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  1. #51
    Al noisebeam's Avatar
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    Outwardly upset motorists due to taking the lane are so rare as to be a non issue. I very often use the full lane on 40-45mph multilane roads. Drivers see me well into the lane well in advance and those who are capable of thinking ahead merge left to pass. Those who don't find it a bit harder to get up to speed when a gap in the left lane opens up.

    My experience is that if not taking a narrow lane and instead riding far right will upset more motorists as they can't tell early it is not possible to pass safety without using the adjacent lane, but by that time it is too late for an easy merge left even for those who can think ahead.
    As to the OPs experiment, it needs more data points. I have driven slowly in my SUV and gotten honked at on same road I don't get honked at when cycling. But if a honk is 1/10000 drivers you need more test time for each mode to determine if there is a real difference.

    As to exhaust - don't stop right behind the exhaust pipe! I typically stop 6' back in the left side of lane (behind driver side), well behind exhaust which is often on the right side of vehicle. Also note if you do filter, all those cars will spew exhaust when accelerating past you which will be worse than idle exhaust.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by B. Carfree View Post
    Refer back to the OP. Motorists got upset when a cyclist held them up by traveling at 15 mph. On the same road, motorists were not visibly upset when another motorist held them up by traveling at 15 mph. Your hypothesis has been disproven, at least in the realm of motorist behavior towards cyclists. The OP's experiment does lend support to the notion that motorists are tribal animals who see cyclists as some reviled "other".
    Sorry, not dis-proven. The OP's statement that motorists were not visibly upset by cars slowing them is more indicative of the OP's world view then actuality. One only needs look at news reports of road rage among motorists to realize that such behaviour is not reserved for cyclists--they do it to themselves. The OP like other's perceive persecution of 'their' group, when the reality is that people are simply self centered and rude by nature to anyone not themselves, friends or family...

    Oh, and you overlooked the other part of the statement of mine you quoted, where I showed examples of exactly the same behaviour from cyclists on this forum when discussing Idaho stops, MUP cycling, etc...

    One does not need to resort to conspiracy theories against 'cyclists' to figure out why people get vissibly angry at anyone who causes them any inconvenience...

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by CB HI View Post
    It sounds like you do not commute in rush hour traffic. One of my main routes has a 35 mph limit, but during rush hour, the traffic lights are timed for 20 mph because that is the speed traffic actually travels during rush hour. Anyone motorist that squeezes by me to get to the next red light, is in fact slowing my average speed down and not saving any time for themselves.

    If they would just politely travel behind me at 20 mph, they would hit each light on a green and the motorist would save a bunch of gas by not racing to red lights at 35 mph and then coming to a complete stop.

    It seems just too hard for so many motorist (and I guess some cyclist here) to figure out that traffic lights are timed to match rush hour average flow, and that trying to travel faster is just a stupid waste and can irritate courteous cyclist, who will then ride past them to match the timing of the upcoming green light.
    If you, at 20 mph, are travelling at the same speed at other traffic, then by definition a car that passed you is not slowing you down, nor delaying you. So my statement that it is an EXCEEDINGLY RARE case in the US for a car to slow a cyclist is simple truth...

    Oh, and it appears that you are somewhat older (I read where you mentioned being retired), in which case you must be in the top 1/10 of 1% for your age to routinely be able to travel at 20+ mph on a bike on all terrain types in Hawaii... The vast majority of actual cyclists (as opposed to internet claims) are unable to attain such speeds, particularly when one considers that 20+ mph averages (when not in groups) are the range for professional bicycle racers... There are certainly a small minority who can routinely pedal at such speeds, but very few who can still do so at retirement age...

    For you and others, a momentary reading from your cycling computer of 20, 22, or even 30 DOES NOT mean that is your average travelling speed on a stretch of road.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by B. Carfree View Post
    Does this term meet with Buzzman's approval? Can we use this term without offending the people who call for segregation? We really need some term to replace copenhagenista since I have been informed that the folks we apply it to take offense at its use.

