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Old 07-07-13, 02:29 PM   #301
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Just a thought. Holland is less than 1/3 the size of Iowa ( smallest state west of the Mississippi river) and Iowa is full of hills. should be able to ride about anything that far!
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Old 07-07-13, 02:31 PM   #302
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I wasn't referring to weight, just the standard one speed many Dutch bikes come with.
The majority of new city bikes I see online are available with gears.

Currently, I ride a heavy singlespeed everywhere I go, and it's certainly not flat around here. Climbing without gears isn't really that big a deal.
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Old 07-07-13, 02:32 PM   #303
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Welcome to the USA. In many jurisdictions, the LEOs are fairly clueless about bike laws, so that's a risk you take regardless of the location or laws. It doesn't mean that the exceptions to the "use the bike lane" laws aren't there.
There ya go. Get a ticket, still have to go to court to fight it.

Just in case you missed it, here's a satirical video that made the rounds on BF a while back.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzE-IMaegzQ
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Old 07-07-13, 02:34 PM   #304
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There ya go. Get a ticket, still have to go to court to fight it.
Yep, that's the way it works, no matter what the bike laws are. It certainly isn't legitimate justification to not install bicycle infrastructure.
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Old 07-07-13, 02:35 PM   #305
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The majority of new city bikes I see online are available with gears.

Currently, I ride a heavy singlespeed everywhere I go, and it's certainly not flat around here. Climbing without gears isn't really that big a deal.
Whatever, nice to have that kind of strength, and knees to go with it.

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Old 07-07-13, 02:43 PM   #306
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Yep, that's the way it works, no matter what the bike laws are. It certainly isn't legitimate justification to not install bicycle infrastructure.
Who said I was against the addition of cycling infrastructure? It's making it mandatory to ride in it, and having to go to court to prove otherwise, that I have issue with.
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Old 07-07-13, 02:49 PM   #307
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Whatever, nice to that kind of strength, and knees to go with it.
Actually, I have a bum knee. Riding a bike uphill doesn't bother it nearly as much as climbing stairs, but I do feel it.

Don't get me wrong, there are times I'd prefer having gears, but it isn't a big enough factor to keep me from riding where I want to ride.
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Old 07-07-13, 02:53 PM   #308
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Who said I was against the addition of cycling infrastructure?
It wasn't you who said it. B. Carfree seems to be concerned that additional bicycle infrastructure will force him off the road, but there isn't any reason to believe that to be the case.
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Old 07-07-13, 03:02 PM   #309
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Don't get me wrong, there are times I'd prefer having gears, but it isn't a big enough factor to keep me from riding where I want to ride.
I won't stop riding if I had only one gear either, but since I'm able have an option of multiple gears, then I'm going use it based on my commuting needs, plus it's easier on my body as well.

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Old 07-07-13, 03:05 PM   #310
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but there isn't any reason to believe that to be the case.
maybe in springfield, mo this is the case but its simply not the case in potland or eugene (~10% ACS mode share). some of the most conflict prone parts of my commute are regions where i avoid poorly-designed cycle tracks and have to suffer the honks and insults of misinformed motorists.
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Old 07-07-13, 03:05 PM   #311
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It wasn't you who said it. B. Carfree seems to be concerned that additional bicycle infrastructure will force him off the road, but there isn't any reason to believe that to be the case.
I can see this issue to a degree, especially with the thought of having to deal with a clueless LEO, or one that doesn't have a full understanding of the exceptions to the mandatory bike lane law.
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Old 07-07-13, 03:10 PM   #312
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The argument is bollocks, but that hasn't stopped people from making it.
Only a troll would equate the suggestion that a dutch city bike is not ideal for hilly commutes with the assertion "that a Dutch city bike is too heavy to be ridden in the USA".
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Old 07-07-13, 03:14 PM   #313
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I can see this issue to a degree, especially with the thought of having to deal with a clueless LEO, or one that doesn't have a full understanding of the exceptions to the mandatory bike lane law.
Agreed, but I don't think that issue goes away with no "mandatory bike lane use" law. The reality is that few LEOs take the time to learn and understand bike laws because it just isn't that important to them. Bicycle riders aren't a huge menace to public peace.

But if a police officer really wants to mess with someone, there's usually a way for them to do it, no bicycle required.
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Old 07-07-13, 03:16 PM   #314
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Only a troll would equate the suggestion that a dutch city bike is not ideal for hilly commutes with the assertion "that a Dutch city bike is too heavy to be ridden in the USA".

Get over yourself already. "Not ideal" isn't how it was described. Only a troll would interpret the arguments against city bikes made in this thread as claiming they are merely "not ideal."
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Old 07-07-13, 03:55 PM   #315
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Agreed, but I don't think that issue goes away with no "mandatory bike lane use" law. The reality is that few LEOs take the time to learn and understand bike laws because it just isn't that important to them. Bicycle riders aren't a huge menace to public peace.

