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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    Spivonious,
    First of all, sitting behind an idling tail pipe is a significant health risk for someone who spends ~7-10 hrs a week cycling in traffic year round. I value my health far more than one-sided courtesy.
    I think you would find that the 'significant health' risk isn't any different for stopping to the right of those vehicles than it would be for stopping (you are still stopping at those intersections) behind them ,... (at a reasonable distance at least), unless you plan on sucking on their exhaust pipes directly...

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by MMACH 5 View Post
    They would then have to negotiate with the traffic in the next lane to move over and pass me again.
    When I filter during a rush hour commute I pass dozens of motorists and few (or none) of them every see me again.
    Road rash is a precious gift. Road rash is your friend. Bask in it, appreciate it, love it. Above all, learn from it. --Robert Hurst

  3. #28
    Cycle Dallas MMACH 5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    When I filter during a rush hour commute I pass dozens of motorists and few (or none) of them every see me again.
    Fair enough. You mentioned that most of the roads you ride on have a 25mph speed limit. These are very rare in the Dallas area. I could see how that would expose us to very different commuting situations.
    That's gonna leave a mark.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by PlanoFuji View Post
    I think you would find that the 'significant health' risk isn't any different for stopping to the right of those vehicles than it would be for stopping (you are still stopping at those intersections) behind them ,... (at a reasonable distance at least), unless you plan on sucking on their exhaust pipes directly...
    I tend to go to the front of a line of cars and am also very willing to violate minor traffic laws to get around a mass of idling tailpipes. In Portland I rarely, if ever, have negative feedback from motorists because most understand that there is no reason for cyclists to sit in a parking lot breathing exhaust.
    Road rash is a precious gift. Road rash is your friend. Bask in it, appreciate it, love it. Above all, learn from it. --Robert Hurst

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    Spivonious,
    First of all, sitting behind an idling tail pipe is a significant health risk for someone who spends ~7-10 hrs a week cycling in traffic year round. I value my health far more than one-sided courtesy.

    Secondly, I find it amazing that you are asking me cede legal right of way (to pass a line of vehicles on the right). Can you provide a single example of a situation where motorists routinely give up their right of way to cyclists out of "courtesy".

    Thirdly, I think you are assuming a far greater speed differential than exists for most of my cycling. I cycle at or a touch below the speed limit on most of my routes (many roads in the PDX area have 25 mph speed limits). I have absolutely no sympathy for a motorist who wants to speed at 30 in a 25. If I slow them down a bit, I consider it one of my good deeds for the day.
    It's one thing if you're coming up on the right in a shoulder or bike lane. That's perfectly legal and I do it as well. Your posts implied that you were filtering, i.e. going up through two lanes of traffic just to sit in front of the line. That's just rude (and illegal in most states).

    I have vehicles ceding their right of way to me almost every day. Maybe people are nicer in PA? Or maybe it's the way I ride.

    That's also true; my roads are all 35mph or higher, so unless stopped by traffic or a red light, the cars that pass me will never been seen again. Here in PA, it's an unspoken rule that you can go 5mph over the speed limit. I would be minorly upset at a biker going 23-25 when traffic is moving at 30-35, especially if the right edge was clear of debris and obstacles.

    I really don't like cyclist snobs, flying through town in spandex, riding down the middle of the road when there is no reason to, and always complaining about cagers and how cars ruin the planet. They make a bad image for the rest of us.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    I tend to go to the front of a line of cars and am also very willing to violate minor traffic laws to get around a mass of idling tailpipes. In Portland I rarely, if ever, have negative feedback from motorists because most understand that there is no reason for cyclists to sit in a parking lot breathing exhaust.
    This would be where your mistaken. If you sitting at a stop light among motor vehicles, YOU ARE breathing exhaust. The difference between the front of the line of cars and a reasonable distance behind a typical car (as opposed to buses which are a different matter) is negligible... And I know of no studies which differentiate the actual health risks among those two positions...

  7. #32
    Senior Member mr_pedro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spivonious View Post
    Try some empathy for a change. If I waited nicely to pass you in another lane, got half a mile ahead, hit a red light, and then had you squeezing through to get to the front of the line, I'd be pissed off and I'm a bike commuter.

    A little courtesy goes a long way.
    Why do you see it only one way? With the same reasoning you could also say that the driver has to wait behind the cyclist, otherwise the driver will be holding back the cyclist when it gets stuck in traffic up ahead.

    You see, in traffic most of the time cyclists are held back by cars and some of the time cars are held back by cyclists, but for some reason if a car is held back by a cyclist it is the end of the world.

  8. #33
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    This article would also indicate the claim that lane splitting in Oregon is legal; http://lanesplittingislegal.com/tag/...splitting-news at least if and until this bill actually passes.

