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  1. #376
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaywalk3r View Post
    Would you care to list some cities that have seen large increases in bicycle modal share prior to installing infrastructure?
    Most American college towns in the late '60s through early '70s. During that 'bike boom' era bicycle use expanded greatly even though there was virtually no bicycle specific infrastructure in most of the country (Davis, Ca being an exception). I lived in Fargo, ND at that time and saw bicycle use increase by at least an order of magnitude with no infrastructure other than a few bike racks at schools and campus buildings.

    One factor that's frequently not acknowledged in encouraging a growth in bicycle mode share is having policies that discourage car use by making it either inconvenient or expensive. College campuses are one example where restrictions on on-campus use of cars by students, limited parking space, and expensive parking permits lead to much greater use of bicycles for transportation even if no bicycle infrastructure is provided (although that does tend to also appear on campuses - but in response to demand rather than as a catalyst for it).

  2. #377
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaywalk3r View Post
    Really? Please, explain to the rest of us how the correlation is unclear.
    Apart from the fact that you are incapable of understanding the distinction between fully segregated infrastructure and other types of infrastructure as well as traffic calming, road diets, parking elmination, legal reform, gas taxes, and vehicle excise taxes you do realize you linking to a rather infamous personality:

    http://bikeyface.com/2012/02/03/so-ladies/
    Road rash is a precious gift. Road rash is your friend. Bask in it, appreciate it, love it. Above all, learn from it. --Robert Hurst

  3. #378
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr_pedro View Post
    Here is what the Dutch department of Transport has to say about cycling in the Netherlands:
    http://www.fietsberaad.nl/library/re...rlands2009.pdf

    ah! mr pedro finds an unbiased source.
    Road rash is a precious gift. Road rash is your friend. Bask in it, appreciate it, love it. Above all, learn from it. --Robert Hurst

  4. #379
    Cycle Year Round CB HI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    Apart from the fact that you are incapable of understanding the distinction between fully segregated infrastructure and other types of infrastructure as well as traffic calming, road diets, parking elmination, legal reform, gas taxes, and vehicle excise taxes you do realize you linking to a rather infamous personality:

    http://bikeyface.com/2012/02/03/so-ladies/
    Jaywalk3r has pretty much proven himself to be either totally clueless, a troll or both.

    Amazing he cannot even provide the street and cross street of the >12% grade hill he routinely rides. Implies troll.

    Yet he seems to truly believe some of the other completely absurd cycling claims. Clueless who believes his own misguided statements.

    It is so close to having our friend Bek in this thread.
    Land of the Free, Because of the Brave.

  5. #380
    Cycle Year Round CB HI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by corvuscorvax View Post
    And to think I'd been ignoring this thread! It's pure gold ... only on BF would somebody honestly think the Higgs Boson and General Relativity are germane to a discussion about cycling in the Netherlands.

    Dude, we know everything we need to know about gravity as it applies to cycling. The expansion of the universe (accelerating or not) will not change how you get up that hill. Neither will the Higgs boson.
    "Dude, check the thread, I did not start the gravity or Higgs Boson discussion."



    Quote Originally Posted by corvuscorvax View Post
    I'm still trying to figure out what it is we don't understand about gravity that is in any way relevant to cycling. Relativity certainly isn't, unless you're a much faster cyclist than me, or a whole lot denser.
    So you have reading comprehension problems as well. I did not start the gravity/physics discussion. Take your problem up with Jaywalk3r.
    Land of the Free, Because of the Brave.

  6. #381
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prathmann View Post
    Most American college towns in the late '60s through early '70s. During that 'bike boom' era bicycle use expanded greatly even though there was virtually no bicycle specific infrastructure in most of the country (Davis, Ca being an exception). I lived in Fargo, ND at that time and saw bicycle use increase by at least an order of magnitude with no infrastructure other than a few bike racks at schools and campus buildings.