But if a police officer really wants to mess with someone, there's usually a way for them to do it, no bicycle required.
With a mandatory bike lane law in place, the odds of being cited for not using it goes up considerably, and many LEOs are not fully versed in the exceptions to mandatory bike lane law, or may have a different view point on what constitutes an exception.
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Old 07-07-13, 04:07 PM   #316
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With a mandatory bike lane law in place, the odds of being cited for not using it goes up considerably, and many LEOs are not fully versed in the exceptions to mandatory bike lane law, or may have a different view point on what constitutes an exception.
Fair point, but ultimately, what constitutes an exception is between you, the prosecutor, and the judge. Personally, I like my chances in that situation. And it wouldn't take many cyclists beating their tickets before the police learned that the law doesn't actually require cyclists to use the bike lane, except in rather limited circumstances.
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Old 07-07-13, 04:24 PM   #317
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Fair point, but ultimately, what constitutes an exception is between you, the prosecutor, and the judge. Personally, I like my chances in that situation. And it wouldn't take many cyclists beating their tickets before the police learned that the law doesn't actually require cyclists to use the bike lane, except in rather limited circumstances.

There is where we get back to the issue of having to fight it out in court, and law enforcement can issue me more tickets than I personally have time to care in going to go to court for, and wondering if I'm going to win.

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Old 07-07-13, 04:34 PM   #318
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There is where we get back to the issue of having to fight it out in court, and law enforcement can issue me more tickets than I personally have to time to care in going to go to court for, and wondering if I'm going to win.
That argument can be made about any law. The right to go to court is a Very Good Thing. It isn't rational to oppose bike infrastructure simply because there exists the chance that someone may be ticketed unjustifiably. That's going to happen with or without bike infrastructure.
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Old 07-07-13, 04:40 PM   #319
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That argument can be made about any law. The right to go to court is a Very Good Thing. It seems ridiculous for someone to oppose bike infrastructure simply because there exists the chance that someone may be ticketed unjustifiably. That's going to happen with or without bike infrastructure.
Again, it's not about cycling infrastructure itself, but making it mandatory to ride there, even with exceptions in place, one can be more severely limited in the times in choosing to not use it. Plus, not all cycling infrastructure is well thought out, but the mandatory law makes it so that it practically takes an act of Congress to be able to circumvent a poor cycling infrastructure design.
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Old 07-07-13, 04:47 PM   #320
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Again, it's not about cycling infrastructure itself, but making it mandatory to ride there, even with exceptions in place, one can be more severely limited in the times in choosing to not use it. Plus, not all cycling infrastructure is well thought out, but the mandatory law makes it so that it practically takes an act of Congress to be able to circumvent a poor cycling infrastructure design.
It isn't being made "mandatory." The loopholes are far too broad and numerous to credibly claim otherwise.
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Old 07-07-13, 04:56 PM   #321
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It wasn't you who said it. B. Carfree seems to be concerned that additional bicycle infrastructure will force him off the road, but there isn't any reason to believe that to be the case.
I don't know what you need for warning signs, but all over the USA states and localities are passing "must use" laws where there are cycle paths. This is a new and growing trend, but I guess some people won't see it until all state have must use laws, and then decide that shared use of roads just isn't safe.

If the rational for separate cycle infrastructure is safety, then by logical extension it makes sense to get bikes off the roads altogether --- for the cyclists own good.

I'm not categorically opposed to cycle infrastructure, but we need to be clear when and why it should be built, lest we fall into a trap of our own making.
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Old 07-07-13, 05:06 PM   #322
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It isn't being made "mandatory." The loopholes are far too broad and numerous to credibly claim otherwise.
The state that B.Carfree resides has a "mandatory use" law, and I can partially see his taking issue with cycling infrastructure, loop holes or not. Again, not all US cycling infrastructure is designed with the cyclist's needs in mind, and can be made worse if one has to chose between setting a court date or being subordinate.
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Old 07-07-13, 05:07 PM   #323
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I don't know what you need for warning signs, but all over the USA states and localities are passing "must use" laws where there are cycle paths. This is a new and growing trend, but I guess some people won't see it until all state have must use laws, and then decide that shared use of roads just isn't safe.

If the rational for separate cycle infrastructure is safety, then by logical extension it makes sense to get bikes off the roads altogether --- for the cyclists own good.

I'm not categorically opposed to cycle infrastructure, but we need to be clear when and why it should be built, lest we fall into a trap of our own making.
It's not a new trend. There are lots of "cyclists must ride right unless …" and "cyclists must use bike lane unless …" laws. The "unless …" aspect of them leaves such requirements toothless.

In this state, I am "required" to ride right, but the non-exhaustive list of reasons freeing me from that requirement is long enough that, in reality, it is extremely rare that I am actually required to ride right.

Sure, there is always going to be a subset of LEOs who just want to be jerks, but that's going to be true no matter what the laws are.
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Old 07-07-13, 05:20 PM   #324
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maybe in springfield, mo this is the case but its simply not the case in potland or eugene (~10% ACS mode share). some of the most conflict prone parts of my commute are regions where i avoid poorly-designed cycle tracks and have to suffer the honks and insults of misinformed motorists.
How many traffic tickets have you had to "suffer" because of Oregon traffic codes about bike lanes?
What makes you think the horns and insults you "suffer" are the result of Oregon traffic codes? Maybe there is something else about you or your riding style that earns you more insults and horns than other cyclists suffer in other locations with or without bike lanes.
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Old 07-07-13, 05:21 PM   #325
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There is where we get back to the issue of having to fight it out in court, and law enforcement can issue me more tickets than I personally have time to care in going to go to court for, and wondering if I'm going to win.
Have you received any such traffic tickets?
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