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  1. #76
    Cycle Year Round CB HI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noisebeam View Post
    It's called sharing the road - it's not just for you, but everyone, so when it gets busy everyone, including you, gets slowed.
    Didn't know there was such a notion needing dispelling.
    Sharing the road would be everyone working to get through quicker. The folks that race to the red, slow everyone down. The people that try to swerve between lanes to get one more car ahead, cause traffic to flex which slows everyone down. If motorist would just flow at the setting of the sequenced traffic lights, then they share the road and help all users.

    Your vision is not sharing the road.
    Land of the Free, Because of the Brave.

  2. #77
    Cycle Year Round CB HI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PlanoFuji View Post
    Pro riders can maintain 30+ when riding in groups over certain terrain and wind conditions. Groups, even small ones, significantly reduce the power requirements (as much as 50%) for riding at higher speeds. When riding ALONE, pro riders more typically average 20-25 MPH over long distances. Curiously those numbers are not from urban areas where traffic signals require frequent stopping, and likely further reduce a pro riders average speeds as well... Fast amateurs, are much more likely to AVERAGE in the 15-18 mph range. Indeed an amateur who can AVERAGE 20+ mph, particular in urban stop and start areas, is at the very least a contender for a job as a domestique in the pro pelaton...

    Only internet warriors seem to believe that because their cycle computers occasionally report numbers that begin with a 2, they therefore are AVERAGING 20+ mph. After all if posts on this forum were truthful, then many (if not most) of the posters on this forum would be contenders for winning the Tour de france...
    NO one who can only average 20 mph, is going to make pro.

    There are a number of non-racer cyclist that average 20 mph in century rides while still obeying traffic signal and riding into the wind for half the ride

    Quote Originally Posted by PlanoFuji View Post
    Indeed an amateur who can AVERAGE 20+ mph, particular in urban stop and start areas, is at the very least a contender for a job as a domestique in the pro pelaton....
    Pure crap, stop making this stuff up.
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  3. #78
    Senior Member dougmc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nd2010 View Post
    Why do people get angry about a bike going "slow" in the right lane, but not a car going slow
    Just so there's no confusion ... people get angry about both situations.

  4. #79
    Member coney46's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UberGeek View Post
    I can't imagine why. I do believe in NYS that's the law, for how cyclists are to proceed.
    No that is not correct. In NYS it is illegal to go through a red light.

  5. #80
    Senior Member gcottay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nd2010 View Post
    . . . Most people just choose one of the other two lanes to pass me well in advance. But there are almost always a few idiots who honk . . .
    It's well documented that in all parts of the known world there are a few people who suffer from mental problems. Some of those, it seems, drive.
    George
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  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by coney46 View Post
    No that is not correct. In NYS it is illegal to go through a red light.
    I don't disagree. I was talking about filtering to the light, which is how cyclists are supposed to ride (If filtering means riding AFRAP, and moving alongside the first vehicle). I could be wrong on that, however.

  7. #82
    Al noisebeam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CB HI View Post
    Sharing the road would be everyone working to get through quicker. The folks that race to the red, slow everyone down. The people that try to swerve between lanes to get one more car ahead, cause traffic to flex which slows everyone down. If motorist would just flow at the setting of the sequenced traffic lights, then they share the road and help all users.

    Your vision is not sharing the road.
    I haven't stated my vision. You idea of everyone working together for efficiency is a great ideal, but not reality. Drivers not taking advantage of timed lights happens everywhere and affects all drivers who want to (more so when I am motoring than cycling typically), one can only whine and fuss about it as there is nothing that can be done to change that group behavior, or one can acknowledge that others are not as perfect and make it work for you as best you can, which usually means hanging back and catching the rabbits at every light (whether driving car or bike)

  8. #83
    Cycle Year Round CB HI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noisebeam View Post
    I haven't stated my vision. You idea of everyone working together for efficiency is a great ideal, but not reality. Drivers not taking advantage of timed lights happens everywhere and affects all drivers who want to (more so when I am motoring than cycling typically), one can only whine and fuss about it as there is nothing that can be done to change that group behavior, or one can acknowledge that others are not as perfect and make it work for you as best you can, which usually means hanging back and catching the rabbits at every light (whether driving car or bike)
    Yet you claim that is 'sharing the road'.

    Seems like filtering would be just as equally 'sharing the road'.
    Land of the Free, Because of the Brave.

  9. #84
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    I live in a rural area. There's a significant percentage of drivers out here that are just IDIOTS about bikes on roads. For my own safety I stay off the roads I have found to be problematic- generally where there's no shoulder and a high speed limit.

