there would not even be a question about what would happen.

  16. #91
    Senior Member meanwhile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vol View Post
    Absolutely shocking! How could this happen at all! And it doesn't seem the perpetrators were being regarded as anything worse than any other killers.
    Well, rationally, the typical killer means to kill. These idiots just mean to knock someone unconscious. Which is bad enough, but worse than the typical murderer? Not by a long way.

  17. #92
    Senior Member meanwhile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Essex View Post
    Sorry to hear this. Not surprising as these little bastards are coming home earlier from school. Or cutting class.

    If you are unable to get a positive ID on the little criminals in the making you could:
    * File a report with the cops
    * Find out schools in the local area - and dig a little to see who was cutting on that day, or absent. With cops present they could pinpoint kids who are truant and wouldn't be too surprising that school administrators would have a cue on who the punks are.
    I thought US schools in deprived inner city areas normally have a 10-25% trunacy rate? "Pinpointing" sounds unlikely.

  18. #93
    Senior Member Essex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by meanwhile View Post
    I thought US schools in deprived inner city areas normally have a 10-25% trunacy rate? "Pinpointing" sounds unlikely.
    That depends on the area. The area where Vol was attacked probably has a fair portion of feral kids mixed amid a general population of 'regular' kids. Typically schools and their administrators are highly cognizant of absenteeism as it affects school scores. Attendance is completed before noon and calls from guidance/robo calls go out. When the overall school score dips due to truancy they call in social services / truancy officers to haul these kids in. A lot of times these students who are labeled LTA (long term absences) also have transient lives and quite hard to track down. Kids who thrown stones, involve themselves in gang activity are more likely to live in the local area. Homeless kids have other issues to deal with than throwing rocks at strangers.

    Punks like the ones that attacked Vol are well known in their local neighborhoods. And by the administrations / deans of schools and the cops. With some level of positive ID determination of the offender could be made. The thing is - how much time and energy is someone willing to put into this kind of effort? Once you catch the jerks - it's time off work to show up at the precinct, show up in court to testify, paperwork etc. And once this is all done - many of the parents of these kids will have suddenly left the area.

    If the act is truly egregious - the cops will get them. The worst one I remember in recent history are two middle schoolers throwing a shopping cart on top of a mother off a balcony - putting her in a coma. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...attackers.html

  19. #94
    Senior Member meanwhile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Essex View Post
    If the act is truly egregious - the cops will get them. The worst one I remember in recent history are two middle schoolers throwing a shopping cart on top of a mother off a balcony - putting her in a coma. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...attackers.html
    I think the moral of this story is "If the victim is from an unusually powerful and influential family, the police will make an extraordinary effort." People do worse things everyday in New York and are never caught.

  20. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by meanwhile View Post
    I think the moral of this story is "If the victim is from an unusually powerful and influential family, the police will make an extraordinary effort." People do worse things everyday in New York and are never caught.
    No the moral of the story is that if you commit an egregious crime or prank in a commercial mall with video all over you'll get caught. Possibly, since it's difficult to patrol park paths, the police can do it using video surveillance, and dispatch squads where there are numbers of suspicious folks gathering. At the very least, video provides evidence that can be used after the fact.
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  21. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by UberGeek View Post
    Bear spray tends to fire in a stream. Of course, the stream does dissipate about 4-6ft from the user.
    Yes, and those streams turn into clouds when they hit their target. And the volume a bear spray produces means a particularly large cloud...

    Also considering that 'bear' spray tends to come in fairly large cans; just how reasonable is it to carry on ones person. Also considering the regulations places like DC and CA place on civilian use of pepper spray, I doubt 'bear' spray would be any more legal than an assault weapon...

    http://mpdc.dc.gov/page/self-defense...nts-and-use-dc

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    I carry pepper spray as part of the job. I'd say you're better off trying to get away then trying to pepper spray a group of people. You're probably not going to win that one.

    Not much can be done about this until the police step up and start getting tough. Cycling in groups is a good idea as well.

    As for other weapons just make sure you know and are following the laws for the area you are riding in.

    I wonder if the cyclist in this story had a camera?

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    Another attack on a cyclist by a group of kids...

    http://www.komonews.com/news/local/C...212377511.html

    Hope the cyclist makes a full recovery from his injuries, and the attackers are brought to justice, soon! Absolutely shameful

  24. #99
    vol
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    Quote Originally Posted by NWCyclist View Post
    http://www.komonews.com/news/local/C...212377511.html

    Hope the cyclist makes a full recovery from his injuries, and the attackers are brought to justice, soon! Absolutely shameful
    Among the readers' comments were comments by "bicyclist...I am the bicyclist.", presumably the victim himself.

  25. #100
    Senior Member Essex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by meanwhile View Post
    I think the moral of this story is "If the victim is from an unusually powerful and influential family, the police will make an extraordinary effort." People do worse things everyday in New York and are never caught.
    What FBinNY said. And that's a cynical perspective.

    If you're determined enough, have some level of evidence you might be able to apprehend these feral teens. Rock throwing teens in their little gangs don't stray to far from home base. Meaning, they'll do some petty crime and on foot escape back to a local hideaway. Somewhat same with the punk skateboarders in Seattle who I am sure could be ID'd if the victim went after them a bit. Again, with school out and time on their hands to do NOTHING. Some miscreants will go about and hurt people, animals and property to satisfy the need to release anger, or for the thrills of committing a crime.

    The linchpin for all of this is evidence, and time to pursue justice. And with petty cases - not worth it. Also many of these feral teens have a rudimentary knowledge of what they can get away with. Honed by relatives who have been involved with the penal system.

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