    One factor that's frequently not acknowledged in encouraging a growth in bicycle mode share is having policies that discourage car use by making it either inconvenient or expensive. College campuses are one example where restrictions on on-campus use of cars by students, limited parking space, and expensive parking permits lead to much greater use of bicycles for transportation even if no bicycle infrastructure is provided (although that does tend to also appear on campuses - but in response to demand rather than as a catalyst for it).
    While it is true that bike infrastructure alone does not increase modal share, it is highly unlikely that any modal share increase would be sustained without societal support... such as political and infrastructure. At the same token it is unlikely that infrastructure alone will increase modal share for cyclists... this was demonstrated in Davis where the infrastructure didn't really change, but modal share went down due to more acceptance of motorists around campus.

    But on the flip side, no area has sustained an increase in modal share without a subsequent increase in cycling specific infrastructure.

  7. #382
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    Quote Originally Posted by genec View Post
    But on the flip side, no area has sustained an increase in modal share without a subsequent increase in cycling specific infrastructure.
    Oregon just passed a law that opens up the use of lottery money for bike projects. Interestingly, one of the arguments used by state reps was that chamber of commerces support cycling. This would not have happened without a lot of cyclist dollars spent. We advocates need to focus more on these kind of self-reinforcing feedback loops.
    Road rash is a precious gift. Road rash is your friend. Bask in it, appreciate it, love it. Above all, learn from it. --Robert Hurst

  8. #383
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    Quote Originally Posted by prathmann View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaywalk3r
    Would you care to list some cities that have seen large increases in bicycle modal share prior to installing infrastructure?
    Most American college towns in the late '60s through early '70s. During that 'bike boom' era bicycle use expanded greatly even though there was virtually no bicycle specific infrastructure in most of the country (Davis, Ca being an exception). I lived in Fargo, ND at that time and saw bicycle use increase by at least an order of magnitude with no infrastructure other than a few bike racks at schools and campus buildings.

    One factor that's frequently not acknowledged in encouraging a growth in bicycle mode share is having policies that discourage car use by making it either inconvenient or expensive. College campuses are one example where restrictions on on-campus use of cars by students, limited parking space, and expensive parking permits lead to much greater use of bicycles for transportation even if no bicycle infrastructure is provided (although that does tend to also appear on campuses - but in response to demand rather than as a catalyst for it).
    Have you any examples from the most recent quarter century?

    Populations have increased substantially since the early 70s, as has traffic congestion in the USA. That was a time when a considerable percentage of kids walked and biked to school, which is now rather uncommon.

    How high has bike modal share remained in most American college towns since the early 70s? At the university where I study and work, it's pretty dismal. At my previous university, in a different region of the country, it was almost non-existent.
    Maintain your equipment. Plan your routes well. Practice stoppies often. Keep your head on a swivel.

  9. #384
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    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    Apart from the fact that you are incapable of understanding the distinction between fully segregated infrastructure and other types of infrastructure as well as traffic calming, road diets, parking elmination, legal reform, gas taxes, and vehicle excise taxes you do realize you linking to a rather infamous personality:

    http://bikeyface.com/2012/02/03/so-ladies/
    No, I'm not incapable of understanding the difference between different types of bike infrastructure.

    Do you have any actual rebuttal to any of those studies, or are you going to rely on your genetic logical fallacy?
    Maintain your equipment. Plan your routes well. Practice stoppies often. Keep your head on a swivel.

  10. #385
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    Quote Originally Posted by CB HI View Post
    Jaywalk3r has pretty much proven himself to be either totally clueless, a troll or both.
    Sayeth the poster who relies on ad hominem attacks to try to make his points.

    Amazing he cannot even provide the street and cross street of the >12% grade hill he routinely rides. Implies troll.
    So, when are you going to come and ride with me on a hot summer day? Show some backbone and back up all the smack you talk.
    Maintain your equipment. Plan your routes well. Practice stoppies often. Keep your head on a swivel.

  11. #386
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    Quote Originally Posted by CB HI View Post
    "Dude, check the thread, I did not start the gravity or Higgs Boson discussion."
    You only demonstrated that you know nothing about science.
    Maintain your equipment. Plan your routes well. Practice stoppies often. Keep your head on a swivel.