    To do my current favorite 30-miler I have to do about 3/4 mile on one of the abovementioned Hell Roads. Having had a few near-death experiences on that section, where a car (actually usually a truck) coming behind me creates that wonderful situation where he, me, and the car coming the other way all converge in one place, usually resulting in the car passing me crossing the centerline and the car coming the other way running it's outside tires off the pavement. At which point I've literally seen the look on the offending driver's face as they realize "oh [bleep], I've made a dooty!" But by then it's too late.

    It boggles my mind. They are in a CAR. For them to slow down until they can safely pass, then pass, requires them to move their foot acouple inches and press lightly. Yet they can't/won't do it.

    I've given up on being nice. If I see that situation developing, I take the lane, and make the guy behind me wait until they can pass safely. It's a rare occurrence but I'll do it. It does anger people. Well, me getting turned into bloody goo and splinters of bone angers ME. Fug 'em.

    I'll also do this on blind corners, where these same idiot drivers will start to pass, then get that same damn "oops! I'm making a dooty!" look on their face as they get halfway around. Of course, their plan- whether they realize it or not- is to swerve back into ME to avoid the head-on if a car should appear on this blind corner, saving them, but again rendering me dead.

    I'm pretty militant about asserting my rights at times when my life is at stake.
    Last edited by Long Tom; 06-22-13 at 02:21 PM.

  10. #85
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    WOW
    OP- when I drive slowly-I hyper mile-I most certainly do get folks riding my tailpipe-tailgating me
    and they certainly do honk flash their headlights
    and this is perhaps gliding down to 28mph in a 35 mph speed limit road
    Or doing a steady 64 mph on a multilane 70 mph hy.
    Everyone who drives a car has been tailgated-on single lane roads and multilane interstates-while in the right lane-
    Yeah-hug my tailgate-in the large old beat up 1998 Suburban(low use evacuation trip vehicle) or the much smaller car.
    Yeah-people tailgate honk ***** flash lights-always have.

  11. #86
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phoebeisis View Post
    WOW
    OP- when I drive slowly-I hyper mile-I most certainly do get folks riding my tailpipe-tailgating me
    and they certainly do honk flash their headlights
    and this is perhaps gliding down to 28mph in a 35 mph speed limit road
    Or doing a steady 64 mph on a multilane 70 mph hy.
    Everyone who drives a car has been tailgated-on single lane roads and multilane interstates-while in the right lane-
    Yeah-hug my tailgate-in the large old beat up 1998 Suburban(low use evacuation trip vehicle) or the much smaller car.
    Yeah-people tailgate honk ***** flash lights-always have.
    LOL

    I find I get tailgated while doing 70MPH on the interstate where the speed limit is 65MPH. Of course around here, tailgating is common... it is as if there is no such thing as a "2 second rule."

  12. #87
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    2 second rule-ha,ha-
    Current drivers-and drivers from most other eras-couldn't begin to calculate what 2 seconds means in terms of distance at 60 mph.
    Yeah Hypermilers constantly complain about being tailgated AT the speed limit-on multilane roads interstates-while in slow lane!!
    I see your California freeways on the news-when you folks are having one of your "car chases"-the regular drivers are doing 55-60-maybe 2,3 car lengths apart(40-50 feet~ 1/2 second) while the "suspect" is blowing by at 100 mph or so!! Yeah-you guys really entertain the rest of the country with your car chases!!
    Not that idiots anywhere else observe any 2 second rule-
    1/2 second rule is about what I see.

  13. #88
    Senior Member Notso_fastLane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by genec View Post
    LOL

    I find I get tailgated while doing 70MPH on the interstate where the speed limit is 65MPH. Of course around here, tailgating is common... it is as if there is no such thing as a "2 second rule."
    Are you in the left lane?

  14. #89
    Daily Rider Robert C's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tandem427 View Post
    I ride distinctive bikes (recumbents) so when drivers see me again, they remember me. I want my encounters with other vehicles to be confident, friendly, consistent, and respectful. I think it's cool when many of the local 18-wheelers and dump trucks honk and wave (5-finger) when they pass me going in the opposite direction because they know I'll work with them and not against them.
    My daughter has recently started riding a recumbent and has noticed that the treatment she gets from drivers is much different. She feels that people are much more curtious to her on a recuimbent.
    As a nation we still continue to enjoy a literally unprecedented prosperity; and it is probable that only reckless speculation and disregard of legitimate business methods on the part of the business world can materially mar this prosperity. Theodore Roosevelt, Sixth Annual Message, December 3, 1906

  15. #90
    vol
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert C View Post
    My daughter has recently started riding a recumbent and has noticed that the treatment she gets from drivers is much different. She feels that people are much more curtious to her on a recuimbent.
    Is this in China or the U.S.?