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by PlanoFuji View Post
    In other words, getting into an argument with someone who has just shown at the very least certain anti-social tendencies (honking and perhaps shouting) toward another human being while they are armed behind a rather dangerous weapon (car) is simply a stupid risk. Much akin to getting into an argument with a car jacker, robber, or any other socio-path...
    And there you go again. The last time someone in a motor vehicle shouted at me, the driver apologized when I caught him at the light.

    I simply pointed out that the activity you proposed (filtering) is illegal in many areas of the country
    OR statutes specifically allow cyclists to filter on the right of a right-hand lane. I believe most states have similar statutes. Moreover, many "filtering" and "lane-splitting" statutes specifically refer to motorcycles, making lane-splitting and filtering by cyclists a legal grey area.
    Road rash is a precious gift. Road rash is your friend. Bask in it, appreciate it, love it. Above all, learn from it. --Robert Hurst

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr_pedro View Post
    You see, in traffic most of the time cyclists are held back by cars and some of the time cars are held back by cyclists, but for some reason if a car is held back by a cyclist it is the end of the world.
    It is an extremely rare situation under US traffic laws that a cyclist is held back by car traffic. And this isn't a question of cars being 'held back', but rather of a cyclist illegally leaving the travel lane to pass to the front of a waiting line of traffic, thereby requiring those just passed to pass said cyclist (legally and within the speed limit)... Because even if the roads have 25mph speed limits, the vast majority of cyclists, at least those who don't routinely ride professionally DO NOT TRAVEL AT GREATER THAN 20MPH... hence not travelling at the speed limit of most roads.

    In particular, as has been mentioned here, filtering, or using a shoulder to pass a line of cars waiting at an intersection and then moving into the lane, is illegal in most places in the US... If your riding in a bike lane or shoulder and continue to do so past the intersection one is not FILTERING.

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    And there you go again. The last time someone in a motor vehicle shouted at me, the driver apologized when I caught him at the light.



    OR statutes specifically allow cyclists to filter on the right of a right-hand lane. I believe most states have similar statutes. Moreover, many "filtering" and "lane-splitting" statutes specifically refer to motorcycles, making lane-splitting and filtering by cyclists a legal grey area.
    See post #33. Since there appears to be a current bill in Oregon to allow filtering you would be incorrect in stating that it is allowed. Travel in a shoulder is not filtering, if you stay in the shoulder--which is the law your referring to. And only two (that I am aware of) states have laws against lane splitting that are restricted to motorcycles. The others apply to any vehicle capable of such manoeuvres...

    This is simply another example of where you feel your entitled to break your traffic laws as you state in post #29...

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by PlanoFuji View Post
    It is an extremely rare situation under US traffic laws that a cyclist is held back by car traffic. And this isn't a question of cars being 'held back', but rather of a cyclist illegally leaving the travel lane to pass to the front of a waiting line of traffic, thereby requiring those just passed to pass said cyclist (legally and within the speed limit)... Because even if the roads have 25mph speed limits, the vast majority of cyclists, at least those who don't routinely ride professionally DO NOT TRAVEL AT GREATER THAN 20MPH... hence not travelling at the speed limit of most roads.

    In particular, as has been mentioned here, filtering, or using a shoulder to pass a line of cars waiting at an intersection and then moving into the lane, is illegal in most places in the US... If your riding in a bike lane or shoulder and continue to do so past the intersection one is not FILTERING.
    Interesting as many places allow for cyclists use of the shoulder just as if it is a BL... So you are saying that this case does not apply if motor vehicle traffic is backed up, and you, a cyclist is using a shoulder just as a BL, as is often allowed (and downright encouraged), to pass this backed up MV traffic situation?

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by spivonious View Post
    It's one thing if you're coming up on the right in a shoulder or bike lane. That's perfectly legal and I do it as well. Your posts implied that you were filtering, i.e. going up through two lanes of traffic just to sit in front of the line. That's just rude (and illegal in most states).
    Filtering applies to lane-splitting and passing in the right-hand lane. And as I said above the illegality of lane-splitting by cyclists is not cut and dried. In many states the only statutes that apply are the ones that deal with lane positioning (e.g. appropriate distance from a lane marker).

    I would be minorly upset at a biker going 23-25 when traffic is moving at 30-35, especially if the right edge was clear of debris and obstacles.
    I'd annoy you then.

    I really don't like cyclist snobs, flying through town in spandex, riding down the middle of the road when there is no reason to
    I prefer casual mtb- or climbing-style shorts because I have nice callouses and shammy pads annoy me.
    Last edited by spare_wheel; 06-18-13 at 02:32 PM.
    Road rash is a precious gift. Road rash is your friend. Bask in it, appreciate it, love it. Above all, learn from it. --Robert Hurst

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by PlanoFuji View Post
    It is an extremely rare situation under US traffic laws that a cyclist is held back by car traffic.
    Ever ridden much in a larger city, planofuji? I take the lane and pass slower moving car traffic every day.