    It's not that I mind offending people from time to time, but I prefer to do it on purpose, not by failing to understand that a particular label gives offense.


  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by PlanoFuji View Post
    If you, at 20 mph, are travelling at the same speed at other traffic, then by definition a car that passed you is not slowing you down, nor delaying you. So my statement that it is an EXCEEDINGLY RARE case in the US for a car to slow a cyclist is simple truth...

    Oh, and it appears that you are somewhat older (I read where you mentioned being retired), in which case you must be in the top 1/10 of 1% for your age to routinely be able to travel at 20+ mph on a bike on all terrain types in Hawaii... The vast majority of actual cyclists (as opposed to internet claims) are unable to attain such speeds, particularly when one considers that 20+ mph averages (when not in groups) are the range for professional bicycle racers... There are certainly a small minority who can routinely pedal at such speeds, but very few who can still do so at retirement age...

    For you and others, a momentary reading from your cycling computer of 20, 22, or even 30 DOES NOT mean that is your average travelling speed on a stretch of road.
    I don't believe he mentioned all terrain types... I do believe it is quite possible to maintain 20MPH on a typical urban street with stop lights every 1/2 mile or so. I maintain 18MPH easily with my heavy commuter on relatively flat land... I am 57 years old. Ride a few decades and you too too may find that maintaining 18-20MPH on flat land really doesn't put you in the top 1/10 of all riders.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by PlanoFuji View Post
    If you, at 20 mph, are travelling at the same speed at other traffic, then by definition a car that passed you is not slowing you down, nor delaying you. So my statement that it is an EXCEEDINGLY RARE case in the US for a car to slow a cyclist is simple truth...

    Oh, and it appears that you are somewhat older (I read where you mentioned being retired), in which case you must be in the top 1/10 of 1% for your age to routinely be able to travel at 20+ mph on a bike on all terrain types in Hawaii... The vast majority of actual cyclists (as opposed to internet claims) are unable to attain such speeds, particularly when one considers that 20+ mph averages (when not in groups) are the range for professional bicycle racers... There are certainly a small minority who can routinely pedal at such speeds, but very few who can still do so at retirement age...

    For you and others, a momentary reading from your cycling computer of 20, 22, or even 30 DOES NOT mean that is your average travelling speed on a stretch of road.
    Where to begin?

    I guess we should start with your reading comprehension. Please quote where I said I am retired. Does that even make sense with me noting that I am cycle commuting?

    Why be insulting, implying I do not know the difference between a momentary 20 mph reading on a cycle computer and an average speed of 20 mph for at least a couple miles. Since I have done a century ride in 4 hours and 55 minutes, I am capable of understanding what a 20 mph average speed for a distance is.

    So I guess I can be insulting in return - You cannot maintain 20 mph on a flat urban road? Now I know you do not cycle commute. On the road I am talking about, the only thing that keeps me from going 22 mph on that section of road are the normal headwinds. I am not special, lots of folks can maintain my speed over a few miles. Several in the 50+ forum can do it.

    PS - Pro riders can maintain 30 mph for quite a distance.

    Quote Originally Posted by PlanoFuji View Post
    If you, at 20 mph, are travelling at the same speed at other traffic, then by definition a car that passed you is not slowing you down, nor delaying you. So my statement that it is an EXCEEDINGLY RARE case in the US for a car to slow a cyclist is simple truth...
    Please stop and think for a minute.

    If they simply maintain 20 mph, then we all get through the intersections at the average road speed that the lights are timed for without ever having to slow down or stop.

    If I have 5 cars race past me only to stop at the next red light, then they back up half a block waiting for the light to turn green and I have to slow for them mid-block, rather than being able to just travel that half block at 20 mph reaching the intersection just after the light turns green. So yes, motorist fast / stop knee jerk reaction slows me down considerably and forces everyone into an unnecessary acceleration.
    Last edited by CB HI; 06-18-13 at 11:10 PM.