  12. #387
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaywalk3r View Post
    Do you have any actual rebuttal to any of those studies, or are you going to rely on your genetic logical fallacy?
    Road rash is a precious gift. Road rash is your friend. Bask in it, appreciate it, love it. Above all, learn from it. --Robert Hurst

  13. #388
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    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaywalk3r View Post
    Do you have any actual rebuttal to any of those studies, or are you going to rely on your genetic logical fallacy?
    It's actually pretty funny that you, someone apparently incapable of forming a cogent argument to rebut the content of posts, should accuse me of trolling. Care to actually address the topic, or are you going to continue hiding behind your ad hominem attacks?
    Last edited by Jaywalk3r; 07-09-13 at 01:16 PM.
    Maintain your equipment. Plan your routes well. Practice stoppies often. Keep your head on a swivel.

  14. #389
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    Quote Originally Posted by CB HI View Post
    So you have reading comprehension problems as well. I did not start the gravity/physics discussion. Take your problem up with Jaywalk3r.
    Jaywalk3r is completely clueless, but you have managed to utterly outdo him or her in general incoherence: And yes, it was you who, as far as I can tell, brought up the expansion of the universe, E=mc^2, gravity being a "pushing" force (whatever the hell that means), etc.

    Please stop. It hurts our brains.

    Sincerely,

    The Math People
    Last edited by corvuscorvax; 07-09-13 at 01:31 PM.
    My speculation was that it applies to some degree in cycling, and I used the previous proof as my reasoning, but I can't prove how exactly it applies to it and to what degree. That, I have admitted, is speculation based on reasoning, but not at this point provable.

  15. #390
    Senior Member seafood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaywalk3r View Post
    Have you any examples from the most recent quarter century?

    Populations have increased substantially since the early 70s, as has traffic congestion in the USA. That was a time when a considerable percentage of kids walked and biked to school, which is now rather uncommon.

    How high has bike modal share remained in most American college towns since the early 70s? At the university where I study and work, it's pretty dismal. At my previous university, in a different region of the country, it was almost non-existent.
    Let's think about why we're discussing this point. This was brought up in the context of taking correlation with a grain of salt, in looking at large ridership figures accompanied by infrastructure build-outs. Rather than trying to argue whether there's a causation there or if there is absolutely none, let's flip it around and see if there are any studies specifically focused on causation and riding behaviors, shall we? I did a quick search and found one such study. Do read the methodology and other details, but I found the following interesting:

    Results:
    Cyclists participating in the study to date recorded over 1,500 bicycle trips. For these trips, the two most important factors influencing route choice were avoiding streets with lots of vehicle traffic and minimizing total distance. Both factors scored an average of 3.5 on a 1-5 scale (1=not at all important, 5=very important). Riding in a bike lane ranked third (2.9), closely followed by reducing wait time due to stop signs/lights (2.7). The final paper will include analysis of the GPS data, answering the research questions.
    What I find pertinent to this discussion is that cyclists value avoiding high-traffic areas and shortening the trip more than seeking out bicycle-specific infrastructure. That's not to say that if such infrastructure weren't built into an unavoidable high-traffic route, that perhaps more people will ride, but it does seem to also indicate that taking holistic measures to manage driving patterns benefits cycling overall. I'm just starting to look at the study (check the full PDF), but this is how I'm currently reading their synopsis.

  16. #391
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    Quote Originally Posted by corvuscorvax View Post
    And to think I'd been ignoring this thread! It's pure gold ... only on BF would somebody honestly think the Higgs Boson and General Relativity are germane to a discussion about cycling in the Netherlands.

    Dude, we know everything we need to know about gravity as it applies to cycling. The expansion of the universe (accelerating or not) will not change how you get up that hill. Neither will the Higgs boson.
    "Dude, check the thread, I did not start the gravity or Higgs Boson discussion."



    Quote Originally Posted by corvuscorvax View Post
    I'm still trying to figure out what it is we don't understand about gravity that is in any way relevant to cycling. Relativity certainly isn't, unless you're a much faster cyclist than me, or a whole lot denser.
    So you have reading comprehension problems as well. I did not start the gravity/physics discussion. Take your problem up with Jaywalk3r.