    In particular, as has been mentioned here, filtering, or using a shoulder to pass a line of cars waiting at an intersection and then moving into the lane, is illegal in most places in the US... If your riding in a bike lane or shoulder and continue to do so past the intersection one is not FILTERING.
    In OR, cyclists travelling at the prevailing speed of traffic (very easy to do during rush hour) have a right to the full lane.

    Because even if the roads have 25mph speed limits, the vast majority of cyclists, at least those who don't routinely ride professionally DO NOT TRAVEL AT GREATER THAN 20MPH... hence not travelling at the speed limit of most roads.
    Its a speed limit. Let me repeat...L-I-M-I-T.
    Road rash is a precious gift. Road rash is your friend. Bask in it, appreciate it, love it. Above all, learn from it. --Robert Hurst

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by PlanoFuji View Post
    See post #33. Since there appears to be a current bill in Oregon to allow filtering you would be incorrect in stating that it is allowed. Travel in a shoulder is not filtering, if you stay in the shoulder--which is the law your referring to.
    OR and many other states allow cyclists to filter in the right lane (e.g. in between cars and parked cars or the curb) in the absence of shoulder.

    And only two (that I am aware of) states have laws against lane splitting that are restricted to motorcycles. The others apply to any vehicle capable of such manoeuvres...
    Erm...what others? Most states have no statutes that address lane splitting.
    Road rash is a precious gift. Road rash is your friend. Bask in it, appreciate it, love it. Above all, learn from it. --Robert Hurst

  16. #41
    Senior Member Keith99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by genec View Post
    Long been my attitude... The only time I filter forward is when there is a BL that allows me to move up easily and be passed just as easily... otherwise I don't filter, I fit in. At times I have even lagged back to allow cars to move up, knowing I will then have a car free commute until the next pack catches up.
    I know many streets where just after the intersection the lane is very wide and narrows down later. (Think any street with a gas station). I feel free to filter in that situation. I am then able to get 'in front' of the cars, but to the right of them.

    The thing is I'm quite happy to soft pedal rather than hammer to the point where the lane narrows.

    If instead I merged into the traffic before the light I'd be blocking everything behind me.

    Admittedly this works best with lights that are not overly long. So all the cars that make the light can easily pass me and I have a clear lane to hammer once that is done.
    Perish any man who suspects that these men either did or suffered anything unseemly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PlanoFuji View Post
    Consider an alternative hypothesis; That the vast majority of people are self-centered a%^hol&^ and react with annoyance (at best) when some creature causes them any inconvenience...

    The beauty of this hypothesis is that it doesn't restrict itself to just one class, ie' motorists... Indeed it can easily be seen to apply to other classes, such as cyclists. Just read this thread concerning filtering, or others concerning reasons for Idaho stops, riding on MUPS and dealing with pedestrians, etc...
    Refer back to the OP. Motorists got upset when a cyclist held them up by traveling at 15 mph. On the same road, motorists were not visibly upset when another motorist held them up by traveling at 15 mph. Your hypothesis has been disproven, at least in the realm of motorist behavior towards cyclists. The OP's experiment does lend support to the notion that motorists are tribal animals who see cyclists as some reviled "other".

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    Just because a sociopath somewhere attacked a cyclist does not cause me to assume my motorist neighbor is a sociopath. I am really tired of the self-serving exaggeration of cycling risk by safety nannies and cycletrackistas:

    Safety nanny: If cycling is unsafe we need more cargo-cult safety rituals and ceremonial clothing.
    Cycletrackista: If cycling is unsafe we need more physically-separated world-class cycling sidewalks.


    Cycling is very safe...so just ride!
    Does this term meet with Buzzman's approval? Can we use this term without offending the people who call for segregation? We really need some term to replace copenhagenista since I have been informed that the folks we apply it to take offense at its use.

    It's not that I mind offending people from time to time, but I prefer to do it on purpose, not by failing to understand that a particular label gives offense.

  19. #44
    Cycle Dallas MMACH 5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by B. Carfree View Post
    Refer back to the OP. Motorists got upset when a cyclist held them up by traveling at 15 mph. On the same road, motorists were not visibly upset when another motorist held them up by traveling at 15 mph. Your hypothesis has been disproven, at least in the realm of motorist behavior towards cyclists. The OP's experiment does lend support to the notion that motorists are tribal animals who see cyclists as some reviled "other".
    Not sure that his hypothesis is out and out disproven by this. There has been some discussion of the OP's behavior, aside from his rate of travel that could, possibly account for motorists' animosity toward him. I'm not saying you're wrong with calling out the tribal behavior of motorists. Just that technically, we don't have enough information to disprove PlanoFuji's hypothesis.
    That's gonna leave a mark.