  16. #91
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Notso_fastLane View Post
    Are you in the left lane?
    Nope. Rarely drive in the far left lane... that is the lane full of "suicide train" drivers, you know, the motorists doing well over 70 and driving almost on the bumper of the car ahead...

    When I take the freeway I usually drive in the middle two lanes (4 lanes either way). The right lane is for entering and exiting the freeway, the left lane is for idiots determined to die in a horrible rear end collision pile up.

  17. #92
    Cycle Year Round CB HI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by genec View Post
    Nope. Rarely drive in the far left lane... that is the lane full of "suicide train" drivers, you know, the motorists doing well over 70 and driving almost on the bumper of the car ahead...

    When I take the freeway I usually drive in the middle two lanes (4 lanes either way). The right lane is for entering and exiting the freeway, the left lane is for idiots determined to die in a horrible rear end collision pile up.
    But at some point, the left laners have to move right to exit. Too bad we cannot keep the left laners in the left lane forever.
    Land of the Free, Because of the Brave.

  18. #93
    Daily Rider Robert C's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vol View Post
    Is this in China or the U.S.?

    In the U.S. To be precise, in the Salt Lake City area.
    As a nation we still continue to enjoy a literally unprecedented prosperity; and it is probable that only reckless speculation and disregard of legitimate business methods on the part of the business world can materially mar this prosperity. Theodore Roosevelt, Sixth Annual Message, December 3, 1906

  19. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert C View Post
    My daughter has recently started riding a recumbent and has noticed that the treatment she gets from drivers is much different. She feels that people are much more curtious to her on a recuimbent.
    I wonder if this is because of some stereotype...like recumbent riders being perceived as older men, rather than racer wannabes?
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    Quote Originally Posted by PlanoFuji View Post
    The wiki cite I posted is correct for the two states I have spent the most time in (Texas and Florida). Perhaps you can provide some actual evidence of your claim?
    Wrong. I'm quite familiar with Texas motorcycle laws, and unless there's been a recent change, lane splitting is not addressed, therefore it is neither legal or illegal. In the absence of specific criteria, a police officer exercises their discretion and could cite reckless driving, failure to maintain lane, etc.

    Most Texans also don't know that it's legal for motorcyclists to ride in HOV lanes, and bus only lanes.
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  21. #96
    Senior Member dougmc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bike Rat View Post
    Wrong. I'm quite familiar with Texas motorcycle laws, and unless there's been a recent change, lane splitting is not addressed, therefore it is neither legal or illegal. In the absence of specific criteria, a police officer exercises their discretion and could cite reckless driving, failure to maintain lane, etc.
    If no law makes it illegal, it's legal.

    That said, this page from DPS says this --

    19. Can I ride my motorcycle between cars in traffic?

    The law doesn't specifically say one way or the other, but there are several statutes that may come to bear depending upon the circumstances, i.e. right of way, obligation to drive in a single lane, signal intention, passing with safety, etc. Motorcycles are considered equally as cars regarding traffic laws, so the single lane, signal intention and other statutes in the Transportation Code could come in to play.

    The main statute that makes "lane splitting" illegal is Transportation Code Section 545.060, entitled "Driving on Roadway Laned for Traffic."

    • An operator on a roadway divided into two or more clearly marked lanes for traffic:
    • shall drive as nearly practical entirely within a single lane; and
    • may not move from the lane unless that movement can be made safely
    ... seems pretty straightforward. Lane splitting does *not* have you driving as nearly as practical in a single lane.

  22. #97
    Daily Rider Robert C's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bike Rat View Post
    I wonder if this is because of some stereotype...like recumbent riders being perceived as older men, rather than racer wannabes?
    I don't think it has to do with the racer image, as much as we would like that to be true. It has more to do with the bum image. When a person sees a bicyclist, on a transportation bicycle they assume the rider is a bum (whatever that word means in your mind); or, someone who has lost their right to drive. We don't like to say it; but, we all know this is what a lot of people think when they see a transportation cyclist.