    Quote Originally Posted by corvuscorvax View Post
    Jaywalk3r is completely clueless, but you have managed to utterly outdo him or her in general incoherence: And yes, it was you who, as far as I can tell, brought up the expansion of the universe, E=mc^2, gravity being a "pushing" force (whatever the hell that means), etc.

    Please stop. It hurts our brains.

    Sincerely,

    The Math People
    Proving your reading comprehension problems as Jaywalk3r started his hills are like riding flat ground gravity BS on page 3 post 74.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaywalk3r View Post
    Need some cheese with your whine? Having ridden in very hilly and very flat environments, hills are overrated as a formidable challenge. Sure, they may suck while climbing, but descending is much easier than cycling in flatlands. Gravity is a conservative force.
    And everyone please note this is the post starting the attacks in this thread, before he complains about being attacked.


    Quote Originally Posted by corvuscorvax View Post
    Jaywalk3r is completely clueless,

    gravity being a "pushing" force (whatever the hell that means)

    Please stop. It hurts our brains.

    Sincerely,

    The Math People
    The reasons The Math People should stay away from physics. They can do the theoretical math but have no clue what it means in the real world.
    Land of the Free, Because of the Brave.

  17. #392
    Cycle Year Round CB HI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaywalk3r View Post
    Sayeth the poster who relies on ad hominem attacks to try to make his points.
    Says the guy that started the BS.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaywalk3r View Post
    So, when are you going to come and ride with me on a hot summer day? Show some backbone and back up all the smack you talk.
    Having done some extreme physical exertion in the Philippines during their hot season, lets do your stupid challenge there. It certainly beats Springfield, MO in heat and humidity by a long shot.

    Still no street and cross street of the >12% grade hill he routinely rides!
    Land of the Free, Because of the Brave.

  18. #393
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    Quote Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
    So darn what that you ride a bike, rather than drive, does that give you extra special status to disparage anybody who is not just like you as "lazy" ? Those people you have deemed as lazy may think you are a JackAss, so what?

    Maybe some other Jackass thinks that anybody who bikes to work rather than run all the way is a lazy jerk, so what?
    Not at all... But, when people consider 3 miles "Too far", and "I just don't feel like it"... That's laziness, no matter how you slice it.

    Shy of one person, nobody has ever said to me they don't bike more because the streets are too dangerous. It's always a remix of "I just don't feel like it, I'd rather drive". That's laziness.

  19. #394
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    Quote Originally Posted by squirtdad View Post
    I can say that for me..repeat for me, the cotton gramicci shorts I wear for commuting and most errand riding are great up to about 10 miles anything beyond that they become uncomfortable...especially if it is hot.

    I would guess i am not in the minority this way, but the big point is what works for you may not work for others.

    If you can do 20 or a 100 miles in non bike specific gear....good for you, but don't assume that it works for anyone else.
    Like I said, whatever floats your boat. To me, it just seems, excessive. Again, whatever floats your boat.

  20. #395
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UberGeek View Post
    Not at all... But, when people consider 3 miles "Too far", and "I just don't feel like it"... That's laziness, no matter how you slice it.

    Shy of one person, nobody has ever said to me they don't bike more because the streets are too dangerous. It's always a remix of "I just don't feel like it, I'd rather drive". That's laziness.
    Here, I'll say it. I don't bike commute any more because it is too dangerous. I swim a mile in the ocean each day, so it is NOT about laziness for me. It IS about riding a bike on high speed arterial roads that are filled with cell phone using drivers that DO NOT pay attention. I bike in other safer areas, but I no longer bike commute daily.

    I have bike commuted for nearly 30 years, longer if you consider my cycling to school as a young lad. I have done long distance tours. I am a very experienced cyclist. But the location of my office in amongst several high speed (50MPH) wide arterial roads and several recent close calls with cell phone idiots has changed my mind.

    The road speeds are too high, there are no escape areas due to curbs and walls, and drivers are too aggressive and do not pay attention. (poor traffic layout causes high frustration in the motorists and they get very aggressive trying to go home) Experienced cyclists have been killed on my routes in recent years; it just adds up to too much risk.

    A bike boulevard or off road path would make the difference for me... heck, a slower street would make a difference.