  7. #57
    Al noisebeam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CB HI View Post
    If I have 5 cars race past me only to stop at the next red light, then they back up half a block waiting for the light to turn green and I have to slow for them mid-block, rather than being able to just travel that half block at 20 mph reaching the intersection just after the light turns green. So yes, motorist fast / stop knee jerk reaction slows me down considerably and forces everyone into an unnecessary acceleration.
    But you know it will happen so there is no need to race to catch the back of the line, you can get there just as the back is accelerating and smooth out the dips.

    Correct, cruising speeds 20+ are not an issue for many 55+ cyclists.

  8. #58
    24-Speed Machine Chris516's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PlanoFuji View Post
    Consider an alternative hypothesis; That the vast majority of people are self-centered a%^hol&^ and react with annoyance (at best) when some creature causes them any inconvenience...

    The beauty of this hypothesis is that it doesn't restrict itself to just one class, ie' motorists... Indeed it can easily be seen to apply to other classes, such as cyclists. Just read this thread concerning filtering, or others concerning reasons for Idaho stops, riding on MUPS and dealing with pedestrians, etc...
    True

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by noisebeam View Post
    But you know it will happen so there is no need to race to catch the back of the line, you can get there just as the back is accelerating and smooth out the dips.

    Correct, cruising speeds 20+ are not an issue for many 55+ cyclists.
    Which still slows my average speed down considerably waiting for them to clear out and get up to speed. Dispelling the notion that it is cyclist slowing motorist down rather than the opposite.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CB HI View Post
    Which still slows my average speed down considerably waiting for them to clear out and get up to speed. Dispelling the notion that it is cyclist slowing motorist down rather than the opposite.
    It happens to me often. They pass because, well they can't just stay behind a bike, right? Then I'm waiting on them at the lights and stop signs.
    I have a spot where I'll go a mile or so through town and if it works out right I will have 50 cars (guessing) pass me on the left. This is also on the highway leading up the in town section. When it's congested most of them will be waiting at the light. I generally pass them on the left just as they did with me to make sure I make it through on the first green light.
    Last edited by Metal Man; 06-19-13 at 07:17 AM.

  11. #61
    Seņior Member ItsJustMe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    Do you really think that I am going to sit parked behind your tail pipe breathing in your vehicle's toxic and environment-degrading emissions at a traffic signal because I am concerned about your feelings?
    I certainly don't. I sit there breathing the exhaust because those are the rules under which we agree to use the public roadways.
    Work: the 8 hours that separates bike rides.

  12. #62
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noisebeam View Post
    But you know it will happen so there is no need to race to catch the back of the line, you can get there just as the back is accelerating and smooth out the dips.

    Correct, cruising speeds 20+ are not an issue for many 55+ cyclists.
    Well, I don't know if I'd call it "cruising speed..." I sure tend to break a sweat at that speed.

    But certainly many long time cyclists can hold 20 for quite a distance... hills and stoplights get in the way of holding that speed over an entire commute... and my average (recorded on a bike computer) tends to be 16MPH.

    Fully loaded with 2 panniers of gear, I find that on flats I can hold 17MPH quite well, and average 13MPH.

  13. #63
    Al noisebeam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CB HI View Post
    Which still slows my average speed down considerably waiting for them to clear out and get up to speed. Dispelling the notion that it is cyclist slowing motorist down rather than the opposite.
    It's called sharing the road - it's not just for you, but everyone, so when it gets busy everyone, including you, gets slowed.
    Didn't know there was such a notion needing dispelling.

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by CB HI View Post
    PS - Pro riders can maintain 30 mph for quite a distance.
    Pro riders can maintain 30+ when riding in groups over certain terrain and wind conditions. Groups, even small ones, significantly reduce the power requirements (as much as 50%) for riding at higher speeds. When riding ALONE, pro riders more typically average 20-25 MPH over long distances. Curiously those numbers are not from urban areas where traffic signals require frequent stopping, and likely further reduce a pro riders average speeds as well... Fast amateurs, are much more likely to AVERAGE in the 15-18 mph range. Indeed an amateur who can AVERAGE 20+ mph, particular in urban stop and start areas, is at the very least a contender for a job as a domestique in the pro pelaton...