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by PlanoFuji View Post
    It is an extremely rare situation under US traffic laws that a cyclist is held back by car traffic.
    It sounds like you do not commute in rush hour traffic. One of my main routes has a 35 mph limit, but during rush hour, the traffic lights are timed for 20 mph because that is the speed traffic actually travels during rush hour. Anyone motorist that squeezes by me to get to the next red light, is in fact slowing my average speed down and not saving any time for themselves.

    If they would just politely travel behind me at 20 mph, they would hit each light on a green and the motorist would save a bunch of gas by not racing to red lights at 35 mph and then coming to a complete stop.

    It seems just too hard for so many motorist (and I guess some cyclist here) to figure out that traffic lights are timed to match rush hour average flow, and that trying to travel faster is just a stupid waste and can irritate courteous cyclist, who will then ride past them to match the timing of the upcoming green light.
    Land of the Free, Because of the Brave.

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    A few points:

    1. Motorists will hate on cyclists because they believe with all their hearts that the roads, and the COUNTRY, belong to them that DRIVE. If you DRIVE 15, you're considered an ass, but you're still a fellow driver; if you ride *25*, you're still trespassing on "their" territory.

    2. IT DOES NOT MATTER what the filtering laws are in MOST states; the only filtering law that matters for ANY of us is the one in the state(s) where we ride. In my state, filtering is illegal. NOR does it matter about breathing exhaust, or anyone's 'feelings' -- you disobey the law, you are open to official resolution. Do so at your own risk.

    3. "breathing exhaust" is virtually the same on the road, no matter where you are; there are no filters in most cars, it seeps in (or blows in when the fan is running) the interior all the time. There is the unresolved debate about a faster-breathing cyclist either: a.)breathing more in by faster respiration; or b.)flushing the lungs out through the faster action of air exchange -- pick a side. (I personally prefer NOT to be enclosed with the fumes.) But sitting behind a car just focuses the STENCH, that's really all.

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by PlanoFuji View Post
    "In most US states, lane splitting is illegal with one notable exception being California.
    [/SUP]
    Filtering is legal in Virginia in many cases, not that I recommend it, in general. I do it at a particulat light where it takes 2-3 light cycles to get through and I'm turning right, or in other places where a bike lane starts just after the intersection.

    I find it rude to filter up and make everyone pass me again.

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by CB HI View Post
    It sounds like you do not commute in rush hour traffic. One of my main routes has a 35 mph limit, but during rush hour, the traffic lights are timed for 20 mph because that is the speed traffic actually travels during rush hour. Anyone motorist that squeezes by me to get to the next red light, is in fact slowing my average speed down and not saving any time for themselves.

    If they would just politely travel behind me at 20 mph, they would hit each light on a green and the motorist would save a bunch of gas by not racing to red lights at 35 mph and then coming to a complete stop.

    It seems just too hard for so many motorist (and I guess some cyclist here) to figure out that traffic lights are timed to match rush hour average flow, and that trying to travel faster is just a stupid waste and can irritate courteous cyclist, who will then ride past them to match the timing of the upcoming green light.
    I know the situation and agree... I frankly chuckle at the folks that rush up to the lights and then I come cruising along and maintain speed while they race from light to light getting frustrated at each light. I wish more lights were properly timed and synchronized... seems that little task just isn't done often enough.

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    Quote Originally Posted by B. Carfree View Post
    It's not that I mind offending people from time to time, but I prefer to do it on purpose, not by failing to understand that a particular label gives offense.
    I wish I'd thought of that term during that last debate.
    Road rash is a precious gift. Road rash is your friend. Bask in it, appreciate it, love it. Above all, learn from it. --Robert Hurst

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by DX-MAN View Post
    3. "breathing exhaust" is virtually the same on the road, no matter where you are; there are no filters in most cars, it seeps in (or blows in when the fan is running) the interior all the time. There is the unresolved debate about a faster-breathing cyclist either: a.)breathing more in by faster respiration; or b.)flushing the lungs out through the faster action of air exchange -- pick a side. (I personally prefer NOT to be enclosed with the fumes.) But sitting behind a car just focuses the STENCH, that's really all.
    Particulate exhaust operates under the laws of diffusion from a point source (think heavy smoke vs dry ice). Its diffusion is also regulated by ejection velocity and gravity. Moral of the story: do not make a habit of spending time behind a vehicle (esp diesel) unless you are interested in developing asthma, COPD, and/or cancer.
    Last edited by spare_wheel; 06-18-13 at 07:12 PM.
    Road rash is a precious gift. Road rash is your friend. Bask in it, appreciate it, love it. Above all, learn from it. --Robert Hurst

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