    On the other hand, a recumbent is likely being ridden by choice, probably the choice of a kook; but, a choice all the same. Further, most bents look expensive, thus indicating that the rider may be a member of their own social class.
    As a nation we still continue to enjoy a literally unprecedented prosperity; and it is probable that only reckless speculation and disregard of legitimate business methods on the part of the business world can materially mar this prosperity. Theodore Roosevelt, Sixth Annual Message, December 3, 1906

  23. #98
    Daily Rider Robert C's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vol View Post
    Is this in China or the U.S.?
    To add a bit to my reply to this question, in comparison cycling in the US is wonderful. That is the reality of it. In China cyclists simply do not exist unless they are in the way. You might think people in America do not look for cyclists; but it does not compare to the psychopathic inattention of the Chinese drivers.

    Add to that the "quaint" American practice of using headlights. In China a motorists will turn on their headlights only if they, just plain, can not see. Buses and dump-trucks run around at night with no headlights. Last night I was nearly hit by a motor-scooter speeding along in the bike path, on the wrong side of the road, with no headlights (yes, I know, I am in China, I should have expected it). I could go on; but the main issue is that, quite literally, bicyclists have no rights. The legal assumption is that a person in a car is "more important" (the direct translation given to me). I am always happy to ride in the US, where people are generally polite and tend to obey the law.
    As a nation we still continue to enjoy a literally unprecedented prosperity; and it is probable that only reckless speculation and disregard of legitimate business methods on the part of the business world can materially mar this prosperity. Theodore Roosevelt, Sixth Annual Message, December 3, 1906

  24. #99
    Roadmaster Snobbery Club bhtooefr's Avatar
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    A few things:

    20 mph averages may actually be easier for urban cyclists in traffic than professional racers. You get much more benefit from a SUV pulling than from a cyclist pulling, as long as the SUV doesn't break away, whereas in a race, there's no SUV pulling the peloton.

    Also, recumbents change things, velomobiles change things even more. (But, velomobiles tend to do poorly in urban environments, due to the weight.)

    Recumbent perception may also be the disabled factor - nobody wants to be the guy to run over the "disabled" guy. I mean, my trike looks like it might be a fast motorized wheelchair or something, if you can't see the pedals. The overall thought from most motorists, from sight to passing, is probably something along the lines of: "WHAT THE HELL IS THAT? Oh, looks like a fancy wheelchair. And the guy's dressed for work. Poor guy, he must not be able get around without doing this. I'll be nice."

    I actually get buzzed a lot more on my folding bike than I do on my trike. Hell, I think I've been buzzed more times in my car (seriously, I got buzzed in my car twice in one day when turning into my apartment's parking lot, two other motorists didn't change lanes to pass me fully) than on my trike.

    Also, I stay behind cars. My commute route doesn't involve much opportunity to get caught behind a car, but there's a couple points where I do. I don't filter ahead (even if I wanted to, I couldn't, because trike, and I have to set up to get into a left turn lane, it's best to do this while controlling the lane anyway), I sit there and deal with it.
    Last edited by bhtooefr; 07-16-13 at 04:20 AM.
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  25. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by dougmc View Post
    If no law makes it illegal, it's legal.

    That said, this page from DPS says this --
    19. Can I ride my motorcycle between cars in traffic?

    The law doesn't specifically say one way or the other, but there are several statutes that may come to bear depending upon the circumstances, i.e. right of way, obligation to drive in a single lane, signal intention, passing with safety, etc. Motorcycles are considered equally as cars regarding traffic laws, so the single lane, signal intention and other statutes in the Transportation Code could come in to play.

    The main statute that makes "lane splitting" illegal is Transportation Code Section 545.060, entitled "Driving on Roadway Laned for Traffic."


    • An operator on a roadway divided into two or more clearly marked lanes for traffic:
    • shall drive as nearly practical entirely within a single lane; and
    • may not move from the lane unless that movement can be made safely
    ... seems pretty straightforward. Lane splitting does *not* have you driving as nearly as practical in a single lane.
    I'm not a lawyer but I'd have thought "shall drive as nearly practical entirely within a single lane" requires drivers to keep a vehicle in one lane rather than straddling two lanes, i.e. not driving right down the middle taking up both lanes when there are two lanes going the same way. "As nearly practical" seems to provide an exception for things like overtaking manouevres where it's necessary to straddle both lanes while moving from one to the other.

    If you've got a wide lane and you're passing other vehicles that are in the same lane as you are, and your (narrow) vehicle remains entirely within one lane (even if it is the same lane as the other vehicle) then it would seem you're complying with the requirement to "drive entirely within a single lane".

    If you've got two lines of stationary traffic then riding along the white line down the middle could be argued to violate the "entirely within a single lane" but if you were to move from one side to the other you could easily argue that you were staying within one lane except when you changed lanes, and you only moved from the lane when that movement could be made safely.
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