    Only internet warriors seem to believe that because their cycle computers occasionally report numbers that begin with a 2, they therefore are AVERAGING 20+ mph. After all if posts on this forum were truthful, then many (if not most) of the posters on this forum would be contenders for winning the Tour de france...

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by nd2010 View Post
    There's a road with 3 lanes in each direction and no shoulder for a few miles. The speed limit is 40 and there are plenty of lights. I take the right lane on my bike and go 15 mph. Most people just choose one of the other two lanes to pass me well in advance. But there are almost always a few idiots who honk. One time there was someone who leaned on his horn and followed me even though the middle lane was clear. I just laughed when he cursed at me.

    So I tried an experiment. I drove my car at a maximum of 15 mph in the right lane. No one honked, and everyone changed lanes. That was the case for three different trials in my car.

    Why do people get angry about a bike going "slow" in the right lane, but not a car going slow (or sometimes even a bus stopped in the right lane to pick up passengers). At least on a bike I can keep a higher average speed than a bus in the right lane or my slow moving car, since I can filter forward at red lights but a car or bus can't do that.

    There is a section of Commonwealth Avenue in Boston, which runs between Massachusetts Avenue and Arlington Street, that has a long history of illegally double parked cars in the right lane of the two lanes going east. I could be moving down Commonwealth Avenue in the lane at just below the speed of motor traffic and have cars buzz me as they pass, occasionally honking, basically aggressing me for "taking the lane". Yet, if these same cars come upon an illegally double parked vehicle in the same lane they simply go around it as if it is no big deal. This has always perplexed me as to why a completely stopped vehicle, often a delivery truck, is "acceptable" despite its illegality while a cyclist legally taking the lane is treated as a nuisance by a fair proportion of drivers.

    I began to count the double parked vehicles and the average was 11 in the one mile stretch. Now the city has added a bike lane, wisely in my opinion, on the far left of the road. When riding in the bike lane the double parked vehicles are not an issue and its pretty smooth sailing.

    But certainly these observations are evidence of what is often referred to as a bias on the part of drivers with regards cyclists. It is something to bear in mind that despite the legality and the common sense of "taking the lane" it can be met with resistance and hostility by some drivers.

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by ItsJustMe View Post
    I certainly don't. I sit there breathing the exhaust because those are the rules under which we agree to use the public roadways.
    http://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/811.415c:

    Overtaking and passing upon the right is permitted if the overtaking vehicle is a bicycle
    that may safely make the passage under the existing conditions.


    According to an ODOT study: "The Oregon code relevant to lane-sharing is as follows: 814.240 Motorcycle or moped unlawful passing; penalty"

    http://www.oregon.gov/ODOT/TD/TP_RES...ne_sharing.pdf

    There is no law banning lane splitting by bicyclists in OR. Moreover, since I have split lanes in the presence of law enforcement officers many times it is de facto tolerated. (My commute route passes police HQ and two courthouses).
    Last edited by spare_wheel; 06-19-13 at 11:44 AM.
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  17. #67
    Al noisebeam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PlanoFuji View Post
    Indeed an amateur who can AVERAGE 20+ mph,
    particular in urban stop and start areas,
    You describe me, below a 20mph average for my commute with lights every 1/2 to 1mi is a slow ride, either tired or headwind. 21+ means a good one.
    Quote Originally Posted by PlanoFuji View Post
    is at the very least a contender for a job as a domestique in the pro pelaton....
    You don't describe me.

  18. #68
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    It seems to me that where you ride largely determines how vehicular traffic treats and views cyclists. In my immediate area a significant minority of drivers are impatient, hostile and aggressive, routinely (usually two or more times per ride), putting myself and other drivers in danger in order to avoid being held up for even a handful of seconds.