    I have showers and inside bike racks at work. The ONLY reason I do not ride there is the due to the layout of the roads and traffic.

    Oh and I am not alone in thinking this... there are other cyclists at my office that will not bike commute due to the traffic conditions... it is too autocentric.
    Last edited by genec; 07-10-13 at 07:31 AM.

  21. #396
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    A bike boulevard or off road path would make the difference for me... heck, a slower street would make a difference.
    This is exactly why I always prioritize construction of a minimal infrastructure network over a few short and disconnected stretches of poorly-designed "world class" cycle tracks. Even in Portland, distal areas have absolutely no infrastructure. Not even one bleeding splash of paint. Its absolutely maddening to me that so-called advocates want to spend millions on cycle tracks in wealthy neighborhoods (that are already carpeted with infrastructure) while poorer neighborhoods get absolutely nothing.
    Road rash is a precious gift. Road rash is your friend. Bask in it, appreciate it, love it. Above all, learn from it. --Robert Hurst

  22. #397
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    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    This is exactly why I always prioritize construction of a minimal infrastructure network over a few short and disconnected stretches of poorly-designed "world class" cycle tracks. Even in Portland, distal areas have absolutely no infrastructure. Not even one bleeding splash of paint. Its absolutely maddening to me that so-called advocates want to spend millions on cycle tracks in wealthy neighborhoods (that are already carpeted with infrastructure) while poorer neighborhoods get absolutely nothing.
    But the poor neighborhoods get all the refineries and whatnot, so they shouldn't complain.

  23. #398
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    This is exactly why I always prioritize construction of a minimal infrastructure network over a few short and disconnected stretches of poorly-designed "world class" cycle tracks. Even in Portland, distal areas have absolutely no infrastructure. Not even one bleeding splash of paint. Its absolutely maddening to me that so-called advocates want to spend millions on cycle tracks in wealthy neighborhoods (that are already carpeted with infrastructure) while poorer neighborhoods get absolutely nothing.
    I can see your point... however the goal should always be to try to connect those routes... rather than achieving a disconnected patchwork of stuff that almost works.

    I do agree that a bike highway that only serves one route may not seem the best solution, but I always envision such a bike highway to work just as the automotive highways... in that if it is well connected to to other streets/paths/bike boulevards, it provides a safe and fast route for commuters. The key is that such a bike highway has to be well connected. A cycle track through a park that has no inlets or outlets along the way is just a folly. (there are plenty of large city parks that have limited entrances and exits... Central Park in NYC and Golden Gate Park in SF are prime examples)

  24. #399
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    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    This is exactly why I always prioritize construction of a minimal infrastructure network over a few short and disconnected stretches of poorly-designed "world class" cycle tracks. Even in Portland, distal areas have absolutely no infrastructure. Not even one bleeding splash of paint. Its absolutely maddening to me that so-called advocates want to spend millions on cycle tracks in wealthy neighborhoods (that are already carpeted with infrastructure) while poorer neighborhoods get absolutely nothing.
    Which of the potential solutions mentioned by Genec would fall under the classification of "minimal infrastructure"?

    Bike boulevards?

    Off road paths?

    Or "street slowing"?

    Or is there another minimal infrastructure you would recommend in the case he mentions?

    Did I miss something but I don't see where Genec makes mention of the economic status of the area in question.

    Here in Boston areas challenged economically have been made accessible by bike infrastructure and are often mentioned in terms of targeted areas for even more infrastructure. I live in an upscale area on the outside of Boston, Newton, which has minimal bike infrastructure. As I ride into Boston I don't get any kind of bike lane or sharrow until I get to Brighton and Allston, both communities have high student and immigrant populations and have higher concentrations of low income residents.

    Fortunately, the disparity you mention is not as pronounced in either Boston or NYC, the two cities I commute in most regularly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by seafood View Post
    Is this the right time to remind everyone that even if you find correlation, you don't have causation? In other words, you might have a municipality investing into bicycle infrastructure because it is being demanded by uptick of ridership within driving, riding, and voting populace. Just sayin'.
    Even in Portland ... Bike people were moving to Portland from all over the country before Portland got all excited about building bike infrastructure.

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