    Verbal abuse is standard and I have even been spit at. Once a week or so I get buzzed on purpose and dangerously close passes are routine. Recently going down a hill at 40 mph I had a guy pass me within a foot, pull in front of me and jam on the brakes.

    Head an hour south or west of me and the whole situation changes. I can ride all day without a problem. If you don't have any problems with drivers where you ride be thankful. And let me know where you live so if I ever move, I consider your area!

  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by PlanoFuji View Post
    Pro riders can maintain 30+ when riding in groups over certain terrain and wind conditions. Groups, even small ones, significantly reduce the power requirements (as much as 50%) for riding at higher speeds. When riding ALONE, pro riders more typically average 20-25 MPH over long distances. Curiously those numbers are not from urban areas where traffic signals require frequent stopping, and likely further reduce a pro riders average speeds as well... Fast amateurs, are much more likely to AVERAGE in the 15-18 mph range. Indeed an amateur who can AVERAGE 20+ mph, particular in urban stop and start areas, is at the very least a contender for a job as a domestique in the pro pelaton...

    Only internet warriors seem to believe that because their cycle computers occasionally report numbers that begin with a 2, they therefore are AVERAGING 20+ mph. After all if posts on this forum were truthful, then many (if not most) of the posters on this forum would be contenders for winning the Tour de france...
    Average speeds are irrelevant. The AVERAGE speed on my better half's prius is in the low 30s.

    Cruising speeds of 20 are common in PDX. In fact being able to ride 10 miles in 30 minutes is the traditional are you ready to be a Cat 5 human crayon threshold.
    Road rash is a precious gift. Road rash is your friend. Bask in it, appreciate it, love it. Above all, learn from it. --Robert Hurst

  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    Particulate exhaust operates under the laws of diffusion from a point source (think heavy smoke vs dry ice). Its diffusion is also regulated by ejection velocity and gravity. Moral of the story: do not make a habit of spending time behind a vehicle (esp diesel) unless you are interested in developing asthma, COPD, and/or cancer.
    You cannot say that categorically, as some vehicles exhaust to the right, some to the left and some to the rear... The best solution is just give the vehicle a good setback and you will be better off, for a variety of reasons.

  21. #71
    Al noisebeam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by genec View Post
    You cannot say that categorically, as some vehicles exhaust to the right, some to the left and some to the rear... The best solution is just give the vehicle a good setback and you will be better off, for a variety of reasons.
    exactly

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by genec View Post
    You cannot say that categorically, as some vehicles exhaust to the right, some to the left and some to the rear... The best solution is just give the vehicle a good setback and you will be better off, for a variety of reasons.
    There is often no rearward setback during commuting hours.
    IMO, cyclists (and motorists) do not properly assess the huge health risks of vehicle pollution:
    http://www.stateoftheair.org/2013/he...-particle.html

    By legally jumping the cue and/or clearing intersections I also significantly limit my time-based exposure to the outrageous levels of pollution* found in downtown PDX :
    http://projects.oregonlive.com/pollution/

    *largely from motor vehicles
    Road rash is a precious gift. Road rash is your friend. Bask in it, appreciate it, love it. Above all, learn from it. --Robert Hurst

  23. #73
    Al noisebeam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    There is often no rearward setback during commuting hours
    ? the choice is entirely yours

  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by noisebeam View Post
    ? the choice is entirely yours
    Exactly what I was going to say... Where you stop is your choice... no one else controls the distance between you and the vehicle directly in front of you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by noisebeam View Post
    ? the choice is entirely yours
    when i leave work at 5ish it can take 30+ minutes to clear the multiple traffic jams that form downtown. i occasionally fiilter by cyclists who are parked in a lane completely surrounded by motorists on my way home. imo, this kind of behavior is thoroughly masochistic. if you do not want to assert your right to filter out of a traffic jam, then please simply walk your bike.
    Road rash is a precious gift. Road rash is your friend. Bask in it, appreciate it, love it. Above all, learn from it. --Robert Hurst

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